Rockets owner hasn’t given up on dream of Houston NHL team (mod: Houston thread)

voyageur

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Interesting that he was partnered with McNair. McNair was the one competing with Les Alexander to bring the NHL to Houston. Their conflict led to the NHL passing over the city in the late 90's expansion.

I thought it had to do with the Summit. The NHL was very adamant about new arenas in the 90s as being the key to revenue growth, and the Toyota Centre didn't get built until 2003, when all expansion and relocation had already taken place.
 

voyageur

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Could you provide a link for the bolded statement? There was a statement referenced earlier in the thread that Meruelo will be free to explore relocation options at the end of December.

It's the same one I posted before, which is by no means conclusive, but seems to have some insider information.
Alex Meruelo May Get The Arizona Coyotes For Roughly $300 Million

I am quite sure that the NHL would have an opt out, as the lease as it stands is year to year with Glendale, renewed every December. So it is possible that they could move earlier. Maybe try to kick up some steam by adding both Seattle and Houston in the same year, with the TV contract expiring. Just doesn't sound like Fertitta has the revenue to pull it off, but I have no idea whatsoever what the real value of relocating the Coyotes would be. Franchise fee + relocation fee would be at least double what True North paid on the Thrashers I would think. $370 million roughly would be my guess, perhaps a shade more.
 
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TheLegend

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It has been mentioned that Meruelo is withholding rent as part of a negotiation. Who is he negotiating with? AGM or Glendale? What terms could even be altered by AGM? The main finances of GRA is/was hammered out between AGM and Glendale? I don’t think that agreement is too lucrative for either party. I am not sure what Meruelo is trying to accomplish by withholding rent? If he wants a break on this past season, would it not be better to pay the full amount when it was due and then ask for some consideration due to the COVID? It seems to me that Meruelo is just setting up an adversarial relationship by going this route.

Going to stop here because we are way off topic but will make one last answer.

IIRC they negotiate with AGM. Glendale would still have to approve any contract but AGM acts as their negotiator.
 
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Hammahtime

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At this point does is seem that relocation is the “easiest” route to land a team in Houston?

I personally would love to see a team land in Houston, would also love if a fan base would NOT have to lose their team to make this happen.
 
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Pandemonia

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It's the same one I posted before, which is by no means conclusive, but seems to have some insider information.
Alex Meruelo May Get The Arizona Coyotes For Roughly $300 Million

I am quite sure that the NHL would have an opt out, as the lease as it stands is year to year with Glendale, renewed every December. So it is possible that they could move earlier. Maybe try to kick up some steam by adding both Seattle and Houston in the same year, with the TV contract expiring. Just doesn't sound like Fertitta has the revenue to pull it off, but I have no idea whatsoever what the real value of relocating the Coyotes would be. Franchise fee + relocation fee would be at least double what True North paid on the Thrashers I would think. $370 million roughly would be my guess, perhaps a shade more.

Whats the relocation fee for? U can move a team for way less than that.
 

dkitson16

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I thought it had to do with the Summit. The NHL was very adamant about new arenas in the 90s as being the key to revenue growth, and the Toyota Centre didn't get built until 2003, when all expansion and relocation had already taken place.

This is my recollection without looking anything up.

McNair was partner with Chuck Watson and had operating rights over Summit. Alexander had basketball lease with them (being the only NBA team paying a minor league hockey operator for rent). Watson (McNair) were negotiating with Houston to build a new arena with 50/50 split between NHL and NBA. Alexander wanted an NBA only arena as the needed all the revenue to support NBA team and if there was NHL he had to control it.

A new arena was delayed as Alexander had a signed lease in the Summit and Watson wouldn't let him out of it, unless they came to an agreement on the new arena.

The NHL picked the Watson/McNair group over Alexander, hoping they could work the new arena out, by the expansion deadline, but they couldn't, so Houston was passed over.

Once Alexander came to a deal on an arena with the city (with no NHL Watson was in no position to) there was a referendum on city/county financing. On the first public vote Watson / McNair spent millions supporting the no vote as the proposed arena only allowed Alexander to own an NHL team. The no vote won.

In the next Public referendum the arena deal allowed for anyone to own NHL team. Watson didn't fund the no vote campaign and the yes vote won.
All this delayed the building of Toyota.

Eventually the city approved the Alexander arena, and the agreement allowed for other parties to operate an NHL team there.

The Maloofs were the third bidders on Houston expansion for the late eighties.

McNair went after the NFL.

Years later Alexander would bump up the rent on Watson's Houston Aeros forcing them out of Houston, and perhaps gaining a measure of revenge for the expansion and arena scenarios.
 
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CanadianCoyote

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Seems Mr. Fertitta's looking for government assistance. Funny, I thought he said he would survive without any government assistance in March. Another blow to his ambitions of a Houston NHL franchise.

Whats the relocation fee for? U can move a team for way less than that.
The NHL makes team owners pay a fee for relocating a franchise on top of the actual fee of buying the team itself. It's a measure that ensures relocation doesn't happen often.

For example, True North paid the NHL $170m to buy and move the Thrashers from Atlanta to Winnipeg, eating a $60m relocation fee on top of the other expenses. I doubt the NHL lowers the prices to get Fertitta in; they're not even willing to lower the bar to get Québec into the league, and they have everything already lined up and waiting for a team like the Panthers to fall into dire straits.

So if Fertitta wants to, for example, buy and move the Coyotes to Houston, not only does he have to be able to pay the fee to actually buy the team from Meruelo, he also has to be able to pay the relocation fee on top of that.

Otherwise, he's not going to be moving the team anywhere but to a different arena in Phoenix.
 
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Pandemonia

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Seems Mr. Fertitta's looking for government assistance. Funny, I thought he said he would survive without any government assistance in March. Another blow to his ambitions of a Houston NHL franchise.


The NHL makes team owners pay a fee for relocating a franchise on top of the actual fee of buying the team itself. It's a measure that ensures relocation doesn't happen often.

For example, True North paid the NHL $170m to buy and move the Thrashers from Atlanta to Winnipeg, eating a $60m relocation fee on top of the other expenses. I doubt the NHL lowers the prices to get Fertitta in; they're not even willing to lower the bar to get Québec into the league, and they have everything already lined up and waiting for a team like the Panthers to fall into dire straits.

So if Fertitta wants to, for example, buy and move the Coyotes to Houston, not only does he have to be able to pay the fee to actually buy the team from Meruelo, he also has to be able to pay the relocation fee on top of that.

Otherwise, he's not going to be moving the team anywhere but to a different arena in Phoenix.

Thx. Who gets the extra 60mil ? The league or the Meruelo selling the team?
 

MNNumbers

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Let me fill in the details on the Thrashers sale.....

First, there was an unpublished agreement between True North and the NHL that, if Glendale wouldn't pony up the 15M/yr AMF which Ice Arizona was asking in order to purchase the Yotes from out of league ownership, that TNSE could buy them and move them back to Winnipeg for 170M.

However, as it happened, the Thrashers were under a fire sale, and TNSE made a deal with AtlantaSportsGroup to purchase the Thrashers for 110M and move them to Winnipeg instead.

The league cried foul on the basis that TNSE got a discount, and so they charged TNSE a 60M relocation fee, which they claimed was the difference in market value between Atlanta and Winnipeg. They had to couch it in those terms, because they had a legal right the franchising the Winnipeg market. In other words, with no team in Winnipeg, the NHL owned the rights to the Winnipeg market. So, essentially, the relocation fee was the different in value of markets, which belonged to the NHL as franchiser.

Before moving: TNSE owns the team and the rights to the Atlanta market. NHL owns rights to Winnipeg market
After moving: TNSE owns the team and rights to Winnipeg. NHL owns rights to Atlanta.

So, the league got the extra 60M. But what they really got was protection for franchise values. Because if a sale happened for 110M, then the value of every team would decrease.

So, the relo fee is really way for the BOG to protect franchise values.

There is nothing magic about the 60M. They can charge whatever they want.

For example, the Yotes might go on sale for 300M. NHL might decide that Houston as a market is wroth 500M. Then the relo fee is going to be 200M.

There will be no discounts as long as someone is willing to own them in Phoenix.
 

Pandemonia

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Before moving: TNSE owns the team and the rights to the Atlanta market. NHL owns rights to Winnipeg market
After moving: TNSE owns the team and rights to Winnipeg. NHL owns rights to Atlanta.

So, the league got the extra 60M. But what they really got was protection for franchise values. Because if a sale happened for 110M, then the value of every team would decrease.

So, the relo fee is really way for the BOG to protect franchise values.


There is nothing magic about the 60M. They can charge whatever they want.

For example, the Yotes might go on sale for 300M. NHL might decide that Houston as a market is wroth 500M. Then the relo fee is going to be 200M.

There will be no discounts as long as someone is willing to own them in Phoenix.

Great expo, thx. But Ive got problems with the bolded part.

The sale DID happen for 110. The extra 60 was a relocation fee. But the fee isnt there to protect franchise value coz everyone knows the team sold for 110. The fee is there to punish the buyer for getting a cheap deal, what u call "cried foul that got a discount".

If the NHL said that a team in Atlanta is worth 110 but the same team in Winnipeg is worth 170 - then that sets it up that tons of teams could be more valuable if the owners move them elsewhere. Would the Blues be worth more in Toronto? Totally. Would Ottawa be worth more in NYC? Of course. You follow that business reasoning and lots of owners are gonna see tons more money to be made in Houston or Quebec or wheverever even with a reloc fee. Can the NHL claim they got marketing rights in a city theyve never been in?
 
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MNNumbers

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Great expo, thx. But Ive got problems with the bolded part.

The sale DID happen for 110. The extra 60 was a relocation fee. But the fee isnt there to protect franchise value coz everyone knows the team sold for 110. The fee is there to punish the buyer for getting a cheap deal, what u call "cried foul that got a discount".

If the NHL said that a team in Atlanta is worth 110 but the same team in Winnipeg is worth 170 - then that sets it up that tons of teams could be more valuable if the owners move them elsewhere. Would the Blues be worth more in Toronto? Totally. Would Ottawa be worth more in NYC? Of course. You follow that business reasoning and lots of owners are gonna see tons more money to be made in Houston or Quebec or wheverever even with a reloc fee. Can the NHL claim they got marketing rights in a city theyve never been in?

Let me back up. The NHL actually placed the 60M relocation fee because they had an agreement with TNSE for a team for Winnipeg (Phoenix relocation) at the price of 170M. They didn't like it that TNSE was able to buy from ASG for only 110, so they assessed the fee to increase the price to 170M, which was the agreed upon price if TNSE bought the Thrashers.

From the NHL's standpoint, what happens if Winnipeg (TNSE) is allowed to purchase the Thrashers and move them to Winnipeg for only 110M? What happens is that the market (Winnipeg) is devalued, and, therefore, every other market is also devalued. So, the relocation fee is a way of keeping the value of markets high.

However, you are correct that, in one sense, this is legalese.... Everyone knows they purchased the team for 110M, and the relo fee was somewhat bogus. There was no market analysis to determine what the difference in market value was. In fast, there is no such analysis for any market. If there were, then an expansion franchise in Vegas, and one in Quebec, for example, would have different fees to enter the league, and we know it didn't work that way.

So, the relo fee is artificial.

But, yes, the NHL does claim rights to any market without a team. That is the legal reasoning behind a relocation fee. However, there is no legal oversight over what the fee is. The NHL seems to be able to set it as whatever they want. This is upheld, in court, by the recent moves in the NFL to Los Angeles and to Las Vegas.

As for owners...well, there are other market protections which prohibit anyone from moving to Toronto, because MLSE already owns the rights there, so another team has to pay a market infringement, and we all assume that would be a HUGE fee. Same applies in NYC.

Now, imagine your concerns about Quebec and Houston.

First of all, Quebec is NOT the cash cow that everyone things it is. It's a government town, so there are restrictions in Canadian law against government employees treating business guests to entertainment. That means there is not as much market for the high end club seats and so on that there is in other places. There is some, but it's no guarantee for sure. Also, QC is NOT a huge population center. It's a good question what would happen to demand for tickets after a few years of no playoffs (see Winnipeg as a comparison).

Now, Houston. Big question there is, "Where are you going to play?" The only place is Toyota Center, and Fertitta owns the rights to manage the place, so you are going to be paying him rent, and your lease terms are going to be decidedly unfavorable. No naming rights, no other income except game nights. etc. Now, I have no doubt you could do better there in terms of income than the Coyotes are doing in Glendale (where they also pay rent), but you might still have losses, and there will be a 200M or more relocation fee attached. So, it might be 10 years or more before you can make up the relocation fee. It's a tough thing to manage, really.

Then, there are the ownership terms which, usually, prohibit relocating franchises until after 7 years of ownership. And, there is the lease which every team has in its current arena. If the host city either paid to build it, or is paying some kind of management fee, they don't want their money to be lost, so the price the team pays is a legal promise to be there for awhile. That's why Florida can't move until 2024 at the earliest.

So, the short answer is: Yes, the NHL has rights to the markets without teams. And....No, it's not quite as lucrative as you might think to relocate, nor it is as possible for legal reasons.

One thing behind a lot of this is that all sports leagues in North America like it when cities put up the cash for arenas and stadiums. Having a lot of relocations lessens the appetite in cities to build, because 'what if they leave soon'. Therefore, the leagues themselves discourage relocations.
 
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mouser

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Great expo, thx. But Ive got problems with the bolded part.

The sale DID happen for 110. The extra 60 was a relocation fee. But the fee isnt there to protect franchise value coz everyone knows the team sold for 110. The fee is there to punish the buyer for getting a cheap deal, what u call "cried foul that got a discount".

If the NHL said that a team in Atlanta is worth 110 but the same team in Winnipeg is worth 170 - then that sets it up that tons of teams could be more valuable if the owners move them elsewhere. Would the Blues be worth more in Toronto? Totally. Would Ottawa be worth more in NYC? Of course. You follow that business reasoning and lots of owners are gonna see tons more money to be made in Houston or Quebec or wheverever even with a reloc fee. Can the NHL claim they got marketing rights in a city theyve never been in?

The NHL is legally a unincorporated joint venture. The individual franchises are given rights to operate a specific team in a specific "home" territory. The value of placing a new franchise in a market outside of the team home territories belongs collectively to the 31 owners. As well as the difference between that value of an expansion team vs a relocation. The owners of each team don't have a default right to a mobile franchise to relocate anywhere they want.

It can be debated how much this is restricted by anti-trust law, but that's a different topic.
 

Pandemonia

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Let me back up. The NHL actually placed the 60M relocation fee because they had an agreement with TNSE for a team for Winnipeg (Phoenix relocation) at the price of 170M. They didn't like it that TNSE was able to buy from ASG for only 110, so they assessed the fee to increase the price to 170M, which was the agreed upon price if TNSE bought the Thrashers.

From the NHL's standpoint, what happens if Winnipeg (TNSE) is allowed to purchase the Thrashers and move them to Winnipeg for only 110M? What happens is that the market (Winnipeg) is devalued, and, therefore, every other market is also devalued. So, the relocation fee is a way of keeping the value of markets high.

However, you are correct that, in one sense, this is legalese.... Everyone knows they purchased the team for 110M, and the relo fee was somewhat bogus. There was no market analysis to determine what the difference in market value was. In fast, there is no such analysis for any market. If there were, then an expansion franchise in Vegas, and one in Quebec, for example, would have different fees to enter the league, and we know it didn't work that way.

So, the relo fee is artificial.

But, yes, the NHL does claim rights to any market without a team. That is the legal reasoning behind a relocation fee. However, there is no legal oversight over what the fee is. The NHL seems to be able to set it as whatever they want. This is upheld, in court, by the recent moves in the NFL to Los Angeles and to Las Vegas.

As for owners...well, there are other market protections which prohibit anyone from moving to Toronto, because MLSE already owns the rights there, so another team has to pay a market infringement, and we all assume that would be a HUGE fee. Same applies in NYC.

Now, imagine your concerns about Quebec and Houston.

First of all, Quebec is NOT the cash cow that everyone things it is. It's a government town, so there are restrictions in Canadian law against government employees treating business guests to entertainment. That means there is not as much market for the high end club seats and so on that there is in other places. There is some, but it's no guarantee for sure. Also, QC is NOT a huge population center. It's a good question what would happen to demand for tickets after a few years of no playoffs (see Winnipeg as a comparison).

Now, Houston. Big question there is, "Where are you going to play?" The only place is Toyota Center, and Fertitta owns the rights to manage the place, so you are going to be paying him rent, and your lease terms are going to be decidedly unfavorable. No naming rights, no other income except game nights. etc. Now, I have no doubt you could do better there in terms of income than the Coyotes are doing in Glendale (where they also pay rent), but you might still have losses, and there will be a 200M or more relocation fee attached. So, it might be 10 years or more before you can make up the relocation fee. It's a tough thing to manage, really.

Then, there are the ownership terms which, usually, prohibit relocating franchises until after 7 years of ownership. And, there is the lease which every team has in its current arena. If the host city either paid to build it, or is paying some kind of management fee, they don't want their money to be lost, so the price the team pays is a legal promise to be there for awhile. That's why Florida can't move until 2024 at the earliest.

So, the short answer is: Yes, the NHL has rights to the markets without teams. And....No, it's not quite as lucrative as you might think to relocate, nor it is as possible for legal reasons.

One thing behind a lot of this is that all sports leagues in North America like it when cities put up the cash for arenas and stadiums. Having a lot of relocations lessens the appetite in cities to build, because 'what if they leave soon'. Therefore, the leagues themselves discourage relocations.

Great answer, thx. Didnt see it right off because Im finishing up MLS stuff in BigSoccer board. Liked everything u said but teams do buy themselves out of leases which you probably already know. Your also totally bang on about relocation stiffs your city and then no other cities will pony up for your next stadium. Again, great detailed reply so thx muchly.
 

Pandemonia

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The NHL is legally a unincorporated joint venture. The individual franchises are given rights to operate a specific team in a specific "home" territory. The value of placing a new franchise in a market outside of the team home territories belongs collectively to the 31 owners. As well as the difference between that value of an expansion team vs a relocation. The owners of each team don't have a default right to a mobile franchise to relocate anywhere they want.

It can be debated how much this is restricted by anti-trust law, but that's a different topic.

Yeah, making NHL Enterprises Inc. a non-profit parent is pretty clever but probably wouldnt survive a FTC deep dive. Anyway the league IS legally incorporated and dont take my word for it check out Bloomberg and D&B will tell you its incorporated. Your right tho about the franchise buys u a specific market area. Thx for the reply.
 
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mouser

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Yeah, making NHL Enterprises Inc. a non-profit parent is pretty clever but probably wouldnt survive a FTC deep dive. Anyway the league IS legally incorporated and dont take my word for it check out Bloomberg and D&S will tell you its incorporated. Your right tho about the franchise buys u a specific market area. Thx for the reply.

A recent example from 2015:

EX-3.8

(i) the NATIONAL HOCKEY LEAGUE, a joint venture organized as an unincorporated association (the “NHL”)

If you search around you’ll find a lot of legal discussions about the various sports leagues being joint ventures.

What is the difference between incorporated and unincorporated joint venture - Malescu Law, PA - Miami Business & Immigration Lawyers
 

Pandemonia

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A recent example from 2015:

EX-3.8

(i) the NATIONAL HOCKEY LEAGUE, a joint venture organized as an unincorporated association (the “NHL”)

If you search around you’ll find a lot of legal discussions about the various sports leagues being joint ventures.

What is the difference between incorporated and unincorporated joint venture - Malescu Law, PA - Miami Business & Immigration Lawyers

See you and raise you a couple. If u want recent, both from Sept 2020:

National Hockey League Inc - Company Profile and News

Nhl Enterprises, Inc. | Company Profile | Vault.com

You also have to note the diff between the NPCL parent and the corps that filed the NY state paperwork. Don't have to take their word for it. If you can get into the NYS Div of Corporations and search the entities database u get even more recent NHL incorporations. Check out entity 206107 or 2043701.
 

mouser

Business of Hockey
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See you and raise you a couple. If u want recent, both from Sept 2020:

National Hockey League Inc - Company Profile and News

Nhl Enterprises, Inc. | Company Profile | Vault.com

You also have to note the diff between the NPCL parent and the corps that filed the NY state paperwork. Don't have to take their word for it. If you can get into the NYS Div of Corporations and search the entities database u get even more recent NHL incorporations. Check out entity 206107 or 2043701.

Individual units of the business structure can be incorporated, these sites don't fully clarify the exact status of the listed entities either.

The league as an entire entity comprising the 31 teams is unincorporated. This is pretty straight forward to empirically observe. If the league was incorporated then the 31 partners would have legal rights we haven't seen them successfully exercise when conflicts arise, such as the Dolan vs NHL streaming issue.
 

mouser

Business of Hockey
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South Mountain
BTW is NHL single entity, like MLS?

MLS is unique among the upper tier North American sports leagues in being single entity. The NHL, NFL, NBA and MLB are not single entity.

There have been many various debates over whether it would benefit the NHL/NFL/NBA/MLB to become single entity, primarily to avoid some elements of anti-trust law. The most simple example being MLS can do things without a CBA that the other four leagues cannot, such as hold a draft.

Practically it would be next to impossible for any of the big four to convert to a single entity like MLS.
 
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jcs0218

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There have been many various debates over whether it would benefit the NHL/NFL/NBA/MLB to become single entity, primarily to avoid some elements of anti-trust law. The most simple example being MLS can do things without a CBA that the other four leagues cannot, such as hold a draft.
Antitrust law is meant to deter collusion.

The NHL/NFL/NBA/MLB adopting a single-entity business model would be bad for the game, because it would encourage collusion amongst the teams.
 

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