Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XV

[East Coast Bias]

Good point. McQuaid is McQuaid. He just really has to prove he’s well.

Tony D and Pionk are both 23 years old, and RFAs after this season.

Finding out exactly what we have in each is really important to this rebuild. We need as much of a body of work from this season as we can get on each.

I know we tend to tie the rebuild to draft picks, and that's true to an extent, but the development of what we have is just as important. Far more important to me than a mid round pick we may get for McQ. If the risk is a 4/5th instead of a potential 3rd by playing ADA over him all season, I'm willing to take that risk.

 

[Ghost of jas]

I would give up Cody McLeod, Adam McQuaid, or Marc Staal for Kyle Clifford.

I’d give all of them up for Clifford.

 

[I Eat Crow]

Parodies?

All in good fun on my end.

A couple of serious questions. How do you feel about giving a player coming off of an ELC a long term deal in excess of $10 million a year?

Also, what are your thoughts on Kreider? Trade him or try to extend him?

 

[DutchShamrock]

Every post is trade Zuccarello. Trade Zuccarello. Now? They waited too long. They should have traded him a while ago. Max his value. They wait until the player is on a expiring contract and his play has dropped off. Gorton made the right move with Brass for Zibanejad. So many people were against that move.

Yeah, they waited too long but the Brassard timeline was too soon for Zuccarello. Unless this is speaking in hindsight. But the team was still contending and Zuccarello helped those teams.

I thought Zucc should have gone when Stepan left, because they never replaced him. This team was going no where without another top 6 center. It was a rebuild move by a team that didn't commit to the process at the time.

FWIW, you are one of the more valuable posters here. The ability to find information is impressive. The posts this week are what I've missed. The gloating over Zuccarello, not so much. I mean, everyone will be right eventually if they predict that a player's value and performance will diminish. Keep it up, otherwise.

 

[DutchShamrock]

Seriously speaking, LeBrun has a fantastic piece on The Athletic this morning. He talks about the Nylander negotiations and how its basically a fight for the souls of the impending RFA's coming up in the next couple of years. He speculates that if Nylander gets greater than $7 million, that the market is going to be reset next year in favor of those players on expiring ELC's. Its worth a read.

Next year's RFA class is monstrous. Matthews, Marner, Rantanen, Point, Laine, Boeser, Matt Tkachuk, Kyle Conner.

How is Winnipeg going to keep both Laine and Conner? Laine is going to get $10 million. Guy has a video game addiction. Buyer beware. He can score goals but his all around play has dipped this season. Conner will earn a 7 to 8 million/year deal. I really liked him in his draft year. He and Barzal went way lower than they should have. Was hoping that the Rangers would trade into the 1st round and get one of them. Maybe Gorton is saving his chips for next year. LeBrun speculates that there will be at least a couple more Nylander-esque holdouts next season too. Gorton may be able to pounce on a player like Conner or Marner when those teams are counting pennies to sign their good young players.

This is part of the reason why I'm for lowering the UFA age. Young stars like Nylander holding out and missing half the year hurts the game and the overall product. Imagine if a player like Matthews holds out because he doesn't get his money? Disaster for Toronto and the league. Give players a little more control over their destiny.

Nice recommendation. Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like Edmonton is constantly screwing up this league. Waste so many top draft picks. Hand out stupid, over priced contracts to lock up guys like RNH, and in all honesty Draisaitl. Make stupid trades. They create bad RFA markets, create bad trade values, create black holes for talent to disappear.

And it's not just Hall, Eberle or Barzal trades. Schultz was given away. Petry. Guys they could have really used. Now the rest of the teams try to cope with this crazy league Edmonton influenced.

To your last point. I don't see that ever being something the league will entertain. I already responded to your post in the around the NHL thread, so I won't rehash it. But lowering UFA in 2005 was a mistake for the NHL and they'll view a lower age as making it worse.

 

[True Blue]

I thought Zucc should have gone when Stepan left, because they never replaced him.

I think that Gorton is waiting for the right trade/trading partner to materialize to get the best deal he can. Am guessing here, but that has probably not happened yet.

 

[NYR Viper]

All in good fun on my end.

A couple of serious questions. How do you feel about giving a player coming off of an ELC a long term deal in excess of $10 million a year?

Also, what are your thoughts on Kreider? Trade him or try to extend him?

I think those questions are too vague.

What type of player?

What does Kreider want in terms of cap hit and term?

 

[DutchShamrock]

I think that Gorton is waiting for the right trade/trading partner to materialize to get the best deal he can. Am guessing here, but that has probably not happened yet.

Yeah, I don't think its incompetence. Its definitely a trade partner situation. I thought getting zucc for 2 years would have appealed to teams but rosters are set, cap is an issue, teams want to wait till the TDL.

 

[I Eat Crow]

I think those questions are too vague.

What type of player?

What does Kreider want in terms of cap hit and term?

Fair enough.

Let's say Laine or Marner for the first one. Matthews is going to get over 10 million.

As for the second one, let's say Kreider's ask is 6 years, 7 million per.

 

[NYR Viper]

Fair enough.

Let's say Laine or Marner for the first one. Matthews is going to get over 10 million.

As for the second one, let's say Kreider's ask is 6 years, 7 million per.

I'd be hesitant to give either Marner or Laine $10m per season. Marner I'd probably go as high as $9.5 on an 8 year deal. Laine, to me, would be around $8m.

If we assume Kreider gets 30g and 30a this year, I'd probably extend him for that amount. I'd prefer 5 years, taking him to 33 rather than 34 but with his skating and work ethic outside of the rink, I'm not overly concerned with him breaking down or not keeping up as the game continues to get faster.

 

[East Coast Bias]

Seriously speaking, LeBrun has a fantastic piece on The Athletic this morning. He talks about the Nylander negotiations and how its basically a fight for the souls of the impending RFA's coming up in the next couple of years. He speculates that if Nylander gets greater than $7 million, that the market is going to be reset next year in favor of those players on expiring ELC's. Its worth a read.

Next year's RFA class is monstrous. Matthews, Marner, Rantanen, Point, Laine, Boeser, Matt Tkachuk, Kyle Conner.

How is Winnipeg going to keep both Laine and Conner? Laine is going to get $10 million. Guy has a video game addiction. Buyer beware. He can score goals but his all around play has dipped this season. Conner will earn a 7 to 8 million/year deal. I really liked him in his draft year. He and Barzal went way lower than they should have. Was hoping that the Rangers would trade into the 1st round and get one of them. Maybe Gorton is saving his chips for next year. LeBrun speculates that there will be at least a couple more Nylander-esque holdouts next season too. Gorton may be able to pounce on a player like Conner or Marner when those teams are counting pennies to sign their good young players.

This is part of the reason why I'm for lowering the UFA age. Young stars like Nylander holding out and missing half the year hurts the game and the overall product. Imagine if a player like Matthews holds out because he doesn't get his money? Disaster for Toronto and the league. Give players a little more control over their destiny.

Just got around to reading this. One part stuck out in particular. This wouldn't be a bad thing.

No, the concern would be how these second contracts suck the money out of the system for other players. And the betting money, as the game gets younger and younger, that’s the Group 3 UFA in his early 30s that begins to get squeezed.

Right now we're in a state where a lot of younger players production far exceeds their pay their first 5-6 years in the league. If they have great numbers, they then sign big deals that you get what half of back before decline sets in?

I'd rather have contracts that are bigger younger and expire at age 29, rather than paying less than market value for years then signing 26/27 year olds about to UFA to big deals.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Every post is trade Zuccarello. Trade Zuccarello. Now? They waited too long. They should have traded him a while ago. Max his value. They wait until the player is on a expiring contract and his play has dropped off. Gorton made the right move with Brass for Zibanejad. So many people were against that move.

Really I dont recall many being disappointed when that trade happened?

 

[Larrybiv]

Ryan Spooner has 4 games 0 pts -5 - so that some good news since Strome have 2 pts already with goal in 5 games -2.

Kind of not fair to Spooner. Do the Oilers have more or less talent than the Rangers? Does he have better linemates? I dunno, either way its up to him. He apparently never wants to get his hands dirty. Shame, has talent but not willing to really work for his opportunities.

 

[RGY]

Really I dont recall many being disappointed when that trade happened?

There really wasnt many disappointed. Not sure where he is getting that from. Maybe he is confusing anger with sadness that Brassard was gone and that we realized it was the beginning of the end of an era. But it was the right move.

Zucc has battled injuries over the years. He has had inconsistent play. His play and production disappear at times. I dont think they would have gotten significantly more for him had they traded whenever the hell he wanted him traded. Teams contending will panic at the deadline and overpay to secure depth on the wings for the playoff run. Salaries are prorated and more teams will have space to take on the expiring contract that might not have been able to do so before the season. There are teams right near the cap ceiling that will have more available at the deadline; SJ, DAL, TBL, BOS, VGK and even BUF.

 

[RGY]

Kind of not fair to Spooner. Do the Oilers have more or less talent than the Rangers? Does he have better linemates? I dunno, either way its up to him. He apparently never wants to get his hands dirty. Shame, has talent but not willing to really work for his opportunities.

I mean he played with McDavid last night and was uneventful. He doesnt do anything. Not sure what the advanced stats say but it sure doesnt look like he himself is driving possession.

 

[Larrybiv]

Elliot Friedman doubled down on his comment that Gorton prefers dealing at the deadline and will be content to wait. While that may be true in general, Gortom may have learned a lesson about waiting too long.

I still feel like he will deal 1 forward ahead of the TDL. Lighten the load, and open up the top 9. He needs to get LA in there and Buch will push Fast down. The market will dictate the timeline but I don't think Gorton artificially delays a trade.

I think your'e absolutely spot on. If he indeed he is offered at least what he wants in ANY 1 move, he should pull the trigger. Waiting for the tdl begs missing out on a deal. Dont want to be stuck with either, cant miss out. So, relieve some stress and do at least one. Potentially there are at least 3, maybe 4 or 5 on the to do list.

 

[Larrybiv]

I mean he played with McDavid last night and was uneventful. He doesnt do anything. Not sure what the advanced stats say but it sure doesnt look like he himself is driving possession.

He is like an opportunist. Needs that irish luck for puck to come to him, God knows he doesnt get it.

 

[Ori]

I`ve nothing against Ryan Spooner and wish him best of luck with Oilers. But concerning the hockey trade - I`ve a notion that Ryan Strome did not get out his full potential while he was with the Oilers and it`s hard to explain exact reasons why, but I believe Strome can grow and continue to develop here in a new system which is why I thought the trade was promising for us Rangers and Ryan Strome himself.

 

[Larrybiv]

I’m bored. Despite our better than expected start and positive direction, likely we’ll still be a bubble team and deadline sellers:

Likely to leave: Zuc, McQuaid

Possibles: Shatty, Staal, Smith, Hayes, Names

Outcome: I expect Zuc and McQuaid will go, Hayes will stay, and a Surprise or two like Names or Smith

Haul:
Zuc: late 1st rounder and B prospect especially if we eat some salary
McQuaid: I would settle for the purchase price but he may not get the time he needs to show value. I’d say a 4th and a contract. Maybe a 3rd if we send back a Pedrie or something.
Names: not quite worth a 1st imo so maybe we send a 3rd back to get that 1st.
Smith: I think some teams will be high on him despite remaining term. 4.35 is decent when he’s playing to capability. Maybe we retain 500k to polish it up. I’d take a 2nd with a B and C prospect here.

We lose: Zuc, Names, McQ, Smith, Pedrie, and a 3rd

We gain: 2 1sts, a 2nd, a worse 3rd, 3 prospects (2 Bs, 1C)

We buy out Staal in off season (no longer a slam dunk decision)
Sign Claesson, Hayes, other RFAs
Sign Panarin
Sign a vet RHD

Kreider Hayes Chytil
Panarin Ziba Kravtsov
Vesey Howton Buch
Strome Andersson Fast
(Lettieri, Whoever)

Skjei Pionk
Cleasson Shatty
Hajek/Rykov ADA/FA vet

Hank (Georgie/Shesty)

Waiting In the wings: we have decent D depth in Miller, Keane, Lindgren, Lundkvist but we need more higher ceiling Fs in the pipeline via the trades above or draft.

I’m bored. Despite our better than expected start and positive direction, likely we’ll still be a bubble team and deadline sellers:

Likely to leave: Zuc, McQuaid

Possibles: Shatty, Staal, Smith, Hayes, Names

Outcome: I expect Zuc and McQuaid will go, Hayes will stay, and a Surprise or two like Names or Smith

Haul:
Zuc: late 1st rounder and B prospect especially if we eat some salary
McQuaid: I would settle for the purchase price but he may not get the time he needs to show value. I’d say a 4th and a contract. Maybe a 3rd if we send back a Pedrie or something.
Names: not quite worth a 1st imo so maybe we send a 3rd back to get that 1st.
Smith: I think some teams will be high on him despite remaining term. 4.35 is decent when he’s playing to capability. Maybe we retain 500k to polish it up. I’d take a 2nd with a B and C prospect here.

We lose: Zuc, Names, McQ, Smith, Pedrie, and a 3rd

We gain: 2 1sts, a 2nd, a worse 3rd, 3 prospects (2 Bs, 1C)

We buy out Staal in off season (no longer a slam dunk decision)
Sign Claesson, Hayes, other RFAs
Sign Panarin
Sign a vet RHD

Kreider Hayes Chytil
Panarin Ziba Kravtsov
Vesey Howton Buch
Strome Andersson Fast
(Lettieri, Whoever)

Skjei Pionk
Cleasson Shatty
Hajek/Rykov ADA/FA vet

Hank (Georgie/Shesty)

Waiting In the wings: we have decent D depth in Miller, Keane, Lindgren, Lundkvist but we need more higher ceiling Fs in the pipeline via the trades above or draft.

I think other than the "obvious" of Zuccha and Hayes............
Shatty will be the biggest PART to shed from this team. One could say that he is more of a necessity to trade, even more than Hayes. There is no ROOM for him, if we ever want to get the most out of Tony D. and can retrieve something good (providing he shows he still "has it" as the season moves along) whereas in comparison Hayes still could be very much an integral part of this rebuild. Not saying we "shouldn't" trade Hayes, but Shatty is more of a necessity.

 

[Larrybiv]

Zucc has been my favorite Ranger the last bunch of years but his time has come. Let him go away and contend somewhere while we recoup some assets

Me too, but can't you envision Zuccha moving on, winning and lifting (barely) a Cup over his head and before retirement coming back for a farewell season?

 

[Larrybiv]

Hayes should 100% be traded...his value must be thru the roof right now. And I'm not altogether convinced this is him going forward.

Not unless he has finally "grown up", with the departure of JT and his other buddy from a long time ago, MDZ. I think there is a seriousness about him, especially since Quinnie has taken over being from Boston et al. He knows this is a $$$ year for him, whether its with the Rangers or not. Awesome that hes doing justice for the Rangers, as the better he plays, the more the Rangers will coup.
I would trade him TODAY, if possible. No chancing a major injury or possible slumping. He is a commodity NOW, take advantage of it as it even lessens our winning ability.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Forgive me if I trust the beat writer over the fanboy journalist based all the way over in Norway. I'll give the benefit of the doubt to the guy getting inside info for decades.

Not even that. I don't trust a Norwegian news source when it's about Zuccarello. They're just not objective

 

[kovazub94]

I`ve nothing against Ryan Spooner and wish him best of luck with Oilers. But concerning the hockey trade - I`ve a notion that Ryan Strome did not get out his full potential while he was with the Oilers and it`s hard to explain exact reasons why, but I believe Strome can grow and continue to develop here in a new system which is why I thought the trade was promising for us Rangers and Ryan Strome himself.

I don't see much upside in Strome. I usually don't rash to conclusions and I'm not going to make the jump here but so far I haven't been impressed. Even being on Howden line is an advance as well as due to injuries to Buch and Zuke. If Zuke is healthy enough to go back in - I'd put Fast back with Howden and move Strome to the 4th line.

This is obviously separate from the fact that obtaining Strome for Spooner made (and still does make) sense.

 

[True Blue]

I would trade him TODAY, if possible. No chancing a major injury or possible slumping. He is a commodity NOW, take advantage of it as it even lessens our winning ability.

Gorton needs the right trading partner.

 

[Webster]

Oh all this trade talk about Zucc. But I think it's a waste of time, and they want to keep him.