Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XXXIX

[Riche16]

You know it's funny, we sometimes lose sight of the timelines associated with other teams.

Toronto is a team that picked in the top 10 six times between 2008 and 2016, and five of those guys are still on their roster. Tampa picked in the top 10 five times between 2008 and 2013. Winnipeg has picked in the top 10 seven times between 2008 and 2016.

Regardless of how one views their ability to identify and draft talent, we can't ignore that they also had some prime cut opportunities as well.

In the case of Dubas and Yzerman, it's difficult to cast aside what was already in the cupboard when they took over. If anything, I think inheriting and not converting has the potential to deduct a few points from their scores, if these things remain unchanged.

By comparison, right now we're looking at our third top 10 selection in as many years--- including one that we acquired, but didn't receive based on our performance. So, there is a bit of a difference there.

I also think it highlights the need for time and patience with this process. If we're going to compare ourselves to some of these teams, we also need to take into account the journeys to reach their present state. They weren't overnight successes, and whether their approach truly works is still an unknown.

Which is why the patience crowd keeps preaching patience and the accelerate wants to buy Panarin and Karlsson and SPEND incredible assets on Trouba.

The best way to f*** up a rebuild is to rush it.

 

[True Blue]

Dubas, not unlike Yzerman, inherited a hell of a foundation to build on - but that's a double-edged sword. If he's unable to convert that inheritance into meaningful progress, and grow his team's fortunes, his performance is going to come under increased scrutiny - especially in that market.

I think that is one thing that people miss when talking about Gorton. He inherited an absolutely barren farm system and no high end players.

 

[True Blue]

The best way to **** up a rebuild is to rush it.

Yet another statement that needs to be gold plated and periodically trotted out over the next year or so.

 

[Thirty One]

So if they get Fox it’s him Shatty , DeAngelo in Rd w Smith a spare

Trade Pionk for what ?

I'm all good with trading Pionk, but if they do, I'm sure they are going to acquire a penalty-killing RHD to play defensive minutes. Quinn had a tough time finding the sheltered minutes for both Shattenkirk and DeAngelo, adding Fox to that would make him feel

 

[Thirty One]

I think that is one thing that people miss when talking about Gorton. He inherited an absolutely barren farm system and no high end players.

But with lots of tradable NHL talent.

 

[Off Sides]

I'd like to see DeAngelo tried on the PK, no idea if he'd be good at it but why not give it a go?

I'm not sure if any of the D are really good at it anyway, at least I don't really consider Pionk to have been good at it.

 

[Edge]

I think that is one thing that people miss when talking about Gorton. He inherited an absolutely barren farm system and no high end players.

Gorton is doing the work to get the Rangers to where Tampa and Toronto were when guys like Yzerman and Dubas took over.

That's an important distinction to recognize and understand.

 

[True Blue]

But with lots of tradable NHL talent.

Tradeable talent, yes. Am not debating that. But there is also no debating that he inherited a fairly week overall team and a barren system.

One of the things that stands out to me so far, and the entire rebuild is still in the too early to tell stage, is that he seems to be maximizing on the assets coming back for his tradeable assets.

 

[True Blue]

Gorton is doing the work to get the Rangers to where Tampa and Toronto were when guys like Yzerman and Dubas took over.

That's an important distinction to recognize and understand.

Agreed. And, IMO, that is a much harder mountain to cross.

 

[Kovalev27]

You guys gotta listen to John Scott’s podcast about torts and slats if you haven’t already. Unreal

Slats trades for him never told torts. Just told him he always wants the toughest guy in the league on his team lol.

Torts hated Scott. Hated Gaborik fought with him every day. Amazing listen lol

 

[Edge]

But with lots of tradable NHL talent.

Very true, but then you have to go out and actually execute said trades and get talent.

Despite a lot of doubts and tongue lashings on here, the general consensus is that he's done (at least) a very good job on value.

I think Gorton's career arch isn't all that different than how we treat our prospects.

When he was the AGM, people couldn't wait for him to be GM, he was a promising young executive, etc. etc

Then he got to the NHL, we stopped with the bullshit fantasy league nonsense, and suddenly he became a real person again. So then we went the other way and wanted to find any reason as to why he wasn't going to be the Christ child of hockey operations.

Now things are starting to shift back to the middle again as people start to get behind what's happening.

But there's always this inherent urge to hedge against anyone we have once we've moved them out of the hypothetical range. We do it with staff, players, prospects, etc.

We develop crushes on the hypothetical and then get ADHD when it comes to the day-to-day reality.

 

[Edge]

You guys gotta listen to John Scott’s podcast about torts and slats if you haven’t already. Unreal

Slats trades for him never told torts. Just told him he always wants the toughest guy in the league on his team lol.

Torts hated Scott. Hated Gaborik fought with him every day. Amazing listen lol

Torts is a guy with a limited shelf-life. He's capable of getting great results in short time frames, but once that time frame is up it is honestly and truly up.

 

[DanielBrassard]

I think the Leafs build kind of shows the risks of trying to add established NHLers to take advantage of other entry level contracts when the rest of the team in not really on solid footing.

By being one of the best teams in the NHL and playing game 7 against another great team in Boston? I don't see how it shows that at all.

 

[Thirty One]

Very true, but then you have to go out and actually execute said trades and get talent.

Despite a lot of doubts and tongue lashings on here, the general consensus is that he's done (at least) a very good job on value.

I think Gorton's career arch isn't all that different than how we treat our prospects.

When he was the AGM, people couldn't wait for him to be GM, he was a promising young executive, etc. etc

Then he got to the NHL, we stopped with the bull**** fantasy league nonsense, and suddenly he became a real person again. So then we went the other way and wanted to find any reason as to why he wasn't going to be the Christ child of hockey operations.

Now things are starting to shift back to the middle again as people start to get behind what's happening.

But there's always this inherent urge to hedge against anyone we have once we've moved them out of the hypothetical range. We do it with staff, players, prospects, etc.

We develop crushes on the hypothetical and then get ADHD when it comes to the day-to-day reality.

Heroes and villains. Remember when Don Maloney was assistant GM? Every good move was him and every bad move was Sather. That carried over a little to Sather/Gorton. Wonder how the dynamic will be with Gorton/JD. There's normally one assistant coach that bears a disproportionate amount of the blame too. Perry Pearn, Mike Sullivan (lol), Scott Arniel, and now Lindy Ruff.

 

[Gardner McKay]

I'm all good with trading Pionk, but if they do, I'm sure they are going to acquire a penalty-killing RHD to play defensive minutes. Quinn had a tough time finding the sheltered minutes for both Shattenkirk and DeAngelo, adding Fox to that would make him feel

I know this is easier said than done and it is also going to cause certain folks to have a minor stroke but... they need a young Dan Girardi.

 

[Gardner McKay]

Very true, but then you have to go out and actually execute said trades and get talent.

Despite a lot of doubts and tongue lashings on here, the general consensus is that he's done (at least) a very good job on value.

I think Gorton's career arch isn't all that different than how we treat our prospects.

When he was the AGM, people couldn't wait for him to be GM, he was a promising young executive, etc. etc

Then he got to the NHL, we stopped with the bull**** fantasy league nonsense, and suddenly he became a real person again. So then we went the other way and wanted to find any reason as to why he wasn't going to be the Christ child of hockey operations.

Now things are starting to shift back to the middle again as people start to get behind what's happening.

But there's always this inherent urge to hedge against anyone we have once we've moved them out of the hypothetical range. We do it with staff, players, prospects, etc.

We develop crushes on the hypothetical and then get ADHD when it comes to the day-to-day reality.

Give me 10 years and I don't think I could have done a better job than you did of describing a major issue among fans.

 

[DanielBrassard]

I know this is easier said than done and it is also going to cause certain folks to have a minor stroke but... they need a young Dan Girardi.

There are so many better examples lol. They just need a good defenseman.

 

[Thirty One]

I know this is easier said than done and it is also going to cause certain folks to have a minor stroke but... they need a young Dan Girardi.

Ehhh… I'll take a young Stralman.

 

[Gardner McKay]

Heroes and villains. Remember when Don Maloney was assistant GM? Every good move was him and every bad move was Sather. That carried over a little to Sather/Gorton. Wonder how the dynamic will be with Gorton/JD. There's normally one assistant coach that bears a disproportionate amount of the blame too. Perry Pearn, Mike Sullivan (lol), Scott Arniel, and now Lindy Ruff.

And players. It was Marek Malik. Then it was someone else. Then it was Pyatt. Then it was Glass. And so on. People always need a scapegoat. They need someone to blame so they can shield themselves from the reality of the situation.

 

[Gardner McKay]

Ehhh… I'll take a young Stralman.

Fine. You know where I was going with that

There are so many better examples lol. They just need a good defenseman.

I think people forget that Girardi was actually a good defenseman early on. Solid. Unspectacular.

 

[Off Sides]

By being one of the best teams in the NHL and playing game 7 against another great team in Boston? I don't see how it shows that at all.

How did Boston beat them? They don't have any 10-11M cap hit players, and the few that could maybe command that level of cap hit seem to have signed for less. Somehow even Pastrnak who put up 70 in his last entry level contract year signed just last year to 6.6M. Possible he was more willing to do so because he did not see Boston spend 11M on anyone else?

 

[QJL]

So if they get Fox it’s him Shatty , DeAngelo in Rd w Smith a spare

Trade Pionk for what ?

Keep Pionk as the 7D. Shattenkirk could fall off a cliff at any minute and Pionk is a passable bottom pair when used in a purely offensive role (which hasn’t happened).

Lundkvist and Seider will push him out eventually anyways...

 

[duhmetreE]

You guys gotta listen to John Scott’s podcast about torts and slats if you haven’t already. Unreal

Slats trades for him never told torts. Just told him he always wants the toughest guy in the league on his team lol.

Torts hated Scott. Hated Gaborik fought with him every day. Amazing listen lol

The difference between Quinn and Torts... Quinn would actually get Gaborik to work hard

 

[Fitzy]

Torts is a guy with a limited shelf-life. He's capable of getting great results in short time frames, but once that time frame is up it is honestly and truly up.

The same can be said of a lot of NHL coaches, to be honest.

Torts is a duck and not everyone respects him, but he must have been doing something right all these years.

 

[Thirty One]

How did Boston beat them? They don't have any 10-11M cap hit players, and the few that could maybe command that level of cap hit seem to have signed for less. Somehow even Pastrnak who put up 70 in his last entry level contract year signed just last year to 6.6M. Possible he was more willing to do so because he did not see Boston spend 11M on anyone else?

Boston wanted Tavares too.