Player Discussion Revisiting the Kunin/Greenway/Donato vs. Gaudette Debate

[Pip]

Man is Gaudette getting overrated around here

 

[vanuck]

I'm just going to say it: there is no world in which not even just papering Gaudette for the AHL in case they were to send him down makes sense. None whatsoever.

 

[M2Beezy]

Man is Gaudette getting overrated around here

And its not even me overrating him this time

 

[Canucks1096]

Gaudette is a bona fide GOALSCORER. Has all the tools to be a 30+ goal scorer in the NHL. What an outstanding pickup by the scouting staff. He should be on the 1st unit power play and should be playing in the top 6 at ES.

Bona fide goal scorer can score 5 on 5 and not just on the pp and off of a skate

 

[Askel]

Totally. They didn’t let him practice with the team while he was in the press box and they gave him no opportunities while he was with Utica. I also heard they force him to use some of lindens old used skates. Those evil bastards messing with this poor kids career. They must have a vendetta

My view is that Gaudette has a lot of holes in his game. He can't defend well enough to be a center at the pro level (he might get there) . I think he could have learned a lot playing half a season in the AHL, and then finish the season in the NHL.

When he was moved up my feeling is that Green jerked him around. Playing him 8-10 minutes with crap line mates, scratching/benching him for stuff that a lot of veterans got away with. He should have been tried on the wing in the top 6 last year, bu the Canucks were insistent on only playing him as no4 center.

Also yes he should have been papered down, young players need to play as much as possible

 

[NUhockey]

Please put a reminder on a Calendar in a smartphone. I am not sure you realize how hard 50 plus points is? This year 5 on 5, he has one even strength goal and that was off of a skate . He is not proven and struggling to produce 5 on 5. He did have some time with Horvat and Miller as well. 0 even strength points when those 2 players were on the ice with him. 2nd unit pp had 4 ppg in the last 3 games. That's almost never happens. I am predicting right now that the 2nd unit pp unit will take another 20 games to get another 4 ppg.

See you in April 2020

So your expectation is that he doesn't hit 50 points? That's the measuring stick here? Not a single player receiving under 15 min/game last year broke 50 points. Of course that isn't going to happen.

If so I agree that he won't hit it, but I think it's reasonable to be high on him and believe that he'll have 35-40 points (Like 15G/20A), which is where I stand. That will make him more valuable than the other guys on the list.

Here is my reasoning, with both pros and cons:

• He receives consistent playing time on the 3rd line (14min/game), and upping his assists for 5x5 play. 20% sht rate is too high.
  
• I agree that his pp production will dip on the 2nd unit. But he has the potency to have a solid baseline production there.
• His overall confidence and feel for the game is up despite weaknesses

Your skepticism is warranted, even if it is a bit anecdotal. As we've seen so far with guys like Bjorkstrand, a bump in minutes to middle 6 levels doesn't necessarily translate to higher production. And Gaudette's corsi stats are pretty mediocre and suggest he has work to do if he wants to remain at center.

I'd personally like to see him move to left wing. Center seems like a stretch for him and this team needs to keep winning games.

 

[Tables of Stats]

It feels good getting to bump this again!

Gaudette is, assuming he doesn't record another point tonight, sitting at 47 games played having scored 26 points. That's a 0.553 PPG pace for those keeping score at home.

Donato, 17 in 49, 0.346 PPG pace. Sorry, play again.

Greenway, 20 in 53, 0.377 PPG pace. Sorry, play again.

Kunin, 26 in 54, 0.481 PPG pace. Close, but not there.

Foegele, 25 in 55, 0.454 PPG pace. Also not there.

EDIT: Gaudette recorded a point since I first typed this. The above stats are edited to correctly show his points pace as of that point.

 

[MS]

Foegele is the best player on that list.

 

[Tables of Stats]

Foegele is the best player on that list.

So good that he can't get PP time over noted greats like Wallmark and Niederreiter...

 

[Tables of Stats]

Gaudette: C - 52 GP - 11 G - 19 A - 30 P - 0.577 PPG

Foegele: LW - 62 GP - 13 G - 16 A - 29 P - 0.468 PPG

Kunin: C - 59 GP - 13 G - 14 A - 27 P - 0.458 PPG

Greenway: LW - 60 GP - 7 G - 17 A - 24 P - 0.400 PPG

Donato: C- 55 GP - 12 G - 8 A - 20 P - 0.363 PPG

Gaudette continues to pull away from the pack offensively.

 

[4Twenty]

Interesting comparison.

Donato makes $1.9m x 2. Gaudette is likely after more than that, but he has no real RFA rights as a 10.2c, but his season is certainly making the case to be paid more than that. Will be interesting to see how much Gaudette ends up getting.

 

[AKL]

Gaudette: C - 52 GP - 11 G - 19 A - 30 P - 0.577 PPG

Foegele: LW - 62 GP - 13 G - 16 A - 29 P - 0.468 PPG

Kunin: C - 59 GP - 13 G - 14 A - 27 P - 0.458 PPG

Greenway: LW - 60 GP - 7 G - 17 A - 24 P - 0.400 PPG

Donato: C- 55 GP - 12 G - 8 A - 20 P - 0.363 PPG

Gaudette continues to pull away from the pack offensively.

Would be really interesting if you took player usage into account.

 

[Diamonddog01]

It feels good getting to bump this again!

Gaudette is, assuming he doesn't record another point tonight, sitting at 47 games played having scored 26 points. That's a 0.553 PPG pace for those keeping score at home.

Donato, 17 in 49, 0.346 PPG pace. Sorry, play again.

Greenway, 20 in 53, 0.377 PPG pace. Sorry, play again.

Kunin, 26 in 54, 0.481 PPG pace. Close, but not there.

Foegele, 25 in 55, 0.454 PPG pace. Also not there.

EDIT: Gaudette recorded a point since I first typed this. The above stats are edited to correctly show his points pace as of that point.

I think Kunin is a better two-way player so even if his PPG is marginally below Gaudette's he's be a better fit as our 3rd line C .

 

[Tables of Stats]

Interesting comparison.

Donato makes $1.9m x 2. Gaudette is likely after more than that, but he has no real RFA rights as a 10.2c, but his season is certainly making the case to be paid more than that. Will be interesting to see how much Gaudette ends up getting.

Agreed. It'll also be interesting to see if we get a bridge deal or go right into something with term.

Would be really interesting if you took player usage into account.

I can do that. It'll just take me a while to grab all those numbers and get them into a post?

I think Kunin is a better two-way player so even if his PPG is marginally below Gaudette's he's be a better fit as our 3rd line C .

Is there a reason you quoted a post from over two-weeks ago rather than the one I just made? Also, is Kunin's defense really good enough to make up for the 10 extra points Gaudette is worth over 82 games?

 

[4Twenty]

Agreed. It'll also be interesting to see if we get a bridge deal or go right into something with term.

I think they’ll end up at a 1 year deal. Team can’t afford it and I’d want him to show it twice before giving him multiple years plus the trade off for him would be arbitration rights the next season.

 

[Diamonddog01]

Is there a reason you quoted a post from over two-weeks ago rather than the one I just made? Also, is Kunin's defense really good enough to make up for the 10 extra points Gaudette is worth over 82 games?

No not really, just quoted that one lol. I'd argue it is, he isn't anywhere near as sheltered as Gaudette. Don't get me wrong, I like Gaudette a lot but feel that Kunin is the superior player at this point in time.

 

[AKL]

No not really, just quoted that one lol. I'd argue it is, he isn't anywhere near as sheltered as Gaudette. Don't get me wrong, I like Gaudette a lot but feel that Kunin is the superior player at this point in time.

Kunin has spent a vast majority of his time on Minnesota’s shutdown line that the coaches use against the McDavid’s and Pettersson’s and such. Very little powerplay time, usually ok the PK.

 

[Diamonddog01]

Kunin has spent a vast majority of his time on Minnesota’s shutdown line that the coaches use against the McDavid’s and Pettersson’s and such. Very little powerplay time, usually ok the PK.

I'll be honest, I haven't watched a ton of Minnesota games but I looking at his oz starts I suspected he was being deployed as such. What I have seen I've really liked, which is why I proposed Boeser (possibly Boeser +) for Brodin & Kunin. I think he'd be a very good 3rd line C on our team.

 

[Tables of Stats]

I was hoping that the PET charts would have been updated but they're still using data from last season... Oh well, that just means I have a new stat gathering project to get started on when I'm off work tonight.

 

[Diamonddog01]

As @AKL astutely pointed out 12 of Gaudette's points have come on the powerplay in 1:33 of PP TOI/GP, vs 1 for Kunin in 0:39 of PP TOI/GP. That accounts for the point differential. Kunin also plays short-handed 1:23 per game so he's third behind the other centres (Eriksson Ek and Koivu) in that regard. Still decent results for such a young player though.

 

[Tables of Stats]

TinyURL.com - shorten that long URL into a tiny URL

This suggests that Gaudette's offense is enough to overcome Kunin's defensive strengths.

EDIT: Also, just showing that Kunin plays on the PK isn't enough to show that he's good at it. Comparing him to Sutter you can see the difference:

TinyURL.com - shorten that long URL into a tiny URL

Even compared to Beagle it's not good for Kunin:

TinyURL.com - shorten that long URL into a tiny URL

EDIT 2: I hate what HFB does to links...

 

[4Twenty]

what are the 5 on 5 numbers?

 

[M2Beezy]

what are the 5 on 5 numbers?

Pretty good

 

[NUhockey]

TinyURL.com - shorten that long URL into a tiny URL

This suggests that Gaudette's offense is enough to overcome Kunin's defensive strengths.

EDIT: Also, just showing that Kunin plays on the PK isn't enough to show that he's good at it. Comparing him to Sutter you can see the difference:

TinyURL.com - shorten that long URL into a tiny URL

Even compared to Beagle it's not good for Kunin:

TinyURL.com - shorten that long URL into a tiny URL

EDIT 2: I hate what HFB does to links...

Kunin's numbers seem decent though overall, right?

Also side note LOL @ Beagle, that's disgusting.

 

[Tables of Stats]

Kunin's numbers seem decent though overall, right?

Also side note LOL @ Beagle, that's disgusting.

His Skatr score is still 16 points lower than Gaudette's and I suspect that's because Kunin doesn't generate primary assists and his PK abilities are non-existent in spite of him being sent out to kill penalties on a regular basis. His Rel Teammates stats are also worse than Gaudette's across the board.