Player Discussion Revisiting the Kunin/Greenway/Donato vs. Gaudette Debate

[Tables of Stats]

At the TDL last season, some of our posters brought up four examples of players papered down to the AHL as being as good if not better than our own Adam Gaudette who wasn't papered down. Those players are Luke Kunin, Ryan Donato, Jordan Greenway, and Warren Foegele at the time I argued that I'd take Gaudette over those players. Now, roughly a quarter of the way through this season, let's look at each player and see where they stand.

Player​	GP​	G​	A​	P​	P/GP​	G/GP​	P/60​	G/60​	TOI/GP​	TOI​
A. Gaudette​	11​	4​	4​	8​	0.73​	0.36​	3.62​	1.81​	12:05​	132:52​
L. Kunin​	19​	4​	3​	7​	0.37​	0.21​	1.36​	0.78​	16:15​	308:43​
R. Donato​	18​	1​	2​	3​	0.17​	0.06​	0.99​	0.33​	10:03​	180:56​
J. Greenway​	18​	1​	6​	7​	0.39​	0.06​	1.67​	0.24​	13:55​	250:37​
W. Foegele​	20​	3​	5​	8​	0.40​	0.15​	1.94​	0.73​	12:33​	247:40​

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Looking at the stats, would you make a 1-for-1 trade giving away Gaudette for any of these players?

Now, I know Gaudette has been hot since getting called back up from Utica but I called what Donato did at the end of last season a hot streak as well and people attacked me for it. Well look at Donato and the trade rumours surrounding him now. You can also argue that the Canucks have played better than the Wild this season. I made that argument when comparing Gaudette to these four players last year and people were having none of it.

The one caveat is that there’s a lot of hockey left to play this season and that anybody could get hot or go ice cold. That’s 100% fair, and I’ll revisit this at the half-way, three-quarter, and end of season marks and see where things stand at each of those points. For now, we can only look at the games each player has had a chance to play and one is clearly standing above the rest.

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[Addison Rae]

What

 

[Tables of Stats]

What

There was a contingent of people in the Comet's thread last season making a big deal about some players being papered down while Gaudette wasn't. I argued that Gaudette was the best player of the five and people didn't like it. A quarter of the way through the season it seemed like time to revisit the topic and see if any of those posters will still try to argue that Gaudette is worse than the other 4.

 

[MS]

The fact that the Canucks have done everything possible to screw up Gaudette’s development doesn’t mean he wasn’t an excellent prospect who could overcome that BS.

 

[Tables of Stats]

The fact that the Canucks have done everything possible to screw up Gaudette’s development doesn’t mean he wasn’t an excellent prospect who could overcome that BS.

I disagree that they screwed up his development. I bet if you were to ask him he'd say that the NHL time he got last season is what helped him excel this season. He's not a Virtanen type who's coming into the NHL at 18, he was 22 last season coming off of an excellent college season. I think the call to play him in the NHL to let him struggle and learn in limited minutes, is what helped him to have the season he's having now.

 

[RobertKron]

Actually, you said that none of those players were even close to Gaudette, which is what people took issue with - as has been explained to you multiple times.

 

[Canucks1096]

The Adam Gaudette love might be getting out of hand soon. This kind of reminds me of Virtanen hot start last year when he was scoring a lot at the start of the season mainly due to puck luck. 50/50 said it wasn't sustainable, and it wasn't

Two bad passes he made in the Ducks and Sharks game went off a skate and he got points because of that, first home game he gets backchecked off the puck and manage to get a point from that as well.

If we break down his points.

5 came on the pp
3 came on 5 on 5, two went off of a skate and one last min of a game when the Canucks were losing 4-1 and the game was decided already.

Two main reasons Gaudette pace is not sustainable, he will not continue to get all the puck luck and also he is on pace to get 35 ppp this year, the 2nd unit won't have anywhere close 35 ppg. That won't happen, the 2nd pp unit for most teams do not score much. I wouldn't surprise if the 2nd unit pp ends up scoring another 5 to 10 ppg for the rest of the season

Gaudette still struggle 5 on 5 offensively. One of his esp came on a delay 6 on 5 penalty as well

 

[NoShowWilly]

I don't know about this conversation but basically every year I've taken issue with this organization not papering players to assist our ahl team in a potential playoff run.

 

[4Twenty]

Gaudette being on a heater in sheltered minutes getting some PP points is nice but it doesn’t excuse not papering him down.

 

[dombrova22]

The Adam Gaudette love might be getting out of hand soon. This kind of reminds me of Virtanen hot start last year when he was scoring a lot at the start of the season mainly due to puck luck. 50/50 said it wasn't sustainable, and it wasn't

Two bad passes he made in the Ducks and Sharks game went off a skate and he got points because of that, first home game he gets backchecked off the puck and manage to get a point from that as well.

If we break down his points.

5 came on the pp
3 came on 5 on 5, two went off of a skate and one last min of a game when the Canucks were losing 4-1 and the game was decided already.

Two main reasons Gaudette pace is not sustainable, he will not continue to get all the puck luck and also he is on pace to get 35 ppp this year, the 2nd unit won't have anywhere close 35 ppg. That won't happen, the 2nd pp unit for most teams do not score much. I wouldn't surprise if the 2nd unit pp ends up scoring another 5 to 10 ppg for the rest of the season

Gaudette still struggle 5 on 5 offensively. One of his esp came on a delay 6 on 5 penalty as well

Give me a break, you act as if the kid hasn't been an absolute f***ing stud. He has been TEARING it up ever since pre-season. If it was going to end, it would have by now.

 

[Canucks1096]

Give me a break, you act as if the kid hasn't been an absolute ****ing stud. He has been TEARING it up ever since pre-season. If it was going to end, it would have by now.

If you have a good preseason and if you play well during the first 11 games, that means you won't fade away later on in the season and keep the same points pace? Do you have any facts to back this up or are you generalizing?

Jared Macann had 5 G in his first 9 game a few years ago. People were talking 20 to 25 G and he ended the season with 9.

Virtanen had 8 G in his first 20 games last year, people were talking about 20 to 25 goals and he ended the season with 15.

Gaudette will be in the middle 6 with the last 30 seconds of the pp. He is on pace for 51 P in 71 games right now. Once again he has 5 pp this year and he has 1 esp that didnt go off a skate. The pp played a big factor in his hot start. There is absolutely no way that he can keep close to 0.5 ppg on the pp. That is 35 ppp, no player on the 1st unit will even get that many ppp.

This thread is the Virtanen thread last year. People disagreeing for the sake disagreeing because they love Virtanen/Gaudette

 

[Disappointed EP40]

There was a contingent of people in the Comet's thread last season making a big deal about some players being papered down while Gaudette wasn't. I argued that Gaudette was the best player of the five and people didn't like it. A quarter of the way through the season it seemed like time to revisit the topic and see if any of those posters will still try to argue that Gaudette is worse than the other 4.

so a big, "I told you so", thread?

Where's the og thread?

 

[Tables of Stats]

Actually, you said that none of those players were even close to Gaudette, which is what people took issue with - as has been explained to you multiple times.

Would you trade any of those four players for Gaudette one-for-one right now?

-----

The Adam Gaudette love might be getting out of hand soon. This kind of reminds me of Virtanen hot start last year when he was scoring a lot at the start of the season mainly due to puck luck. 50/50 said it wasn't sustainable, and it wasn't

Two bad passes he made in the Ducks and Sharks game went off a skate and he got points because of that, first home game he gets backchecked off the puck and manage to get a point from that as well.

If we break down his points.

5 came on the pp
3 came on 5 on 5, two went off of a skate and one last min of a game when the Canucks were losing 4-1 and the game was decided already.

Two main reasons Gaudette pace is not sustainable, he will not continue to get all the puck luck and also he is on pace to get 35 ppp this year, the 2nd unit won't have anywhere close 35 ppg. That won't happen, the 2nd pp unit for most teams do not score much. I wouldn't surprise if the 2nd unit pp ends up scoring another 5 to 10 ppg for the rest of the season

Gaudette still struggle 5 on 5 offensively. One of his esp came on a delay 6 on 5 penalty as well

I'm well aware that his current pace is unsustainable, though if he keeps getting to play with Miller and trades off on PP1 with Horvat when one of them is slumping I think his numbers could be a surprise to some people. That said, he could fail to score a single point in his next 9 games and still be even with or better than where any of the other four are at right now and hot streak or not that says something about Gaudette as a player.

Given his hot start, my expectation is that Gaudette plays around 65 games total and scores 30+ points this season. That only requires him to score 22 points in his next 54 games which, if he keeps getting PP time, ought to be possible. Do you think that's a gross overestimate of Gaudette's ability? If not, do you see any of the four above him being able to match a 0.46 P/GP pace?

 

[Tables of Stats]

so a big, "I told you so", thread?

Where's the og thread?

The original debate is spread across the comets threads from last year. You can try to find it by searching my user name and the names of the five players involved but this site's search function can be finicky at best.

-----

I don't know about this conversation but basically every year I've taken issue with this organization not papering players to assist our ahl team in a potential playoff run.

Would two games of Gaudette have changed the Comet's fate? It was clear that the team didn't want to send him down at the end of last season, so the Comets would only have had him for whatever games they had left after the Canucks were eliminated. I don't think that would have mattered last season given the state of the team in Utica.

 

[Disappointed EP40]

He's improved. Would like to see him take another step.

 

[4Twenty]

What is the difference between Gaudette’s current hot streak vs Donato’s last year?

 

[Tables of Stats]

What is the difference between Gaudette’s current hot streak vs Donato’s last year?

Likely very little. Both points streaks were/are driven by PP production and a change in usage.

In Donato's case, and this is with a bit of hindsight, he has a history of running hot and cold. Look at his first 12 games in Boston versus his next 34, then look at his first 22 games with Minnesota versus his next 18. There are Donato trade rumors now and that could see him on his third team in as many seasons if it actually comes to pass.

 

[dombrova22]

If you have a good preseason and if you play well during the first 11 games, that means you won't fade away later on in the season and keep the same points pace? Do you have any facts to back this up or are you generalizing?

Jared Macann had 5 G in his first 9 game a few years ago. People were talking 20 to 25 G and he ended the season with 9.

Virtanen had 8 G in his first 20 games last year, people were talking about 20 to 25 goals and he ended the season with 15.

Gaudette will be in the middle 6 with the last 30 seconds of the pp. He is on pace for 51 P in 71 games right now. Once again he has 5 pp this year and he has 1 esp that didnt go off a skate. The pp played a big factor in his hot start. There is absolutely no way that he can keep close to 0.5 ppg on the pp. That is 35 ppp, no player on the 1st unit will even get that many ppp.

This thread is the Virtanen thread last year. People disagreeing for the sake disagreeing because they love Virtanen/Gaudette

Ill' revisit this comment at the end of the year when Gaudette proves you wrong

 

[RobertKron]

Would you trade any of those four players for Gaudette one-for-one right now?

That's irrelevant. Your initial argument was that the gap between those players and Gaudette was so wide that it was silly to compare them being papered down to the Canucks not doing so with Gaudette, which was both ridiculous and also irrelevant.

 

[Motte and Bailey]

Gaudette is a bona fide GOALSCORER. Has all the tools to be a 30+ goal scorer in the NHL. What an outstanding pickup by the scouting staff. He should be on the 1st unit power play and should be playing in the top 6 at ES.

 

[DonnyNucker]

The fact that the Canucks have done everything possible to screw up Gaudette’s development doesn’t mean he wasn’t an excellent prospect who could overcome that BS.

Totally. They didn’t let him practice with the team while he was in the press box and they gave him no opportunities while he was with Utica. I also heard they force him to use some of lindens old used skates. Those evil bastards messing with this poor kids career. They must have a vendetta

 

[Peen]

Next I'm going to hear that starting Horvat on the fourth line with Dorsett was the reason he scored 60 points last year.

 

[Canucks1096]

What is the difference between Gaudette’s current hot streak vs Donato’s last year?

There isn't really not much of a difference except Gaudette plays for the Canucks and Donato plays for the Bruins last year

 

[Tables of Stats]

Next I'm going to hear that starting Horvat on the fourth line with Dorsett was the reason he scored 60 points last year.

Were Kunin and Greenway also mishandled last season?

-----

There isn't really not much of a difference except Gaudette plays for the Canucks and Donato plays for the Bruins last year

Donato played for both the Bruins and the Wild last season. With the Bruins, he only scored 9 points in 34 games after being traded to the Wild and feed PP time he scored 16 points in 22 games. Just to make sure everybody is clear on what exactly Donato did last season.

 

[Canucks1096]

Ill' revisit this comment at the end of the year when Gaudette proves you wrong

Please put a reminder on a Calendar in a smartphone. I am not sure you realize how hard 50 plus points is? This year 5 on 5, he has one even strength goal and that was off of a skate . He is not proven and struggling to produce 5 on 5. He did have some time with Horvat and Miller as well. 0 even strength points when those 2 players were on the ice with him. 2nd unit pp had 4 ppg in the last 3 games. That's almost never happens. I am predicting right now that the 2nd unit pp unit will take another 20 games to get another 4 ppg.

See you in April 2020