Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XIV

[SA16]

Why does it matter it Puljujarvi won't come back this year? We just let Kravtsov go back to Russia this year. If we want Pulujarvi in the organization I don't see why it's a big deal not having him back in North America until next year.

And Pionk/Howden aren't whipping boys. They are/were bad players in their time here so far. That's why people complain about them. It's entirely warranted. Both of them put up atrocious results.

 

[SA16]

Much like Kakko is you mean? Edmonton totally ruined that kid, he can probably be salvaged but they forced him into things he wasnt ready for and then crapped on him when he failed. The measured approach we are using with Kakko would go a long way with J.P. I see a lot of similarities in the two players as prospects, however one is being treated fairly and the other isnt. If we could get him and not lose part of the future of this team I'm all for it. Something with Fast involved works for both teams, Edmonton gets a player who could actually play with Draisaitl and mcdavid or move around their middle 6 if necessary, play on the pk and is cheap.

Puljuarvjis results when used with good players have been good. They were only bad when he was stupidly in a 4th line role where they shouldn't have him anyway.

And with respect to him vs. Lias if we think Lias absolute max potential is a 3rd liner (and if that is unlikely) I would certainly trade someone like him for someone like Puljujarvi who might be 90% not an NHL player but 10% an actual top 6 player compared to someone who is like 100% a 4th line player.

 

[DutchShamrock]

I don't view it as a Howden vs Andersson issue. It's just asset management. Even if Lias is a bust, I just cannot understand the strong reluctance to just get more information and figure out who he is.

The prudent move is to simply put all these young guys in various situations and just find out if there is room to grow. Even with the current situation at center taken away, Quinn should at least give Andersson a few opportunities with more minutes and different linemates. But the fact is you are coming up on 7 games without your #1, you are rolling a reclaimation/placeholder in his place, you have a lack of viable NHL centers, and you are in a rebuild.

There is a lack of objective thinking. Even if there are issues in practice, it is on management to solve the problem just as much as it's on Lias. Stop forcing a square peg through a round hole. Try something beyond "He must do something that we shall not make the fans privy to and earn that time." And even if, and I am finally resigning myself to this outcome, Lias is not an NHLer, just try him in the top 9 so the organization can just say they did everything they could with a freaking top 10 pick.

 

[Paulie Walnutz]

I live to see a HF where people on a very short list acknowledge their tendency to become keenly focused on one or two particular players and realize that is appears borderline compulsive-obsessive.

Totally agree. You’re one of the best posters on here, I always enjoy your posts. Speaking of obsessive, I was reading some so called Rangers fan’s blog and good Lord is it biased and sounds like it was written by an immature teenager. I’ll do everyone on here a favor, don’t read Blue Collar Blueshirts, it’s nothing but Hank bashing, immature pointless sarcasm, and rambling that goes on and on about nothing. There’s 0 constructive material in this guy or girl’s blog. I always enjoy reading alternative Rangers blogs, podcasts, etc. but this one takes the cake for low IQ. I love Under Review from Steve and Greg. Ok rant over.

 

[Avery16]

Why does it matter it Puljujarvi won't come back this year? We just let Kravtsov go back to Russia this year. If we want Pulujarvi in the organization I don't see why it's a big deal not having him back in North America until next year.

And Pionk/Howden aren't whipping boys. They are/were bad players in their time here so far. That's why people complain about them. It's entirely warranted. Both of them put up atrocious results.

If nothing else, it should lower the price. He'll be older before he starts for us, and anything can happen between when we send a player already in the NHL for him and whenever he decides to come over.

 

[Whyme]

He had 23 points in 48 games in the AHL his 4th year after being drafted after (3) years in NCAA. Puljujaarvi, in his 4th year since being drafted has 20 points in 18 games in the SM-Liga. Seems comparable.

A quick comment from someone with Puljujarvi background if that's okay. No player comparing here, but as for points Puljujarvi is ahead of the 23 points in 48 AHL games stage.

His 3rd year brought four points in four AHL games. The sample size is super small, but reports said he was clearly the best player all the time, even from shift to shift. It's very rare people play through the SM-liiga season at over a ppg rate, so his current rate (20 points in 18 games) is not comparable to Kreider's 23 points in 48 AHL games. This with respect towards the AHL, Kreider and whoever happens to read this post

 

[Charlie Conway]

Larry's delusional. "Get rid of Andersson." Yeah, sure.

The kid is 21. He's put up a handful of points playing in fourth line minutes. I don't see how he can praise Howden and then shut down Andersson in the same breath. Better off moving the older assets we have first and see how they do with opportunities.

 

[The New Russian Five]

I don't view it as a Howden vs Andersson issue. It's just asset management. Even if Lias is a bust, I just cannot understand the strong reluctance to just get more information and figure out who he is.

The prudent move is to simply put all these young guys in various situations and just find out if there is room to grow. Even with the current situation at center taken away, Quinn should at least give Andersson a few opportunities with more minutes and different linemates. But the fact is you are coming up on 7 games without your #1, you are rolling a reclaimation/placeholder in his place, you have a lack of viable NHL centers, and you are in a rebuild.

There is a lack of objective thinking. Even if there are issues in practice, it is on management to solve the problem just as much as it's on Lias. Stop forcing a square peg through a round hole. Try something beyond "He must do something that we shall not make the fans privy to and earn that time." And even if, and I am finally resigning myself to this outcome, Lias is not an NHLer, just try him in the top 9 so the organization can just say they did everything they could with a freaking top 10 pick.

Nailed it. The lack of interest and curiosity of finding out how these young players handle different positions, situations, line-mates, etc., especially when it comes to Lias, is head scratching. You can't find all of that out during practice. It needs to be tested in real game situations.

 

[AlaBlueShirt]

Wouldn’t be mad if the middle would look like this in the future
Mika
Chytil
Strome
Howden/Lias

 

[ZiGOODejad]

Part of me thinks Quinn’s just coaching to win games now. Which is fine you want to win every game but how you don’t at least try Lias out with legitimately talented wingers is blasphemous. Lias must of shit in Quinn’s cereal.

 

[Waivers]

I would have expected Lias to have been shuffled around, whether in a C or W position, not affixed in a 4C role.

 

[Machinehead]

I think Howden has officially taken over the whipping boy position vacated by Pionk.

Yeah, saw that coming from a mile away.

Not saying Howden is devoid of ability nor am I saying he's done as a prospect, but how long does he have to be bad before he's just bad?

Legitimately asking.

 

[Edge]

Not saying Howden is devoid of ability nor am I saying he's done as a prospect, but how long does he have to be bad before he's just bad?

Legitimately asking.

To tell you the truth, I am somewhat torn on Howden.

On the one hand, I don't think he's been bad. On the other hand, I don't think he's been good either.

I feel like even the board isn't sure what to make of him. In one thread we're talking about how bad he is. In another thread, he's done nothing to lose his place as a third line center.

 

[DanielBrassard]

To tell you the truth, I am somewhat torn on Howden.

On the one hand, I don't think he's been bad. On the other hand, I don't think he's been good either.

I feel like even the board isn't sure what to make of him. In one thread we're talking about how bad he is. In another thread, he's done nothing to lose his place as a third line center.

I don't know how his performance can be classified in any way other than bad. There's been very little shown by him from the eye test and with the numbers that merit any other conclusion.

 

[RGY]

Part of me thinks Quinn’s just coaching to win games now. Which is fine you want to win every game but how you don’t at least try Lias out with legitimately talented wingers is blasphemous. Lias must of **** in Quinn’s cereal.

And this is the craziest part, Howden is playing awful and hurting the team. He is getting what 14-16 minutes a night as the 3rd line center between Lemieux and our No. 2 overall pick. At least change it up.

Just look at last game. Howden got 17:28 TOI. 3:01 TOI shorthanded. He was 21% on the faceoff dot, which DQ has said he likes about Howden as a strength. Andersson received 7:36 TOI, 1:57 of which was shorthanded. Lias had 1 SOG and 1 Hit, 40% on the dot. Howden had 1 Hit and 1 Block. Those are the generic stats of old and not the advanced analytics, but it goes to show Howden with more than double the ice time is not doing any more than Lias. Without looking at the advanced stats for just that game, Howden was showcasing his same bad habits of panicking with the puck in his own end and turning it over.

Switch it up DQ.

 

[Machinehead]

To tell you the truth, I am somewhat torn on Howden.

On the one hand, I don't think he's been bad. On the other hand, I don't think he's been good either.

I feel like even the board isn't sure what to make of him. In one thread we're talking about how bad he is. In another thread, he's done nothing to lose his place as a third line center.

I think all of that is fair but it's different from him being a whipping boy. We can acknowledge problems with players without them being whipping boys and Howden, while there is still potential, has been problematic as a prospect and has a lot to work on. I think most would agree with that.

Pionk, same thing. He's been good for Winnipeg and we'd be wise as an organization to study the reasons for that, but that's on the organization, not the fans. He was very, very, very bad for the Rangers.

If you want a whipping boy right now, it's Pavel Buchnevich.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

To tell you the truth, I am somewhat torn on Howden.

On the one hand, I don't think he's been bad. On the other hand, I don't think he's been good either.

I feel like even the board isn't sure what to make of him. In one thread we're talking about how bad he is. In another thread, he's done nothing to lose his place as a third line center.

I personally don’t feel like he’s done anything to stand out either way.

 

[Edge]

I think all of that is fair but it's different from him being a whipping boy. We can acknowledge problems with players without them being whipping boys and Howden, while there is still potential, has been problematic as a prospect and has a lot to work on. I think most would agree with that.

Pionk, same thing. He's been good for Winnipeg and we'd be wise as an organization to study the reasons for that, but that's on the organization, not the fans. He was very, very, very bad for the Rangers.

If you want a whipping boy right now, it's Pavel Buchnevich.

See, when there are posters directing 70 percent of their comments at one or two players, every single night, that's not really acknowledging problems. It's something a bit different.

When you can literally, write down on a piece of paper what someone is going to say, how they're going to say, and which people are going to "like" what they say, there's a bit more to the story.

I think what's amazing is the complete surprise it seems to be when they're actually called out for it. There's a legit disconnect from the pattern that everyone else is seeing, or the fact that the only people who agree with them are like the same two or three people.

People get a bug up their ass about something, and it quickly gives them an identity on here. It becomes their "cause" so to speak, their niche.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

Part of me thinks Quinn’s just coaching to win games now. Which is fine you want to win every game but how you don’t at least try Lias out with legitimately talented wingers is blasphemous. Lias must of **** in Quinn’s cereal.

Of course he's trying to win games, but he's also playing three rookie defenseman and has Kakko, Chytil and Howden playing in big situations. Obviously something is going on with Anderson, has to be something we don't see or that he's not doing. I refuse to believe it's a personal gripe or vendetta. Would be monumentally stupid on Quinn's part if that were the case.

And this is the craziest part, Howden is playing awful and hurting the team. He is getting what 14-16 minutes a night as the 3rd line center between Lemieux and our No. 2 overall pick. At least change it up.

Just look at last game. Howden got 17:28 TOI. 3:01 TOI shorthanded. He was 21% on the faceoff dot, which DQ has said he likes about Howden as a strength. Andersson received 7:36 TOI, 1:57 of which was shorthanded. Lias had 1 SOG and 1 Hit, 40% on the dot. Howden had 1 Hit and 1 Block. Those are the generic stats of old and not the advanced analytics, but it goes to show Howden with more than double the ice time is not doing any more than Lias. Without looking at the advanced stats for just that game, Howden was showcasing his same bad habits of panicking with the puck in his own end and turning it over.

Switch it up DQ.

I don't get why people are making this a Howden vs Anderson thing, it's not fair to either of them. What is Howden supposed to do, refuse ice time? Honestly, I don't get what he sees in one and not the other, but I don't think this is an either or thing. If Anderson were doing whatever the hell the coaches were asking him to do, they'd find him ice time.

 

[Ola]

Why does it matter it Puljujarvi won't come back this year? We just let Kravtsov go back to Russia this year. If we want Pulujarvi in the organization I don't see why it's a big deal not having him back in North America until next year.

And Pionk/Howden aren't whipping boys. They are/were bad players in their time here so far. That's why people complain about them. It's entirely warranted. Both of them put up atrocious results.

From my POV, best case scenario would be that he stays. Plays a big role, participates in the WCH and so forth. These kids need to play.

Look at Panarin. Can you learn that puck poise if you play in the NHL from when you are 18, unless you are generational?

 

[Edge]

I personally don’t feel like he’s done anything to stand out either way.

That's more or less how I feel. He's kind of there. He pops in and out. I don't really feel like he does anything consistently worse than a lot of guys. I don't feel like he does anything consistently better than a lot of guys.

Frankly, that's my concern about this forward group overall.

People talk about Ruff and the defense. But there are a lot of times I find myself way more concerned about the forwards. There are a lot of guys where I'm wondering if they're just taking laps out there.

They're not scoring, but they're not necessarily preventing the other team from scoring. It's not like we're winning 3-2 games with the top two lines scoring and the bottom lines shutting things down.

 

[Machinehead]

See, when there are player for whom 70 percent of their comments are directed at one or two players, every single night, that's not really acknowledging problems. It's something a bit different.

When you can literally, write down on a piece of paper what someone is going to say, how they're going to say, and which people are going to "like" what they say, there's a bit more to the story.

I think what's actually amazing is the complete surprise it seems to be when they're actually called out for it. Like there's a legit disconnect from the pattern that everyone else is seeing, or the fact that the only people who agree with them are like the same two or three people.

People get a bug up their ass about something, and it quickly gives them an identity on here. It becomes their "cause" so to speak, their niche.

I posit that when you can write down on a piece of paper what someone is going to say, maybe it's because the team is getting it wrong and keeps getting it wrong.

I think it's a major issue that deserves the coverage it's getting on here. We're not exactly flush with center prospects. We could really use one of Andersson or Howden being a player. One of them is still being rewarded for doing the wrong things. The other, on the complete opposite side of the coin, can't seem to get a break with this coach. Both are wrong and both are alarming.

Again, there comes a point where the conversations become predictable because the stupid shit the team does is predictable.

 

[Ola]

IMO, JP represents the dangers of lusting for skills. When you fall in love with what they can do in practice, or in scenarios that emphasis skill over in-game application.

Now having said all that, we're reaching the point where there's little or no point to the Rangers keeping Andersson. If they're not going to try him in different scenarios, to even see if that has any impact, then it's time to move on.

In a lineup where various players have been moved around, changed positions, etc. to see if they can jump start their game or find chemistry, Andersson is not some weird enigma with a unique situation. But if the fourth line is his home, and he has to sink or swim entirely on his own, then there's a high probability that we already know how this is going to end.

Kreider needed Torts to be fired to get a shot. He had 23 pts in 48 games in the AHL as a 21-22 y/o. He started the year after in the AHL too.

I think the point you are talking about still is ways off. Lias is better this year than last.

With that said — I think he should get some AHL time. But that is another issue.

 

[Edge]

I posit that when you can write down on a piece of paper what someone is going to say, maybe it's because the team is getting it wrong and keeps getting it wrong.

I think it's a major issue that deserves the coverage it's getting on here. We're not exactly flush with center prospects. We could really use one of Andersson or Howden being a player. One of them is still being rewarded for doing the wrong things. The other, on the complete opposite side of the coin, can't seem to get a break with this coach. Both are wrong and both are alarming.

Again, there comes a point where the conversations become predictable because the stupid **** the team does is predictable.

I don't think it's a widespread conversation. It's literally being driven by the same people who always do that with one or two guys. If we moved Howden tomorrow, and he never played another game for the Rangers, everyone on here can expect that someone else will be put into that position and it will be the same handful of people doing it.

I can almost guarantee that I could put down several names on a piece of paper today, place the paper in a sealed envelope, and if Howden was moved in the offseason, those people would pick another player, put him in that same position, and make almost identical comments this time next.

It would be a completely different player. Could be a completely different position. Play a different style of game. You name it. The comments would look almost identical.

Why? Because that's what they do. That's what everyone knows they do. That's what they'd do if we had the best team in hockey.

That's what they've done, that's what they bring to the table, and that's probably what they will always bring to the table. Eventually, most of them fade away when they realize most people aren't listening. And then someone new comes and does the exact. same. thing.

 

[Raspewtin]

it's interesting that Howden has been annointed a whipping boy meanwhile his thread has about 3 pages of activity since the season started and sans one page about him being out for a faceoff, the entire PGT has been a fight about Hank

you're free to make shit up, it's a free country I guess.