Movies: Rise of Skywalker [SPOILER] Edition

[Do Make Say Think]

It's actually a very logical and worthy comparison.

One character is shown struggling and at two critical moments decides to be evil. The protagonist wants to redeem said evil character and gives up up on him in the second movie.

Hell Vader asks Luke to team up with him to overthrow Palpatine, that is a pretty obvious set up for his turning in RotJ.

Vader and Kylo are not the same character and have different arcs. That one thing happens to one doesn't make it happening again ok. These are not the same stories. Part of the appeal of Kylo in TFA was that we would get to see the incompetent and unhinged villain become a fearsome badass.

"I think we could improve the depth of characters in Star Wars"
"Yet you like the old movies. Curious, I am very intelligent"

Not only is it bad faith, it betrays a profound lack of understanding of how characters work in stories.

 

[Tawnos]

Kylo's redemption did come out of nowhere. The fact that it also did for Vader is meaningless, Vader did not get anywhere the amount of screen time, character development and most importantly agency as Kylo did.

The comparison is not only stupid but in bad faith.

Well, there were two points in me saying it. One was that redemption coming out of nowhere isn't a problem that people have with Vader. But also, it did work well for Vader, whose redemption came on pretty suddenly. I don't really think the criticism has much basis to it, because it's already been proven that sudden redemption can work well. If your complaint is that they didn't do Kylo's sudden turn well, that's one thing, but the suddenness itself being a problem is hard to justify.

That being said, Kylo's redemption comes out of nowhere only if you ignore anything else that's happened in the prior movies. I would also argue that he opened himself up to redemption as soon as he decided to pursue his own agenda with Rey, rather than Palpatine's, so the story begins in this movie much earlier than the lightsaber battle he and Rey have on Endor.

 

[Jussi]

Kylo's redemption did come out of nowhere. The fact that it also did for Vader is meaningless, Vader did not get anywhere the amount of screen time, character development and most importantly agency as Kylo did.

The comparison is not only stupid but in bad faith.

No it didn't. He was shown to be struggling since TFA. Didn't fire at his mother in TLJ when he had the chance. Then his mother called out to him, Rey killed him, healed him with the Force and he was no longer Kylo Ren but Ben Solo. It was logical and well executed and I will fight you to death with pillows over it.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

That being said, Kylo's redemption comes out of nowhere only if you ignore anything else that's happened in the prior movies. I would also argue that he opened himself up to redemption as soon as he decided to pursue his own agenda with Rey, rather than Palpatine's, so the story begins in this movie much earlier than the lightsaber battle he and Rey have on Endor.

So just like Vader asked Luke to join him at the end of ESB. This hardly strengthens your argument of:

- There was no set up for Vader turning
- It came out of left field

Then you have the matter of VII and VIII both using key moments to convey that Kylo is evil because he chooses to. That matters a lot but your argument seems to boil down to "ya but there are some lines of dialogue in IX that means that's fine".

 

[OhCaptainMyCaptain]

One character is shown struggling and at two critical moments decides to be evil. The protagonist wants to redeem said evil character and gives up up on him in the second movie.

Hell Vader asks Luke to team up with him to overthrow Palpatine, that is a pretty obvious set up for his turning in RotJ.

Vader and Kylo are not the same character and have different arcs. That one thing happens to one doesn't make it happening again ok. These are not the same stories. Part of the appeal of Kylo in TFA was that we would get to see the incompetent and unhinged villain become a fearsome badass.

"I think we could improve the depth of characters in Star Wars"
"Yet you like the old movies. Curious, I am very intelligent"

Not only is it bad faith, it betrays a profound lack of understanding of how characters work in stories.

Rey did not give up on Kylo. She mentions at the beginning of this movie that Kylo is still struggling and has conflict. It seems like maybe you're the one lacking some understanding here, with all due respect.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

No it didn't. He was shown to be struggling since TFA. Didn't fire at his mother in TLJ when he had the chance. Then his mother called out to him, Rey killed him, healed him with the Force and he was no longer Kylo Ren but Ben Solo. It was logical and well executed and I will fight you to death with pillows over it.

Dude, you get emotional at Marvel movies. Good for you that you like them but I'm not going to engage with you about what works and doesn't work in movies since you quite clearly love basically everything.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Rey did not give up on Kylo. She mentions at the beginning of this movie that Kylo is still struggling and has conflict. It seems like maybe you're the one lacking some understanding here, with all due respect.

My whole point is that RoS goes against Kylo's behavioural pattern established in TFA and TLJ.

Claiming a line in RoS addresses it does not constitute a rebutal, it is exactly my point.

One of the last thing Rey does in TLJ is close the door on Kylo, she's done with him. That they spend time in RoS setting up something that happens in RoS doesn't go against that.

 

[OhCaptainMyCaptain]

My whole point is that RoS goes against Kylo's behavioural pattern established in TFA and TLJ.

Claiming a line in RoS addresses it does not constitute a rebutal, it is exactly my point.

One of the last thing Rey does in TLJ is close the door on Kylo, she's done with him. That they spend time in RoS setting up something that happens in RoS doesn't go against that.

She closed the door on joining him, but still saw his conflict. Yes.

You're right that she had moved on from trying to flip him to the light. Yes.

But then she saw his reaction to his mother. It confirmed what she saw previously in him, that there was still a strong conflict in him and that there was some goodness. So she saved his life, and he got to re-do that conversation with his father before completely turning. Call me crazy, but I think that works great.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

She closed the door on joining him, but still saw his conflict. Yes.

You're right that she had moved on from trying to flip him to the light. Yes.

But then she saw his reaction to his mother. It confirmed what she saw previously in him, that there was still a strong conflict in him and that there was some goodness. So she saved his life, and he got to re-do that conversation with his father before completely turning. Call me crazy, but I think that works great.

It works within IX yes, the Han/Ben talk is a highlight.

My point is that IX goes against what VII and VIII established. Kylo is conflicted in TFA but decides to kill his dad and his only moment of hesitation in VIII is killing his mother and while he doesn't do it, he doesn't seem that distraught about it when it does happen (since he probably thinks Leia is dead after the bridge blows up)

 

[Tawnos]

So just like Vader asked Luke to join him at the end of ESB. This hardly strengthens your argument of:

- There was no set up for Vader turning
- It came out of left field

Then you have the matter of VII and VIII both using key moments to convey that Kylo is evil because he chooses to. That matters a lot but your argument seems to boil down to "ya but there are some lines of dialogue in IX that means that's fine".

Vader asking Luke to join him at the end of ESB isn't setup that he might turn. It doesn't show any sense of light/dark conflict. The entirety of the hints that Vader might turn come later on in RotJ. I think the first time we even consider it a possibility that he could be turned is when Luke tells Obi-Wan that there's still good in him. The whole thing comes out of left field relative to the entirety of the trilogy. We go through 2 movies and are well into the 3rd one before the idea is even considered that he might be turned, and then it happens in the space of a single act of the movie. Of course, taken in context of the entirety of the series, including the PT, it's pretty obvious that he might be turned.

Us being shown that Kylo is evil because he chooses to be evil by necessity leaves the door open for him being able to choose otherwise. It's not evidence that Kylo's turn comes out of nowhere... it's the opposite.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Of course, taken in context of the entirety of the series, including the PT, it's pretty obvious that he might be turned.

Now do you see why I commented that claiming "well that is how it went down with Vader and it was fine" was asking for more of the same?

The cool part about Kylo was that he was pure evil, that he struggled with being attracted by the light as opposed to a good guy attracted by evil, we've seen that happen with Anakin and Luke.

We could be doing something new and exciting? Nah, let's just do the redemption thing again!

 

[Tawnos]

Now do you see why I commented that claiming "well that is how it went down with Vader and it was fine" was asking for more of the same?

The cool part about Kylo was that he was pure evil, that he struggled with being attracted by the light as opposed to a good guy attracted by evil, we've seen that happen with Anakin and Luke.

We could be doing something new and exciting? Nah, let's just do the redemption thing again!

I never thought he was.

 

[Jussi]

Dude, you get emotional at Marvel movies. Good for you that you like them but I'm not going to engage with you about what works and doesn't work in movies since you quite clearly love basically everything.

Nah, I don't like you. My friend doesn't like you. We have a death sentence...Nevermind.

I didn't like the prequel movies, apart from ROTS, which was passable. Neither did I like Rogue One.

Also, if you're not getting emotional at

Spoiler

Tony Stark dying

, maybe the problem is at your end?

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

Film made $29.2M on Monday which is strong day 4

With holiday and no major opposition it appears that film is set to have strong week/2nd weekend

Also collected 28M overseas on Monday and is expected to likely cross $500M gross by Wed

After 4 days its domestic BO = $206M
Its overseas BO = $226.8M
Worldwide Gross currently = $433.4M

Looking at #'s my god the reshoots of Solo caused that thing to escalate in costs dramatically

Solo production ended up costing $275M
TFA cost $245M
TLJ cost $317M
TROS estimates range from $250-300M to make

Solo really sticks out like sore thumb as major mistake though the end product was actually not that bad and didn't deserve fate of being the failure in SW saga it has become

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Film made $29.2M on Monday which is strong day 4

I wonder how much of it is morbid curiosity

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Nah, I don't like you. My friend doesn't like you. We have a death sentence...Nevermind.

I didn't like the prequel movies, apart from ROTS, which was passable. Neither did I like Rogue One.

Also, if you're not getting emotional at

Spoiler

Tony Stark dying

, maybe the problem is at your end?

Rogue One was awful so good on ya.

No I don't really get emotional at fictional characters dying. I can appreciate that it was well done without getting emotional.

I was more thinking about your initial impressions of Civil War. That movie is definitely not emotional or memorable (outside of one set piece) but you were going bananas over it.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

Rogue One was great IMO

One of the best SW movies

Far better then the prequels and that mediocre Return of the Jedi that people seem to fawn over for some reason

 

[Tawnos]

Rogue One was awful so good on ya.

No I don't really get emotional at fictional characters dying. I can appreciate that it was well done without getting emotional.

I was more thinking about your initial impressions of Civil War. That movie is definitely not emotional or memorable (outside of one set piece) but you were going bananas over it.

I tend to get more emotional at character reactions to people dying than the death itself. For example, Chewie's reaction to finding out Leia died had my eyes watering.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

I tend to get more emotional at character reactions to people dying that the death itself. For example, Chewie's reaction to finding out Leia died had my eyes watering.

Yes, Chewie essentially going "WTF!? I am the last one standing? What is this garbage" was a good moment.

 

[TP]

Movies: - Rise of Skywalker [SPOILER] Edition - II