Proposal: Roster Building Thread Part X: I Get No Points Out of You

[darko]

Maybe Arizona will be so bad they will trade Stepan back and pay half his contract.

That'd give us three 1Cs.

 

[Ola]

Shaw is also a garbage human being so no thanks

I know, at least crazy. That type can also be valuable, but you want to buy them on the rise. A 22 y/o Shaw would have been perfect for us. OTOH, he is only 26 y/o. Signed until he is 30 y/o.

He played so many games from 2010 to 2015, plays a very physical game. Won two Cups and one Memorial Cup. If you look at the Shaw we saw in the POs last season -- that was worthless -- it was a player that just wasn't in the same shape that the one that played so well for Chicago. Will he go downhill from now or shape up? Who knows.

Lets say just for example that MTL would retain 1.3m per on Shaw and move him for Bereglazov. 4 years remaining. You would want to be sure that he would deliver, don't think we have any connections to anyone knowing Shaw. IF -- and its a bit if -- he would deliver, then it could be a good move. Depth player, experienced winner. RHS. Can take FOs. Gritty.

 

[Roo Returns]

I remember when the 2016 draft was rolling around, everyone was talking about a McDonagh for 4OA+ from Edmonton

But that was just us. I'd love to know what pieces were being discussed between the Rangers and Oilers.

That was around the time Subban and Weber got swapped, maybe Edmonton wanted to make a big splash, and then saw Puljujärvi was available and kept the pick.

They basically robbed us for Talbot the year before

GMs like John Ferguson,Phil Esposito, post-94 Neil Smith, and early in his tenure Glen Sather (before he had a staff) kind of ruined it for the Rangers in terms of their own player value. I've always felt like players on the Rangers are generally valued less because of the"it's New York, they need to win, they once traded youth for vets often 30 years ago" reputation. Even with drafting where the Rangers have done a pretty good to very good job especially from the 04-14 period there's this main boards perception "they can't draft" which is statistically not true.

So I feel Talbot was under valued because of the Rangers stereotype and had to be moved. They did with additional trades get a total of four players back fro him; Huska, Zbo, Morrison, and Kovacs. Ideally you'd like two to become NHLers which should have happened if Kovacs had his head on straight.

But the trade might be salvageable at this point. If Huska can form part II of a tandem with Shestyorkin from like 2020-2025 and having two goalies on ELCs and one on a bridge deal or one on a lesser length contract will be huge for the cap especially all the "Lundqvist takes up too much cap room" folks nowadays.

One trade that does't look good at all though is the Hagelin for Gropp move. I just don't think he has the grit, speed, feel to become a successful NHLer.

 

[pld459666]

Shaw is also a garbage human being so no thanks

Based on what exactly?

 

[BBKers]

GMs like John Ferguson,Phil Esposito, post-94 Neil Smith, and early in his tenure Glen Sather (before he had a staff) kind of ruined it for the Rangers in terms of their own player value. I've always felt like players on the Rangers are generally valued less because of the"it's New York, they need to win, they once traded youth for vets often 30 years ago" reputation. Even with drafting where the Rangers have done a pretty good to very good job especially from the 04-14 period there's this main boards perception "they can't draft" which is statistically not true.

So I feel Talbot was under valued because of the Rangers stereotype and had to be moved. They did with additional trades get a total of four players back fro him; Huska, Zbo, Morrison, and Kovacs. Ideally you'd like two to become NHLers which should have happened if Kovacs had his head on straight.

But the trade might be salvageable at this point. If Huska can form part II of a tandem with Shestyorkin from like 2020-2025 and having two goalies on ELCs and one on a bridge deal or one on a lesser length contract will be huge for the cap especially all the "Lundqvist takes up too much cap room" folks nowadays.

One trade that does't look good at all though is the Hagelin for Gropp move. I just don't think he has the grit, speed, feel to become a successful NHLer.

Both trade returns were underwhelming although the circumstances were not favorable

 

[BBKers]

Rick Nash has $8 M in salary. He carries a cap hit of $7.8 M. That is 10,4% of the total cap space of the team. He is an assistant captain. He should be a to go guy leading by example. He is paid to put up some points. Not to dangle, almost score or penalty kill. He has played 182 minutes of hockey and amassed 1 measly point in 11 games. Almost 29 minutes of power play time. 0 points on the PP. Rookie Bo Nieves has played 12:01 regular minuters and managed 3 points ( I know I am being selective here). Henrik Lundquist has been far from stellar as well. Very inconsistent. Poor numbers. He carries a $8,5 M caphit with a $9 M salary. This is 11,3% of the total salary space. Together these two players represent 21,7% of the available space on the team and EVEN more of the space used. This is the Main reason for our abyssmal start. This team should not be 3-6-2 after 11 games, mostly at MSG. No doubt. Alotting this much of the total available resources to garner Such a medger return - in Any company - and you are in big trouble. Unless everybody else seriously over performs- which has not been the case. A similar argument - albeit not as bad statistically - can be made about Kevin Shattenkirks first 11 games and the defensive flaws exhibited. Our three most expensive contracts with over 30% of the cap. Apologists need not reply here. Because there is No reasonable defense to this. Hopefully it changes. At least Nashes contract expires this offseason. Hanks contract status and remaining length is very worrisome - to say the least. And also at least: Hayes, Miller, Vesey and Skjei will all be reasonable resignings as it looks now. Boo, not so much.

 

[RangerBoy]

Brooks had reported a few days after the 2016 draft about the Rangers and Oilers discussing a deal for #4. Elliotte Friedman reported the Rangers and Arizona had discussed a Stepan deal for #7 in 2016 but something needed to happen. Maybe Arizona would trade the pick if a certain player was not there. They took Keller at #7. Steve Greeley had recruited Keller to BU. The Rangers are quite familiar with Keller. Who did the Rangers offer to Edmonton? Miller? Peter Chiarelli was the GM of the Young Guns World Cup team. He knows Miller very well. Gorton made the Brassard trade at that draft and they waited until the bonus check was paid to sign off on the trade. We discussed the Brooks report about the Rangers and Edmonton here at that time. Friedman reported his information when the Stepan trade was made in June. The Rangers spoke with both teams. The Rangers should do the same thing this season. Trade Nash for a #1 and Zuccarello for a top prospect or young NHL roster at the deadline plus a pick. Maybe look at adding an additional 1st in the lottery. Young skilled impact players with upside. Gorton did inquire about Drouin when he wanted out of Tampa and most of people here wanted no part of him. The guy is a great player. He is trying to add a certain type of player to the organization. Zibanejad. Andersson. Chytil.

 

[BBKers]

The Rangers really wanted Patrick and wanted to move up to the #3 pick. But he was gone then, as expected. We were not getting #1 or #2 from Jersey or Philly. Such is life

 

[Gardner McKay]

Based on what exactly?

He made a really dumbass comment in the heat of the moment. Something that of course, NO ONE here has EVER done, right? The number of apologies and work he has done to show those aren't his true feelings is completely disregarded of course and the guy is forever branded as a garbage human being.

Shit like this is part of the reason I don't come around as much any more. The hypocrisy level is through the f***ing roof.

All that aside, Shaw and the piss and vinegar he would bring would be a good addition. I'm sure I am a garbage human being as well for even entertaining the idea of having that "garbage human being" on our team.

 

[RangerBoy]

I am happy Stepan got a great ovation from the crowd. The Rangers made the correct decision to trade him. The trade should help the Rangers starting next season for quite a while.

 

[Ori]

Fun facts @BBK Nash get top line minutes TOI each game. Pls. send AV circus clown back to Canada.
Nieves should start the season - he was good in training camp when I watched him and I commented about it in pre season - AV decisions are just confusing me the recent years.

If you can`t produce with top TOI - guy is a nerve wreck. Nash should rest some games if AV can`t give him 4th line minutes like Kreider last game. Kreider with 13:45 TOI last game, Vesey 12:51 Nash with 16:46 TOI.

Another great piece for us is playing hockey in Sweden in Lias, but fine with me to develop him one year there, but he could certainly contribute in NHL as well.

 

[Ori]

I am happy Stepan got a great ovation from the crowd. The Rangers made the correct decision to trade him. The trade should help the Rangers starting next season for quite a while.

I agree, too many we should not trade Stepan tweets on the internet. We`ve a great future in both Chyttil & Lias, and DeAngelo with high talent skills, a bit raw and young, but I`m positive.
And if it cost us playoffs this year - I could care less with the amount of talent in the 2018 draft, and AV gone due too high expectations by G. Sather, but hopefully that was his plan to send AV on a plane to Canada end of this season if we don`t reach playoffs which is the franchise goal.

 

[Edge]

Brooks had reported a few days after the 2016 draft about the Rangers and Oilers discussing a deal for #4. Elliotte Friedman reported the Rangers and Arizona had discussed a Stepan deal for #7 in 2016 but something needed to happen. Maybe Arizona would trade the pick if a certain player was not there. They took Keller at #7. Steve Greeley had recruited Keller to BU. The Rangers are quite familiar with Keller. Who did the Rangers offer to Edmonton? Miller? Peter Chiarelli was the GM of the Young Guns World Cup team. He knows Miller very well. Gorton made the Brassard trade at that draft and they waited until the bonus check was paid to sign off on the trade. We discussed the Brooks report about the Rangers and Edmonton here at that time. Friedman reported his information when the Stepan trade was made in June. The Rangers spoke with both teams. The Rangers should do the same thing this season. Trade Nash for a #1 and Zuccarello for a top prospect or young NHL roster at the deadline plus a pick. Maybe look at adding an additional 1st in the lottery. Young skilled impact players with upside. Gorton did inquire about Drouin when he wanted out of Tampa and most of people here wanted no part of him. The guy is a great player. He is trying to add a certain type of player to the organization. Zibanejad. Andersson. Chytil.

One of the frequent rumors was that the Rangers wanted Tkachuk in 2016. They couldn't find a deal with the Oilers, who really liked Puljujarvi. Supposedly, they were in talks with Arizona, but it was in the interest of getting Tkachuk, who ended up going one pick earlier.

This year, the four names I heard the Rangers most connected with were Patrick, Petersson, Glass and Andersson. The Rangers were confident they could get least one of them at the 7 spot.

As for Nash, I'm just not sure he gets you a number 1 at this point. He'll have to turn it up and show he's at least still in the 20-25 goal, 40-45 point range (when healthy). Right now, he looks like she's slipped from even that level. But we'll see where he and the Rangers are at in the new year.

 

[bernmeister]

Maybe Arizona will be so bad they will trade Stepan back and pay half his contract.

Please STOP
Let it GO.
He was solid but very limited and ordinary.
He was always worth more to us in trade return than production.
He is slow, and will only get slower moving forward.
DO NOT WANT

I'm trying to be nice to the guys who have an affection for him, but this foolish notation of returning Stepan is worse than not dealing him, other than his NMC-NTC has been defeated.
Move on.

 

[SA16]

Terrible takes on Nash, as usual. He's been one of the best forwards this year. Just happens to be shooting 2%. Now I'm sure where is where we get into "if you only take muffin shots from bad angles the low shooting percentage makes sense" even though apparently doing this for years he shot 12% last year, 8% the year before that, 14% before that, and in fact the 8.2% was the lowest of his career. Would be a whole different story if he was just shooting 10% like he normally does and had his 5 goals but I guess he's "paid to score goals" so things like that don't matter.

 

[BBKers]

Terrible takes on Nash, as usual. He's been one of the best forwards this year. Just happens to be shooting 2%. Now I'm sure where is where we get into "if you only take muffin shots from bad angles the low shooting percentage makes sense" even though apparently doing this for years he shot 12% last year, 8% the year before that, 14% before that, and in fact the 8.2% was the lowest of his career. Would be a whole different story if he was just shooting 10% like he normally does and had his 5 goals but I guess he's "paid to score goals" so things like that don't matter.

Wonderful enlightening analysis. It really changed My views. Show me the secret door to the "What IF" Universe. I really need to get there...

 

[bernmeister]

GMs like John Ferguson,Phil Esposito, post-94 Neil Smith, and early in his tenure Glen Sather (before he had a staff) kind of ruined it for the Rangers in terms of their own player value. I've always felt like players on the Rangers are generally valued less because of the"it's New York, they need to win, they once traded youth for vets often 30 years ago" reputation. Even with drafting where the Rangers have done a pretty good to very good job especially from the 04-14 period there's this main boards perception "they can't draft" which is statistically not true.[/B]

So I feel Talbot was under valued because of the Rangers stereotype and had to be moved. They did with additional trades get a total of four players back fro him; Huska, Zbo, Morrison, and Kovacs. Ideally you'd like two to become NHLers which should have happened if Kovacs had his head on straight.

But the trade might be salvageable at this point. If Huska can form part II of a tandem with Shestyorkin from like 2020-2025 and having two goalies on ELCs and one on a bridge deal or one on a lesser length contract will be huge for the cap especially all the "Lundqvist takes up too much cap room" folks nowadays.

One trade that does't look good at all though is the Hagelin for Gropp move. I just don't think he has the grit, speed, feel to become a successful NHLer.

Agree on da bold.
Talbot I won't re-hash, except to say we should have resigned him ourselves to a starting deal, then dealt him pref to where he was comfortable and the return would have been higher, not only as to a better return, but also as to him being an asset under contract, a trade partner not just obtaining his rights. We could have done that later on delay if not an immediately available option.

Gropp has gotta get it going, but I am not writing him off yet.
We deal vets like Nash, don't waste space on guys like Cracknell and Carey and this guy has a shot at 4LW. It is then up to him to cut the mustard.

Skapski at one pt outplayed others in camp, got buried, then hurt. I don't know this, but I feel he got disillusioned and that was obviously counterproductive as it cost us an asset that could otherwise have been used or repurposed. Gropp has not outplayed anyone so far, but my point is if he shows up, I don't want him wasted b'c of roster mismanagement, which is mostly the fault of AV.

 

[SA16]

Thanks. Your view was wrong. Glad we got it straightened out.

 

[LeetchisGod]

Terrible takes on Nash, as usual. He's been one of the best forwards this year. Just happens to be shooting 2%. Now I'm sure where is where we get into "if you only take muffin shots from bad angles the low shooting percentage makes sense" even though apparently doing this for years he shot 12% last year, 8% the year before that, 14% before that, and in fact the 8.2% was the lowest of his career. Would be a whole different story if he was just shooting 10% like he normally does and had his 5 goals but I guess he's "paid to score goals" so things like that don't matter.

Nash is a rapidly declining, overpaid player. Hopefully this is his last year in a Ranger uniform so we won't have to discuss him anymore.

 

[Fitzy]

If Vesey doesnt pan out and Nash/Grabner leave next offseason that leaves some significant holes at wing.

I do see Chytil as a winger in this league with Andersson at center.

But its unlikely, unless there is a trade, that NYR will be able to fill many holes via free agency given the amount they will have to pay on upcoming contracts for Miller, Hayes, and Skjei.

NYR have practically zero wing prospects (Besides Chytil) with an NHL probability above around 10%.

 

[Edge]

Terrible takes on Nash, as usual. He's been one of the best forwards this year. Just happens to be shooting 2%. Now I'm sure where is where we get into "if you only take muffin shots from bad angles the low shooting percentage makes sense" even though apparently doing this for years he shot 12% last year, 8% the year before that, 14% before that, and in fact the 8.2% was the lowest of his career. Would be a whole different story if he was just shooting 10% like he normally does and had his 5 goals but I guess he's "paid to score goals" so things like that don't matter.

Here's the thing, at the end of the day, when people want to talk about trading Nash for an amazing return, there has to be more to offer an opposing team that "He's been one of the best forwards this year. Just happens to be shooting 2 percent." This is especially true if people think we're getting a better than average prospect or a first round pick.

And yeah, to some extent, if he was shooting 10 percent (5 times better) and had five goals, and a pace for 20-25 goals, it would be a different story. I mean, how would it not? If Lundqvist gave up 1 less goal per game and stopped 5 more shots per night it would change that conversation too. Any result for a player is going to change the conversation, because, at some point, production/results are going to be a part of the standard of how a player is judged, regardless of how bad or good they are playing.

 

[Ori]

If Vesey doesnt pan out and Nash/Grabner leave next offseason that leaves some significant holes at wing.

I do see Chytil as a winger in this league with Andersson at center.

But its unlikely, unless there is a trade, that NYR will be able to fill many holes via free agency given the amount they will have to pay on upcoming contracts for Miller, Hayes, and Skjei.

NYR have practically zero wing prospects with an NHL probability above around 10%.

Yes, we need to draft wingers next summer.
Spot on analysis.

I don`t think we can draft R. Dahlin even if we end up with the # 1st overall pick. Unless they have plans to move Ryan Mc. contract for a winger next season.

 

[TheTakedown]

Terrible takes on Nash, as usual. He's been one of the best forwards this year. Just happens to be shooting 2%. Now I'm sure where is where we get into "if you only take muffin shots from bad angles the low shooting percentage makes sense" even though apparently doing this for years he shot 12% last year, 8% the year before that, 14% before that, and in fact the 8.2% was the lowest of his career. Would be a whole different story if he was just shooting 10% like he normally does and had his 5 goals but I guess he's "paid to score goals" so things like that don't matter.

let me know when he can consistently score.

Oh wait, that was 3+ years ago.

I do want to get a 1st rounder out of him, but I fear if he keeps playing like this, we'll have to retain hal;f his salary and we still might only get a 2nd and a prospect.

Again, I'm more than OK with that if there's a cheaper option that can fill in for Nash, though the farm doesn't have much right now

 

[Gardner McKay]

Please STOP
Let it GO.
He was solid but very limited and ordinary.
He was always worth more to us in trade return than production.
He is slow, and will only get slower moving forward.
DO NOT WANT

I'm trying to be nice to the guys who have an affection for him, but this foolish notation of returning Stepan is worse than not dealing him, other than his NMC-NTC has been defeated.
Move on.

I am pretty sure the big bang just happened all over again from the sheer irony of the section in bold.

Here's the thing, at the end of the day, when people want to talk about trading Nash for an amazing return, there has to be more to offer an opposing team that "He's been one of the best forwards this year. Just happens to be shooting 2 percent." This is especially true if people think we're getting a better than average prospect or a first round pick.

And yeah, to some extent, if he was shooting 10 percent (5 times better) and had five goals, and a pace for 20-25 goals, it would be a different story. I mean, how would it not? If Lundqvist gave up 1 less goal per game and stopped 5 more shots per night it would change that conversation too. Any result for a player is going to change the conversation, because, at some point, production/results are going to be a part of the standard of how a player is judged, regardless of how bad or good they are playing.

Well, when you live in a what if universe, everything happens in that what if universe. The problem is, most other teams don't live in that space.

I think we could fetch a decent return for him with the way he is playing. He still adds value and to a team on a cup run would be a very important player. I don't think we get a 1st + for him with his current level of play.

 

[NikC]

Brooks said it best recently, and it's nothing new. .. rangers don't have enough "leading men"... too many support players...

In the off season I pointed to the teams that won the SC this last decade. .. even one hit wonders like CAR, TBL,... loaded with top end scorers. ..

Rangers will go nowhere unless they can bring in some top flight talent