Red Wings Sign Drew Miller to One-Year Extension

[HIFE]

If hes signed as the 14th forward, then so be it. If hes signed as the 12th forward, we have better options.

Its nitpicking complaining about 4th line/scratched forwards but seriously, we need to get better across the board.

Just did some research and it said that a reasonable mid level 4th line forward should be able to produce 0.83 P/60. Miller is at 0.33. I know hes not meant to be relied on for his offensive gain but his defence isnt amazing, its okay for an aging slow no hitting 4th liner. The best you can say is he is a thinker and gets in the right position.

I find this signing so stale and weak. What a loyalty, Dan Cleary, country club signing if there ever was one. If Miller was waved 29 teams would pass even if he made $700,000. He's slow, doesn't hit, has no forecheck, can't shoot, doesn't create turnovers or chances. Oh wait but he's a veteran presence (like we don't have a glut of that already) and a PK "specialist"...yeah. For the record I am also completely sick of Glendening, I hate watching him play hockey. He's a *****. He also can't throw a bodycheck and is 0 threat. The fantasy cooked up by Babcock that he's some type of agitator is preposterous. What a soft, goofy 4th line we have.

I don't get how any player signed/re-signed is considered insignificant. Hey then send me 1/23rd of your incomes if it makes no difference. This is a further sign of the organization's blind staleness, an unwillingness to adapt proactively. Bob Marley sings the great lyric, "...when one door is closed another is open...". We need change just for the sake of change. Bring in some freshness, some hope of growth, if anything the entertainment of watching a new player if even for 8 minutes. I would love Miller as a friend but **** this is a business and the most elite hockey league in the world. Red Wings are slowly regressing every season it's time to get serious.

I can't believe Bert and Nosek aren't more capable on the 4th line. I'm sure they're hungrier. I hope one of them can grab the spot day 1. A 4th line should have an impact. With the talk of Martin it has to be stated again how intimidating he, Cizikas, and Clutterbuck were. These guys crush defenseman every dump in, not pretend to check and then chase around waving their sticks, wasting time until the top line can get out there. Our 4th line has been a joke and if you think it doesn't matter you're as asleep as Holland.

 

[Mijatovic]

Or Nestrasil, who quietly had a similarly productive (and injury hampered) year with Carolina as the he had after we dealt him there

I knew I would forget someone

 

[jaster]

Playing 13 minutes a night(10 minutes at EVS), scoring 2 points in 28 games, giving a massive 0.07 PPG and contributing 40 odd hits. His SH stats arent exactly stellar either.

Miller is one of the better PKers in the NHL, and multiple coaches have recognized that. If fans are arguing otherwise because of "stats," then they aren't using stats correctly (which is an all too common thing on message boards).

He was totally replacable by almost anyone.

That is very much dependent on what you want out of the spot he fills. Given his role as defined by the Red Wings, there wasn't a player in the system who could "totally" replace him. The Wings value him for his PK ability and his experience/leadership (two things that this board devalues to an extreme). Tomas Nosek, or whoever, doesn't offer the same package.

I would actually rather a young player in that spot because speed and determination can make up for Millers "veteran" experience.

That's your preference, which is fine. I think this board overvalues young players in general, and by a lot. To each their own

 

[Mijatovic]

According to the stats, Miller gave up more goals average per ice time on the PK than Abdelkader and Athanasiou. Only just better than Glendening.

Hardly PK superstar given we were firmly middle of the pack in PK%.

Maybe you just have no understanding what stats are supposed to represent? Its the only quantifiable way we have of measuring our players. If you wish to ignore that, who am I to argue with ignorance?

He just doesnt even pass the eye test. Slow, doesnt hit, doesnt score, blocks a few shots all for 12 minutes a night on the ice.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

Miller is one of the better PKers in the NHL, and multiple coaches have recognized that. If fans are arguing otherwise because of "stats," then they aren't using stats correctly (which is an all too common thing on message boards).




That is very much dependent on what you want out of the spot he fills. Given his role as defined by the Red Wings, there wasn't a player in the system who could "totally" replace him. The Wings value him for his PK ability and his experience/leadership (two things that this board devalues to an extreme). Tomas Nosek, or whoever, doesn't offer the same package.




That's your preference, which is fine. I think this board overvalues young players in general, and by a lot. To each their own

Yeah. Miller isn't exactly a "leader". Unless of course. Everyone is a leader in the red wings locker room

I bet nosek is a leader if he's up here for two years

 

[jaster]

According to the stats, Miller gave up more goals average per ice time on the PK than Abdelkader and Athanasiou. Only just better than Glendening.

Perfect example of stats being mis-used. In hockey, you can find stats that suggest preposterous conclusions, especially if you want to use stats that are stripped of context and/or depend on small sample sizes (like Athanasiou on the PK).

Who here actually thinks Abdelkader and Athanasiou are better PKers than Miller and Glendening?

Maybe you just have no understanding what stats are supposed to represent? Its the only quantifiable way we have of measuring our players. If you wish to ignore that, who am I to argue with ignorance?

Stats are only a useful quantifiable tool if they are applied correctly. On hockey message boards that is a rare thing. It's not that you are arguing with ignorance, it's that I'm dismissing stats that are not saying what people think they are saying. To utilize stats appropriately, they require some time and study, or an already existing basis of understanding. But on message boards, it's the norm for people to have a bias, dig up a stat that supports their already-decided upon conclusion, ignore problems like sample size and context, and then go "SEE LOOK A STAT, END OF STORY."

He just doesnt even pass the eye test. Slow, doesnt hit, doesnt score, blocks a few shots all for 12 minutes a night on the ice.

Again, this all depends on what you want out of your 4th-line. I'm not saying you're wrong for preferring a different makeup. I wouldn't want three Drew Millers on the 4th-line, but I do prefer one. I like balanced lines, which 9 times out of 10 means having 3 guys who bring different qualities. Within a 4th line, I'd like at least one guy with experience, and at least two guys with PK ability. The 3rd guy I'd like to be a hitter (2007-08 Dallas Drake is one of my all-time favorite 4th-liners), so I would like to see someone more physical than Tomas Jurco/Joakim Andersson skating with Miller and Glendening.

 

[jaster]

Yeah. Miller isn't exactly a "leader". Unless of course. Everyone is a leader in the red wings locker room

I bet nosek is a leader if he's up here for two years

The front office/coaches have recognized Miller as being one of the most meaningful leaders on the team. It's been mentioned numerous times during broadcasts the past couple seasons. It's even been in print a couple times recently.

"He's a good penalty killer, he's a good leader in the room. He doesn't wear a letter but he's well-respected by the younger players." - Ken Holland

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2016/06/red_wings_make_offers_to_darre.html

 

[SpookyTsuki]

The front office/coaches have recognized Miller as being one of the most meaningful leaders on the team. It's been mentioned numerous times during broadcasts the past couple seasons. It's even been in print a couple times recently.



http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2016/06/red_wings_make_offers_to_darre.html

Yeah. Cleary was a general in the locks room 2. Pretty sure nyquist has once been called a leader

 

[jaster]

Yeah. Cleary was a general in the locks room 2. Pretty sure nyquist has once been called a leader

Cleary was indeed a leader on the Wings for a healthy stretch. Is it surprising that guys who play further down the depth chart can provide leadership or something?

Nyquist has not been a leader to this point. The Wings put his dressing room stall next to Zetterberg's during his rookie season and there was then a belief that he was being groomed to someday wear a letter.

 

[njx9]

I hate that we've come to believe that our top players can't work the PK. Yzerman and Fedorov did it routinely in the regular season in the 90s. Zetterberg was a PK monster, and Datsyuk held down his fair share of minutes. I don't think it's a coincidence that our PK has slipped when we started relying more heabvily on our fourth liner/specialists to carry that play.

It's not entirely about the specific players who would or wouldn't take Miller's spot, though. It's about the mentality and the approach the Wings continue to take. This team is not something management should be afraid to tinker with and change, but signing Miller and continuing to court Helm points more towards the status quo than anything.

The team, with Fedorov and Yzerman, was completely different, and Fedorov was ten times the player anyone on our current roster is. Which is to say that, when you're not scoring in the bottom 10, league wide, I think you have more options to put your best players in different situations. When you can't score, I think it's a massive waste of ice time to put your best scorers on the PK. All that said, is the issue with our PK really on the forwards we were rolling out? I think there are probably bigger fish to fry, there.

As to the change argument, that's fine, I don't want the Wings to continue to ice the same team that's proven it can't get out of the first round, either. I think/hope moving Pav's contract is a big step in that direction (and isn't just a move to free up space for Eric Staal). But that said, I think clamoring for change, *solely* for the sake of change, is silly. If there was a better guy out there for the same price, then that's a legit argument. If Miller ends up in the veteran leadership role in GR, then I think the complaints about this signing are really silly.

MOD

 

[SpookyTsuki]

The team, with Fedorov and Yzerman, was completely different, and Fedorov was ten times the player anyone on our current roster is. Which is to say that, when you're not scoring in the bottom 10, league wide, I think you have more options to put your best players in different situations. When you can't score, I think it's a massive waste of ice time to put your best scorers on the PK. All that said, is the issue with our PK really on the forwards we were rolling out? I think there are probably bigger fish to fry, there.

As to the change argument, that's fine, I don't want the Wings to continue to ice the same team that's proven it can't get out of the first round, either. I think/hope moving Pav's contract is a big step in that direction (and isn't just a move to free up space for Eric Staal). But that said, I think clamoring for change, *solely* for the sake of change, is silly. If there was a better guy out there for the same price, then that's a legit argument. If Miller ends up in the veteran leadership role in GR, then I think the complaints about this signing are really silly.


MOD

Yeah. Let's not use cleary as an example. He's way worse then Miller but get signed because he's good in the lockeroom. Let's completely ignore it.

If you get rid of all the bad signings. Holland is a god

 

[njx9]

Yeah. Let's not use cleary as an example. He's way worse then Miller but get signed because he's good in the lockeroom. Let's completely ignore it.

What specific relevance does Cleary have, in this situation, beyond being a dirty word for Wings fans? He was played in a completely different role than Miller, he actively kept better players pushed further down or out of the lineup entirely, and he was brought back for an additional THREE seasons. None of those things are even slightly the same as what's going on now.

Further, you were actively arguing that Miller wasn't a leader. Are you now, against all logic, common sense and reports from the actual team who are in the actual locker room, arguing that Cleary wasn't highly respected as a leader in the locker room and that that's almost entirely why he was in GR last year?

MOD

 

[Frk It]

We are chasing Stamkos, Okposo, and several other big free agents.

Who cares about some guy we re-signed for 1 million for 1 year? Can't like 95% of his contract be buried, if need be?

What would we save swapping a kid for him, 250K?

I don't even like Miller, but I think we have bigger fish to fry right now.

 

[Winger98]

Perfect example of stats being mis-used. In hockey, you can find stats that suggest preposterous conclusions, especially if you want to use stats that are stripped of context and/or depend on small sample sizes (like Athanasiou on the PK).

Who here actually thinks Abdelkader and Athanasiou are better PKers than Miller and Glendening?

Who thinks it will make a drastic difference to the PK to have Abdelkader, Athanasiou, or Larkin out there instead of Miller? (alright, I do think Larkin would definitely have a larger positive effect on the PK over the course of the whole season)

We have ~5 seasons of stats that say we've been weak on the PK, and Miller has been a constant of that unit. At this point, he's either a difference maker on a god-awful unit, or he's not a difference maker. I lean toward the latter, and would have rather seen someone else brought in to the fourth line from outside the org, or just used that spot to shield a prospect from waivers this fall.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

What specific relevance does Cleary have, in this situation, beyond being a dirty word for Wings fans? He was played in a completely different role than Miller, he actively kept better players pushed further down or out of the lineup entirely, and he was brought back for an additional THREE seasons. None of those things are even slightly the same as what's going on now.

Further, you were actively arguing that Miller wasn't a leader. Are you now, against all logic, common sense and reports from the actual team who are in the actual locker room, arguing that Cleary wasn't highly respected as a leader in the locker room and that that's almost entirely why he was in GR last year?


MOD

I don't see why we need to keep signing replaceable guys. Pk is entirely fine without him. And you can give nosek a chance.

I don't even really care about the signing that much. But it seems pretty close to home for you

 

[njx9]

I don't see why we need to keep signing replaceable guys. Pk is entirely fine without him. And you can give nosek a chance.

I don't even really care about the signing that much. But it seems pretty close to home for you

It's close to home because I disagree with you? Or because I think the reasons people have given are weak? Or because I think the team has infinitely more pressing concerns than a $1m, bury-able contract for its 12-14th forward?

I think the leadership quality, in a player who can be buried in GR, is hardly a useless trait. I think the endless complaining about wanting change solely and completely for the sake of change is silly, and it's demonstrated really clearly in the fact that *this* contract has, somehow, generated 6 pages of thread. This isn't bringing back Cleary for 3 more years. This isn't signing Abbie to a lifetime contract. This is a one year deal, for a veteran player, who should be getting ~8 minutes a night, on the 4th line and PK. It's not like he's holding back a star player, the entire argument is that he's holding back "some other player" (who is most likely a worse player) and that fans, in their vast discontent with this team, think every player should be replaced by "some other player". I think that's naive, in general, aside from the cases where there's already universal agreement (Ericsson, Howard).

 

[Fugu]

It's close to home because I disagree with you? Or because I think the reasons people have given are weak? Or because I think the team has infinitely more pressing concerns than a $1m, bury-able contract for its 12-14th forward?

I think the leadership quality, in a player who can be buried in GR, is hardly a useless trait. I think the endless complaining about wanting change solely and completely for the sake of change is silly, and it's demonstrated really clearly in the fact that *this* contract has, somehow, generated 6 pages of thread. This isn't bringing back Cleary for 3 more years. This isn't signing Abbie to a lifetime contract. This is a one year deal, for a veteran player, who should be getting ~8 minutes a night, on the 4th line and PK. It's not like he's holding back a star player, the entire argument is that he's holding back "some other player" (who is most likely a worse player) and that fans, in their vast discontent with this team, think every player should be replaced by "some other player". I think that's naive, in general, aside from the cases where there's already universal agreement (Ericsson, Howard).

I would agree with you if we didn't have a wasteland of similar contracts for old, grinder types, though admittedly Miller is on the young side of that group. And on the flipside, seven contracts that really have little to show for all the effort put into crafting them. *putting aside Dats and Z, I suppose*

People want change because the team has become stagnant, uninspiring and is clearly a first round exit. Holland should have asked himself why no one wants to sign here, and why even our best player tried to get out of Dodge prior to this past season.

 

[Winger98]

The team, with Fedorov and Yzerman, was completely different, and Fedorov was ten times the player anyone on our current roster is. Which is to say that, when you're not scoring in the bottom 10, league wide, I think you have more options to put your best players in different situations. When you can't score, I think it's a massive waste of ice time to put your best scorers on the PK. All that said, is the issue with our PK really on the forwards we were rolling out? I think there are probably bigger fish to fry, there.

As to the change argument, that's fine, I don't want the Wings to continue to ice the same team that's proven it can't get out of the first round, either. I think/hope moving Pav's contract is a big step in that direction (and isn't just a move to free up space for Eric Staal). But that said, I think clamoring for change, *solely* for the sake of change, is silly. If there was a better guy out there for the same price, then that's a legit argument. If Miller ends up in the veteran leadership role in GR, then I think the complaints about this signing are really silly.

MOD

I think it depends how much you can swing that PK percentage. If we can push it to 85% or higher, I think it's worth it. If we can't, then I agree, just keep putting out the fourth liners and try to survive with it. At that point, our best hope is probably for Mrazek to stand on his head and carry the PK a bit.


Regardless, I'm with you in hoping the Datsyuk deal signals some meaningful change. I'm not really pushing for change for change sake, but at the same time you have to start somewhere. Miller would have been an easy place to start.

 

[jaster]

Who thinks it will make a drastic difference to the PK to have Abdelkader, Athanasiou, or Larkin out there instead of Miller? (alright, I do think Larkin would definitely have a larger positive effect on the PK over the course of the whole season)

Why would we replace Miller with one of those guys on the PK? That would be silly.

We have ~5 seasons of stats that say we've been weak on the PK, and Miller has been a constant of that unit. At this point, he's either a difference maker on a god-awful unit, or he's not a difference maker. I lean toward the latter, and would have rather seen someone else brought in to the fourth line from outside the org, or just used that spot to shield a prospect from waivers this fall.

Miller and Glendening are our two best PK forwards. If you want to discuss PK as a whole and how to improve it, these are a couple of the last guys worth discussing. If you want to upgrade our PK, then you start looking at how to improve upon the weakest links.

 

[obey86]

What exactly makes Miller a "great" PKer? And what makes him a better PKer than Abdelkader?

 

[jaster]

What exactly makes Miller a "great" PKer?

I presume you mean this as a facetious question, but I'll answer anyway. He's a great PKer because of his positioning and his reads. He disrupts the cycle more than most, by both closing down lanes or breaking up passes. He doesn't get needlessly sucked out of the box but instead exhibits patience.

He's basically the opposite of Darren Helm, who is one of the worst PKers I've ever seen regularly deployed by Detroit. I know they like him because of his speed, but speed on the PK is only a luxury, and if every time you are out there you are allowing multiple high % shots because you are constantly allowing yourself to be sucked out of position while failing to force a turnover, your speed is a luxury the team can ill afford.

 

[njx9]

I think it depends how much you can swing that PK percentage. If we can push it to 85% or higher, I think it's worth it. If we can't, then I agree, just keep putting out the fourth liners and try to survive with it. At that point, our best hope is probably for Mrazek to stand on his head and carry the PK a bit.


Regardless, I'm with you in hoping the Datsyuk deal signals some meaningful change. I'm not really pushing for change for change sake, but at the same time you have to start somewhere. Miller would have been an easy place to start.

I think Miller would've been an easy place to start, but I think he'd be a largely meaningless place to start. Sort of like letting Kindl go, though at least there, there's an argument that it might give Ouellet a crack. I hope, Holland's comment notwithstanding, that Helm is the easy, and effective place to start, followed by Quincey.

As for the PK, I can agree to that, and maybe with Larkin (and sort of AA) having a year under his belt, he'll be more ready to really contribute there. I think the problems with the PK seemed to stem more from defensive positioning than from forward play, but maybe having better forwards, or at least more mobile forwards, would make a bigger difference than I'm giving it credit for.

What exactly makes Miller a "great" PKer? And what makes him a better PKer than Abdelkader?

I don't know about better PKer, but what I like about Miller on our side of the ice was his willingness to dive in front of pucks. Two years ago I thought he did a great job of putting his body in the way and making Jimmy's job a lot easier. No one else on the team is willing to play that role (and really, whatever you think of Abbie, I'd rather our first line or "scoring" forwards weren't risking injury playing that role).

I would agree with you if we didn't have a wasteland of similar contracts for old, grinder types, though admittedly Miller is on the young side of that group. And on the flipside, seven contracts that really have little to show for all the effort put into crafting them. *putting aside Dats and Z, I suppose*

People want change because the team has become stagnant, uninspiring and is clearly a first round exit. Holland should have asked himself why no one wants to sign here, and why even our best player tried to get out of Dodge prior to this past season.

I totally agree that we have a lot of crap contracts, but it's hard for me to agree that the place to stop giving those is with a guy who just got a short term, easily negated contract. I don't really want to complain about E or Franzen in the same thread I already complained about others going off topic, but I think looking at Miller's contract is sort of tiny minnows compared to some really big fish elsewhere in the pond, right now. It just feels like a petty complaint. I dunno. I'd rather expend the energy hoping Helm gets an offer Holland won't match, since I think that would be a way more meaningful change, and would present guys like AA with actual opportunity.

edit: I should add that yes, I know someone can have multiple concerns re: Helm and Miller. I just think that more undue focus is put on the Miller signing for some reason.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

I think Miller would've been an easy place to start, but I think he'd be a largely meaningless place to start. Sort of like letting Kindl go, though at least there, there's an argument that it might give Ouellet a crack. I hope, Holland's comment notwithstanding, that Helm is the easy, and effective place to start, followed by Quincey.

As for the PK, I can agree to that, and maybe with Larkin (and sort of AA) having a year under his belt, he'll be more ready to really contribute there. I think the problems with the PK seemed to stem more from defensive positioning than from forward play, but maybe having better forwards, or at least more mobile forwards, would make a bigger difference than I'm giving it credit for.



I don't know about better PKer, but what I like about Miller on our side of the ice was his willingness to dive in front of pucks. Two years ago I thought he did a great job of putting his body in the way and making Jimmy's job a lot easier. No one else on the team is willing to play that role (and really, whatever you think of Abbie, I'd rather our first line or "scoring" forwards weren't risking injury playing that role).


edit: I should add that yes, I know someone can have multiple concerns re: Helm and Miller. I just think that more undue focus is put on the Miller signing for some reason.

The sooner abdelkader is counted as a "scoring forward" the better. He's fine on the third line

 

[19 for president]

I like Drew on the PK because he is willing to shot block, and he is really the only guy on this team that has been willing/ allowed to do that since Drake/Malts.

Having AA and Larkin on the PK this year, should really help keep other teams honest on their back end. The Wings used to be one of the best pk scoring teams in the league, but ever since Dats/Z left that role, we haven't been a threat at all. Having a guy like Drew there to cover up for their pressuring is a good thing.

 

[Fugu]

What exactly makes Miller a "great" PKer? And what makes him a better PKer than Abdelkader?

Abdelkader takes too many penalties to be useful on the PK. He seems to still make some bad decisions. [Edit: 7th in the NHL overall]

Miller is a good PK'er. Decent forward, who's mostly reliable. The question I cannot answer is if he's really the best that we can do. I like him, but I do feel like these are the dime per dozen type players and well, you can pick one up after the sizzle of the big signings and what not.

I also get that he can be relegated, though that doesn't seem to be an issue now that there really aren't many top tier guys that Holland would target. It may just be one of those growing pains years.