Replay/Challenge Discussion: (or from another angle) Discussion: Challenge/Replay

[usiel]

This coaches challenge needs to go away...and I'm generally in support of those in pro sports...but this crap is broken. My idea if it was to tweak it. If any part of the goalie from the overhead cam is outside of the crease it makes goalie interference challenges a no go.

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[Capitals40]

This coaches challenge needs to go away...and I'm generally in support of those in pro sports...but this crap is broken. My idea if it was to tweak it. If any part of the goalie from the overhead cam is outside of the crease it makes goalie interference challenges a no go.

I remember the days if the goalie was out of the crease it was tough doo doo for the goalie

 

[usiel]

I remember the days if the goalie was out of the crease it was tough doo doo for the goalie

Me too. In my 25 years plus of pro hockey watching that overturned AO goal is a goal 10 times out of 10 by NHL refs.

 

[John Price]

Addressing the goal that was disallowed, it appeared that the Caps did interfere with the goalie, they spent like 5 minutes reviewing it and everyone at the game was pissed off and then when it was disallowed there was even more profanity and outrage. I was in the bathroom at Verizon listening to the radio broadcast after the goal was called back, John Walton was saying he could understand. I saw the goal live, I saw a billion replays of it, it appeared to me to be either way. I mean I wouldn't complain if it was disallowed, I could see the contact clearly before, I could see why they call it.

It doesn't matter anyway because the Caps won and they tied it up with a second to go. Everyone was still pissed about the refs though. They're always mad about the refs there. I just saw interference there, I could see why they call it back

 

[Brian23]

Addressing the goal that was disallowed, it appeared that the Caps did interfere with the goalie, they spent like 5 minutes reviewing it and everyone at the game was pissed off and then when it was disallowed there was even more profanity and outrage. I was in the bathroom at Verizon so John Walton was saying he could understand. I saw the goal live, I saw a billion replays of it, it appeared to me to be either way. I mean I wouldn't complain if it was disallowed, I could see the contact clearly before, I could see why they call it.

It doesn't matter anyway because the Caps won and they tied it up with a second to go. Everyone was still pissed about the refs though. They're always mad about the refs there. I just saw interference there, I could see why they call it back

I just whole heartedly disagree. Blue paint is Goalies land, I can live with it. Williams makes contact in the white, seconds before the shots off, and then is held/shoved into the front of the net (but no contact).

That's just a terrible call for goalie interference. At this point you just can't set up a screen at all. Won't be long till D's are just shoving guys into the Goalie or Goalies are charging out to get it on the challenge.

 

[Fallschirmyager]

I just whole heartedly disagree. Blue paint is Goalies land, I can live with it. Williams makes contact in the white, seconds before the shots off, and then is held/shoved into the front of the net (but no contact).

That's just a terrible call for goalie interference. At this point you just can't set up a screen at all. Won't be long till D's are just shoving guys into the Goalie or Goalies are charging out to get it on the challenge.

I have two issues with this type of review. The first is it looked to me as though the contact was outside of the blue paint and incidental. If that is the case you can't waive off the goal.

The second is that these reviews are counter productive because there is a wild variance in interpretation as to what is actually interference and what is incidental contact. If the refs can't be remotely consistent then they need to stop over turning on ice calls.

 

[Devil Dancer]

Everyone was still pissed about the refs though. They're always mad about the refs there. I just saw interference there, I could see why they call it back

I get it for the fans though. They saw an awesome goal from the franchise's best and most popular player ever waived off for a questionable reason, when this franchise has a history of getting ****ed in the playoffs on similar plays.

The fanbase might seem overly sensitive, but the team has clearly been screwed by officiating on multiple occasions, so I'm inclined to give them a pass.

 

[Xaroc]

FWIW, all these challenges aren't being done in Toronto. They are being made by the refs. Which makes it even worse because the refs are all over the place in their interpretations of the rules. So Toronto didn't waive that goal off it was the ref.

I just hate that in the playoffs I just know we are going to get a big goal waived off because one of our guys gets shoved into the goalie or some other BS.

 

[RandyHolt]

Yep Xarox.

How long until we see all incidental goalie contact called as a penalty? They should have called a penalty on Williams after the review if it was worthy of waving off a goal. If the goalie initiates, call it on them. The league wants more scoring, so that will generate the PPs needed.

I feel like our rinks are too small, and our goalies are too big, to completely avoid goalie contact.

It may get to the point that players and fans stop celebrating goals fearing it's highly likely to be overturned because 2 jerseys touched.

 

[Devil Dancer]

It may get to the point that players and fans stop celebrating goals fearing it's highly likely to be overturned because 2 jerseys touched.

I thought about that last night, and it really sucks. Goals aren't necessarily goals anymore. Instead of just being happy about it you have to hold your breath for a while while you wait for a challenge/call, just like in the NFL.

 

[Langway]

I thought about that last night, and it really sucks. Goals aren't necessarily goals anymore. Instead of just being happy about it you have to hold your breath for a while while you wait for a challenge/call, just like in the NFL.

...and all of this happening in a league that wants more goals.

This week's GM meetings will get the ball rolling on a more lenient interpretation of goaltender interference than what referees have taken it upon themselves to deem appropriate.

 

[g00n]

Viewing a play at full vs half speed requries shifting mentalities. We tend to overanalyze things at slower speeds and have less ability to relate to what the movements mean in real time, especially when judging intent or seeing the context of body movements that would otherwise be considered normal at full speed.

For example, when looking at a questionable hit in slow motion we may not see the flow of the play as well and the time elapsed from passing the puck to contact will feel a lot longer than it actually was. Slight bits of contact to the head will be magnified because you're looking for it and it may appear more solid or significant than it was. If you don't account for these things then your judgment is skewed.

How aware of this principle are these refs? I'm not saying last night's goal was good or bad, just noting that a lot of these calls could be affected by hyperanalysis. I'm starting to think challenges should not apply to anything other than where the puck is (over the line, offside, hitting the glass, etc). Judgment calls about player contact should be left for the league office to review AT LENGTH by those who are more trained in it...not on-ice refs with limited time and lots of pressure who also could be influenced by the setting.


edit: should we spin this off into a replay discussion thread?

 

[Calicaps]

...and all of this happening in a league that wants more goals.

This week's GM meetings will get the ball rolling on a more lenient interpretation of goaltender interference than what referees have taken it upon themselves to deem appropriate.

This. I watched that and thought how the pendulum needs to swing back from the over-protection of the goalies or we will continue to see scoring decline.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Wait until they increase the timeouts to one a period (speculation) ....everything will get challenged that's even marginally close.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

Wait until they increase the timeouts to one a period (speculation) ....everything will get challenged that's even marginally close.

The Coach's challenge was introduced as a consequence of us getting robbed on Ward's goal in game 5 vs the Rangers last spring.

So far this season, we got robbed twice because of it. I think Trotz also challenged a goal but failed.

 

[Calicaps]

Viewing a play at full vs half speed requries shifting mentalities. We tend to overanalyze things at slower speeds and have less ability to relate to what the movements mean in real time, especially when judging intent or seeing the context of body movements that would otherwise be considered normal at full speed.

For example, when looking at a questionable hit in slow motion we may not see the flow of the play as well and the time elapsed from passing the puck to contact will feel a lot longer than it actually was. Slight bits of contact to the head will be magnified because you're looking for it and it may appear more solid or significant than it was. If you don't account for these things then your judgment is skewed.

How aware of this principle are these refs? I'm not saying last night's goal was good or bad, just noting that a lot of these calls could be affected by hyperanalysis. I'm starting to think challenges should not apply to anything other than where the puck is (over the line, offside, hitting the glass, etc). Judgment calls about player contact should be left for the league office to review AT LENGTH by those who are more trained in it...not on-ice refs with limited time and lots of pressure who also could be influenced by the setting.


edit: should we spin this off into a replay discussion thread?

Great points. And maybe we are being a bit unfair to the refs. This is new for them as well.

Yes, let's make a new thread. I'm on my phone en route to the football game so can't right now but will later if you don't have time.

 

[g00n]

Great points. And maybe we are being a bit unfair to the refs. This is new for them as well.

Yes, let's make a new thread. I'm on my phone en route to the football game so can't right now but will later if you don't have time.

I got it.

 

[Fallschirmyager]

This. I watched that and thought how the pendulum needs to swing back from the over-protection of the goalies or we will continue to see scoring decline.

What's amusing is for a league that's so worried about the scoring decline that coaches and the media are discussing making the goals larger is allowing the refs to waive off goals for next to nothing.

 

[g00n]

What's amusing is for a league that's so worried about the scoring decline that coaches and the media are discussing making the goals larger is allowing the refs to waive off goals for next to nothing.

Two different issues, though. If you want to open the door to increased contact with the goaltender then you start putting them at risk again like we saw in the late 90s when they were dropping like flies. And if you're scared to wave off a goal due to contact then that's what you're doing since every team will catch on.

Tender equipment vs net size relates to the increase in speed and strength throughout the league and goalies seeking more protection, but the league trying to not let that gear make the net less accessible.

 

[Marshall]

Fine with the challenge (love it, actually), but it needs to go to Toronto, not the refs who muffed it to begin with. (And when did the NHL refs union get so powerful, anyway?)

 

[Fallschirmyager]

Two different issues, though. If you want to open the door to increased contact with the goaltender then you start putting them at risk again like we saw in the late 90s when they were dropping like flies. And if you're scared to wave off a goal due to contact then that's what you're doing since every team will catch on.

Tender equipment vs net size relates to the increase in speed and strength throughout the league and goalies seeking more protection, but the league trying to not let that gear make the net less accessible.

They are a different part of the same issue. If you're discussing making a significant change to the game like making the goals bigger then anything in game that is reducing scoring is counter productive. I'm not advocating open season on goalies. I want a clearer and more consistent definition of what warrants removing goals. The demonstrated standard so far is a joke.

 

[g00n]

They are a different part of the same issue. If you're discussing making a significant change to the game like making the goals bigger then anything in game that is reducing scoring is counter productive. I'm not advocating open season on goalies. I want a clearer and more consistent definition of what warrants removing goals. The demonstrated standard so far is a joke.

They have a standard. It's any contact in the crease that prevents the goalie from doing his job and making a save. How do you make it more specific and/or clearer than that?

Maybe I'm interpreting your comment wrong. Are you criticizing the league for shooting itself in the foot by waving off these goals in seeming contradiction to their scoring focus, or simply noting the irony of the situation?

 

[Calicaps]

Anybody have a gif of the play from last night?

 

[g00n]

anybody have a gif of the play from last night?

 

[Calicaps]

Gracias.

So as I said before, when Williams collided with Reimer, he (Williams) was not in the blue paint. He was prevented from backing away from the goalie and in fact pushed into the crease by the Leafs player, long after Williams ran into Reimer.