Movies: Rise of Skywalker [SPOILER] Edition

[Tawnos]

Is it an arc if the third movie simply says "You know all that happened in the previous two movies? Yeah no, he's a good guy now, despite not looking conflicted for the first half of the movie you are watching right now"?

At no point in the first 2 and 4/5 of the OT does Vader look or act conflicted.

 

[Trap Jesus]

Kylo Ren had the best arc in this trilogy!

He's quite honestly the only reason this trilogy was salvageable to me. Considering the character, the consistency of his character throughout the entire trilogy, and Driver's performance, I'd actually consider him the best Star Wars character period.

I don't think this movie was as bad as everyone is saying it is, but it's still super messy. I was honestly in disbelief at how they revealed Palpatine in the crawl. It was a laughable moment right off the bat.

 

[Blender]

At no point in the first 2 and 4/5 of the OT does Vader look or act conflicted.

He clearly doesn't want to kill Luke in ESB or ROTJ, he wants him to join him. He kills Palpatine to save Luke's life, not to be a savior to the galaxy or anything.

 

[Tawnos]

He clearly doesn't want to kill Luke in ESB or ROTJ, he wants him to join him. He kills Palpatine to save Luke's life, not to be a savior to the galaxy or anything.

He wanted Luke to turn to the Dark Side and, as a Sith, the idea of overthrowing your master comes with the territory. He wasn't acting conflicted at all.

 

[hb12xchamps]

I think JJ wanted Finn to be force sensitive in the overall story.

In TFA, Finn is a stormtrooper defector who didn't want to kill innocent people. That might not directly show force sensitive abilities but it shows a moral compass. He also does pretty well in the lightsaber battle with Kylo for a guy with zero training against Kylo who definitely has years of training with a lightsaber (Luke trained him before Snoke).

I can't think of any force sensitive moments in TLJ which makes me wonder if Rian didn't want that to be part of Finn's story?

 

[Blender]

He wanted Luke to turn to the Dark Side and, as a Sith, the idea of overthrowing your master comes with the territory. He wasn't acting conflicted at all.

He wasn't conflicted about watching his son die? That's a stretch.

Return of the Jedi is easily the worst of the OT anyways, and a big step down from ESB and ANH. It's not a great movie, it's ok at best.

 

[Tawnos]

He wasn't conflicted about watching his son die? That's a stretch.

Return of the Jedi is easily the worst of the OT anyways, and a big step down from ESB and ANH. It's not a great movie, it's ok at best.

I said for the first 2 and 4/5. He *was* conflicted about watching his son die. But that happens at the very end.

 

[Blender]

I said for the first 2 and 4/5. He *was* conflicted about watching his son die. But that happens at the very end.

He doesn't want to kill his son in ESB or ROTJ though, not just at the end. He doesn't share his motivation, so you don't know whether it was only driven by gaining an apprentice to kill Palpatine or a mix of that and wanting his son by his side, you're just assuming it's only the former.

When Luke first sees Vader on Endor as well in ROTJ:

Luke: Search your feelings, father. You can't do this. I feel the conflict within you. Let go of your hate.
Vader: It is... too late for me, son. The Emperor will show you the true nature of the Force. He is your master now.

Clearly there is some conflict there.

 

[Tawnos]

He doesn't want to kill his son in ESB or ROTJ though, not just at the end. He doesn't share his motivation, so you don't know whether it was only driven by gaining an apprentice to kill Palpatine or a mix of that and wanting his son by his side, you're just assuming it's only the former.

Him wanting Luke by his side, which I never said he didn't, doesn't show him as conflicted. Vader asks Luke to join him so he can complete his training, telling him that he doesn't know the power of the Dark Side, and that he can destroy the Emperor so they can rule as father and son. There's no light/dark conflict involved in the proposition. He's trying to turn Luke.

We know that Vader had the light/dark conflict going on because Luke told us so, and then Vader proves him right by killing the Emperor, not for his own gain, but to protect someone else. Before that moment of him turning on the Emperor, everything Vader does is consistent with someone dedicated to the Dark Side.

Alright, fine... I'll adjust what I said... Vader doesn't show any conflict for 2.5 movies, not 2.8. My point is that if you don't have a problem with that, you shouldn't have a problem with Kylo Ren not showing any signs of conflict for a mere half of a movie.

 

[OhCaptainMyCaptain]

Kylo showed way more internal conflict during this trilogy that Vader. It seemed to be the only consistent thing in this trilogy.

 

[Blender]

Him wanting Luke by his side, which I never said he didn't, doesn't show him as conflicted. Vader asks Luke to join him so he can complete his training, telling him that he doesn't know the power of the Dark Side, and that he can destroy the Emperor so they can rule as father and son. There's no light/dark conflict involved in the proposition. He's trying to turn Luke.

We know that Vader had the light/dark conflict going on because Luke told us so, and then Vader proves him right by killing the Emperor, not for his own gain, but to protect someone else. Before that moment of him turning on the Emperor, everything Vader does is consistent with someone dedicated to the Dark Side.

It's all because of a well established connection to Luke, his son who is also a conduit for regret and sadness in his life, going back to ESB though, so I don't see the issue that you have here. The contrast with Kylo Ren is that he doesn't really have a meaningful connection to Rey that they developed, the turn feels unearned.

 

[Blender]

Kylo showed way more internal conflict during this trilogy that Vader. It seemed to be the only consistent thing in this trilogy.

He definitely did, I just didn't think Rey was a good catalyst for it in the end. They needed to have done more earlier in the story to build up a connection there than just hamfisting the "force dyad" thing in at the last minute.

 

[Tawnos]

It's all because of a well established connection to Luke, his son who is also a conduit for regret and sadness in his life, going back to ESB though, so I don't see the issue that you have here. The contrast with Kylo Ren is that he doesn't really have a meaningful connection to Rey that they developed, the turn feels unearned.

What? Ren doesn't have a meaningful connection to Rey?

Did you actually watch The Last Jedi?

 

[OhCaptainMyCaptain]

He definitely did, I just didn't think Rey was a good catalyst for it in the end. They needed to have done more earlier in the story to build up a connection there than just hamfisting the "force dyad" thing in at the last minute.

Did you skip The Last Jedi??

 

[Blender]

Did you skip The Last Jedi??

Yes, and it was poorly done. They don't develop much of an emotional connection, it's all just steps to move the plot forward. They start communicating over the force for exposition reasons, Kylo when ordered by Snoke to kill Rey instead kills Snoke, etc. Where is the developing romantic bond that they suddenly shoved in at the end of RoS?

 

[OhCaptainMyCaptain]

Yes, and it was poorly done. They don't develop much of an emotional connection, it's all just steps to move the plot forward. They start communicating over the force for exposition reasons, Kylo when ordered by Snoke to kill Rey instead kills Snoke, etc. Where is the developing romantic bond that they suddenly shoved in at the end of RoS?

This discussion wasn't about their romantic bond...

They definitely established a close bond in that movie. Don't know if it was romantic, but that's not really the point here.

 

[OhCaptainMyCaptain]

Also, his turn to the light was more than just because of Rey. Don't forget about the influence of his mother and father. Both TLJ and TRoS establish a sense of love towards his mother, and both movies hint at the trouble he was still dealing with over killing his father. When you connect that with Rey trying to bring him to the light, there are multiple layers going on there.

 

[Tawnos]

This discussion wasn't about their romantic bond...

They definitely established a close bond in that movie. Don't know if it was romantic, but that's not really the point here.

Plenty of people saw their bond in TLJ as having romantic overtones. The way Rey reacts to shirtless Kylo is part of that, but I also think the intimacy of the scene they share when Luke discovers them fueled it too. The delivery of how he asks her to join him at the end of TLJ has big emotional overtones as well. There's plenty of emotional connection between the two even before we understand the Force Dyad thing.

 

[OhCaptainMyCaptain]

Plenty of people saw their bond in TLJ as having romantic overtones. The way Rey reacts to shirtless Kylo is part of that, but I also think the intimacy of the scene they share when Luke discovers them fueled it too. The delivery of how he asks her to join him at the end of TLJ has big emotional overtones as well. There's plenty of emotional connection between the two even before we understand the Force Dyad thing.

I am just saying I can understand people questioning the romantic part. But.. whether or not you believe it was romantic, you can't deny that they had a close connection, which obviously played a large role in this movie. It wasn't something that was just made up in this one.

 

[Tawnos]

I am just saying I can understand people questioning the romantic part. But.. whether or not you believe it was romantic, you can't deny that they had a close connection, which obviously played a large role in this movie. It wasn't something that was just made up in this one.

Agreed.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

At no point in the first 2 and 4/5 of the OT does Vader look or act conflicted.

I fail to see the point of this comparison unless all you want is more copy/paste from the OT.

 

[OhCaptainMyCaptain]

I fail to see the point of this comparison unless all you want is more copy/paste from the OT.

The point of this comparison was responding to people who said Kylo's redemption came out of where, but have no quarrel with Vader's redemption, even though Kylo's turn to the light was actually more fleshed out than Vader's. Nobody is saying they want more copy/paste, and I fail to see where that point even came from.

 

[Tawnos]

The point of this comparison was responding to people who said Kylo's redemption came out of where, but have no quarrel with Vader's redemption, even though Kylo's turn to the light was actually more fleshed out than Vader's. Nobody is saying they want more copy/paste, and I fail to see where that point even came from.

This exactly.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

The point of this comparison was responding to people who said Kylo's redemption came out of where, but have no quarrel with Vader's redemption, even though Kylo's turn to the light was actually more fleshed out than Vader's. Nobody is saying they want more copy/paste, and I fail to see where that point even came from.

Kylo's redemption did come out of nowhere. The fact that it also did for Vader is meaningless, Vader did not get anywhere the amount of screen time, character development and most importantly agency as Kylo did.

The comparison is not only stupid but in bad faith.

 

[OhCaptainMyCaptain]

Kylo's redemption did come out of nowhere. The fact that it also did for Vader is meaningless, Vader did not get anywhere the amount of screen time, character development and most importantly agency as Kylo did.

The comparison is not only stupid but in bad faith.

It's actually a very logical and worthy comparison.