Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XIV

[Edge]

Kreider needed Torts to be fired to get a shot. He had 23 pts in 48 games in the AHL as a 21-22 y/o. He started the year after in the AHL too.

I think the point you are talking about still is ways off. Lias is better this year than last.

With that said — I think he should get some AHL time. But that is another issue.

Ironically enough, I tend to believe that Kreider and Miller wouldn't have become what they became for the Rangers if Torts remained.

For better or worse, different coaches connect with different players.

 

[Machinehead]

I don't think it's a widespread conversation. It's literally being driven by the same people who always do that with one or two guys. If we moved Howden tomorrow, and he never played another game for the Rangers, everyone on here can expect that someone else will be put into that position and it will be the same handful of people doing it.

I can almost guarantee that I could put down several names on a piece of paper today, place the paper in a sealed envelope, and if Howden was moved in the offseason, those people would pick another player, put him in that same position, and make almost identical comments this time next.

It would be a completely different player. Could be a completely different position. Play a different style of game. You name it. The comments would look almost identical.

Why? Because that's what they do. That's what everyone knows they do. That's what they'd do if we had the best team in hockey.

That's what they've done, that's what they bring to the table, and that's probably what they will always bring to the table. Eventually, most of them fade away when they realize most people aren't listening. And then someone new comes and does the exact. same. thing.

Ok, but maybe, just maybe, if we had one roster without the obligatory rancid players, or the obligatory player getting crucified for no reason, we wouldn't hear those comments.

 

[Edge]

Ok, but maybe, just maybe, if we had one roster without the obligatory rancid players, or the obligatory player getting crucified for no reason, we wouldn't hear those comments.

I don't think that exists. And even if it did exist, I think there would always be someone who would fit that focus role, because there are people who want someone in that role. It's a big part of their fan experience.

I think there are certain elements that are just inherent to people's personalities, good and bad, right or wrong, beneficial or detrimental, and the many stages in between.

For those who tend to focus on the negative, real or perceived, it will always be an obsession. Kind of like that person you work with who is always complaining.

If it's their stupid boss, you can replace the boss and then it's about salary. You can give them more salary and then it's about the hours they work. You can change the hours they work, and then its about the clients they work with.

I think we can replace or fix the concern, but another will pop up immediately.

I don't think that personality trait changes just because the subject is hockey. I think some people really are wired that way. It's fair to say that if they exist in our day-to-day lives, there's no way they don't exist on here.

 

[DutchShamrock]

Nailed it. The lack of interest and curiosity of finding out how these young players handle different positions, situations, line-mates, etc., especially when it comes to Lias, is head scratching. You can't find all of that out during practice. It needs to be tested in real game situations.

I'm not even being that rigid or bashing the coach's methods. He has brought guys along, he has had success, he gets more than the sum of these parts.

But that shouldn't cement a coach's approach. Past success shouldn't dictate every scenario. It's on Quinn to find an alternate solution. That doesn't absolve Lias or take the onus off him. Maybe Lias will get this critical lesson if he gets thrown in the deep end. Maybe it'll boost his confidence. But I can say with confidence that he isn't getting it with these wingers, 5 minutes a night, and whatever tests he gets in practices.

Should every guy just figure it out the way most others do? Sure, in a perfect world. But Quinn isn't using those same standards with others. And what victory does anyone get from proving Lias can't navigate your gauntlet? Is that something to hang your hat on? A top 10 pick wasn't able to hack it in your world.

Simply put, just try something different. Make the narrative that he failed despite every opportunity.

 

[RGY]

I don't get why people are making this a Howden vs Anderson thing, it's not fair to either of them. What is Howden supposed to do, refuse ice time? Honestly, I don't get what he sees in one and not the other, but I don't think this is an either or thing. If Anderson were doing whatever the hell the coaches were asking him to do, they'd find him ice time.

Its very simple.

Howden has not been good at all. He has been force fed 15-16 minutes per night.

Lias on the other hand is getting 7-8 minutes per night with garbage wingers.

Howden being in the 3C spot in the lineup and not playing well is logical option and candidate for Lias to take the place of. Not Chytil’s. Not Strome’s. Mika will be back at 1C when he is healthy in a week.

It isnt about Lias vs Howden. Its simple logic.

 

[TheDirtyH]

Everybody always talking about new whipping boys, meanwhile, Henrik Lundqvist is still on the team.

 

[ZiGOODejad]

Of course he's trying to win games, but he's also playing three rookie defenseman and has Kakko, Chytil and Howden playing in big situations. Obviously something is going on with Anderson, has to be something we don't see or that he's not doing. I refuse to believe it's a personal gripe or vendetta. Would be monumentally stupid on Quinn's part if that were the case.



I don't get why people are making this a Howden vs Anderson thing, it's not fair to either of them. What is Howden supposed to do, refuse ice time? Honestly, I don't get what he sees in one and not the other, but I don't think this is an either or thing. If Anderson were doing whatever the hell the coaches were asking him to do, they'd find him ice time.

I don’t see it as Brett vs Lias but I think we all believe some of those minutes should go to Lias. I think most of us would like to see more of a balance minute wise between some of our centers. It’s just imo to see a fair kick at the can for these kids.

 

[Pawnee Rangers]

Its very simple.

Howden has not been good at all. He has been force fed 15-16 minutes per night.

Lias on the other hand is getting 7-8 minutes per night with garbage wingers.

Howden being in the 3C spot in the lineup and not playing well is logical option and candidate for Lias to take the place of. Not Chytil’s. Not Strome’s. Mika will be back at 1C when he is healthy in a week.

It isnt about Lias vs Howden. Its simple logic.

It's not simple, that's the point. You don't think the coaches have discussed moving Anderson up? He's their first pick of the rebuild. They have a ton invested in him. What do they have to gain from purposely screwing him up? Howden too for that matter. Maybe there's another level they know he's capable of getting to but hasn't for some reason. It's odd to me as well. But seeing how they're throwing 6 other kids out to the wolves every night, it leads me to believe there's other things at play here. And I don't buy the excuse he's got shit wingers. There's ways to show the coaches you're doing whats asked of you that have nothing to do with McKegg, Haley or Smith. These guys are all NHL players.

I don’t see it as Brett vs Lias but I think we all believe some of those minutes should go to Lias. I think most of us would like to see more of a balance minute wise between some of our centers. It’s just imo to see a fair kick at the can for these kids.

I'm sure at some point he'll get his shot or he'll get traded and get his shot someplace else. I'm not ready to give up on him. Just trying to have some patience.

 

[NYRFANMANI]

Is Quinn secretly pissed at the silver medal toss?

 

[Trxjw]

Not saying Howden is devoid of ability nor am I saying he's done as a prospect, but how long does he have to be bad before he's just bad?

Legitimately asking.

You're looking for a definitive answer to an ambiguous question. There's no set number of games, post draft years, or number of teams a player has been on that you can use to decide that a player has no NHL future or is a "just bad" as you put it. Some players develop early, some late, some not at all. Some players carve out a NHL career as stars, some as middling players, and some as journeymen.

I'm not saying Howden is doing something stellar that nobody else can see, or even that he should be in the NHL right now. I'm just drawing the comparison to Pionk, another player who was routinely bashed as a useless player who was "one of the worst defensemen in the league" and could do no right in the eyes of many people. People have every right to gripe, but at some point it just becomes predictable and boring.

 

[Machinehead]

You're looking for a definitive answer to an ambiguous question. There's no set number of games, post draft years, or number of teams a player has been on that you can use to decide that a player has no NHL future or is a "just bad" as you put it. Some players develop early, some late, some not at all. Some players carve out a NHL career as stars, some as middling players, and some as journeymen.

I'm not saying Howden is doing something stellar that nobody else can see, or even that he should be in the NHL right now. I'm just drawing the comparison to Pionk, another player who was routinely bashed as a useless player who was "one of the worst defensemen in the league" and could do no right in the eyes of many people. People have every right to gripe, but at some point it just becomes predictable and boring.

And again, I think we need to look at the organization when it comes to these repeated tropes, not the fans.

 

[Trxjw]

And again, I think we need to look at the organization when it comes to these repeated tropes, not the fans.

I don't think it's an organizational thing. Sometimes players just don't reach their potential within an organization. Pionk and Miller are having great starts to the year in other places, sure, but we're the beneficiary of Ottawa thinking Brassard was a better option than Zibanejad and Arizona and Tampa Bay both washing their hands of Tony DeAngelo.

Sometimes it's really just as simple as a bad fit or bad timing.

 

[NernieBichols]

See, when there are posters directing 70 percent of their comments at one or two players, every single night, that's not really acknowledging problems. It's something a bit different.

When you can literally, write down on a piece of paper what someone is going to say, how they're going to say, and which people are going to "like" what they say, there's a bit more to the story.

I think what's amazing is the complete surprise it seems to be when they're actually called out for it. There's a legit disconnect from the pattern that everyone else is seeing, or the fact that the only people who agree with them are like the same two or three people.

People get a bug up their ass about something, and it quickly gives them an identity on here. It becomes their "cause" so to speak, their niche.

My cause is to squash bugs

 

[NYR94]

I don't think it's a widespread conversation. It's literally being driven by the same people who always do that with one or two guys. If we moved Howden tomorrow, and he never played another game for the Rangers, everyone on here can expect that someone else will be put into that position and it will be the same handful of people doing it.

I can almost guarantee that I could put down several names on a piece of paper today, place the paper in a sealed envelope, and if Howden was moved in the offseason, those people would pick another player, put him in that same position, and make almost identical comments this time next.

It would be a completely different player. Could be a completely different position. Play a different style of game. You name it. The comments would look almost identical.

Why? Because that's what they do. That's what everyone knows they do. That's what they'd do if we had the best team in hockey.

That's what they've done, that's what they bring to the table, and that's probably what they will always bring to the table. Eventually, most of them fade away when they realize most people aren't listening. And then someone new comes and does the exact. same. thing.

The board wasn't always like this. I feel like when I first started we didn't have posters like that, or at least they didn't post as often and as obnoxiously. Being that one-note is boring. It doesn't matter if some hot take is posted once or a thousand times, if it's wrong it's wrong and the poster is not going to brute force people into agreeing with them.

If you follow the GDT, you know exactly what people are going to post before they even post it depending on which one of their favorite/least favorite players did what. I know exactly who's going to post and what they're going to say after Lundqvist lets in a goal. Same goes for Howden and Staal. Same posters posting the same posts thousands of times a season. I don't see how that's not boring, posting the same opinion about the same small handful of players over and over again. It's still a team sport, and the Rangers, on most nights, win or lose because of what they did as a team and not just because of something one of their whipping boys did.

 

[bobbop]

Just remember this about player development...Ryan Strome is having his breakthrough year in his D+9 season. Development ain’t linear.

 

[aufheben]

It's late, almost at 1k, and this is getting way OT.

Next thread: Speculation: - Roster Building Thread: Part XV