Red Wings Russian drafting - Time for a change ?

[Henkka]

I think this discussion needs an own thread.

That past history is so telling.

Watch Yzerman and Co go down their own path by drafting a Russian kid with #8 then package their 2 second round pick for a late 1st and then draft another Russian.

Maybe this would be nice idea on these days. We haven't drafted russians at all in the past. Maybe it's time?

Maybe Russia was seen as a wild west for a prospect, when you can't quarantee or handle his development at all. It went to crapshoot, with also severe risks.

The coutry is at war, but hockey is still running almost normally. They have lost foreing players to Europe, and two foreign KHL teams, Jokerit Helsinki (Finland) and Dynamo Riga (Latvia) have left the league.

Currently both Igor Larionov (Torpedo Nizhny Novgorod) and Sergei Fedorov (ZSKA Moscow) have coaching jobs at KHL. Could we have safe development places on those teams, to send our kids there, and have great connections for them? Those teams could work as "russian rögle and frölunda" to us.

***

Red Wings drafting history with Russians is interestin. Especially the change between 2001 to 2004.

If a draw I line on Igor Grigorenko's car accident, maybe that was the turning point of avoiding russians? We have had that unlucky history with car accidents, maybe that was the final nail on the coffin? They seem to stop trusting for russians totally, and maybe did see them as risky picks, because the life in Russia in dangerous for a prospect at certain age.

2019 Tyutyayev - 7th round
2014 Kadeykin - 7th round
2011 Marchenko - 7th round
2004 Stolyarov - 8th round
----------------------- (Igor Grigorenko car accident happaned May 16th 2003)
2001 Grigorenko - 2nd round
2001 Bykov - 8th round
2000 Semenov - 4th round
2000 Selyanov - 4th round
2000 Bumagin - 8th round
1999 Maximenko - 5th round
1999 Borodkin - 8th round
1998 Datsyuk - 6th round
1997 Butsayev - 2nd round
1996 Afanasiev - 9th round
1995 Kuznetsov - 1st round
1995 Ustyugov - 4th round
1995 Samokhvalov - 8th round
1994 Golybovsky - 1st round
1994 Agarkov - 6th round

Red Wings drafted russians quite normally on those days, before 2003 draft. Everything stopped after Grigorenko accident. He was looking so promising, would be perfect bullish power-forward to play with Pavel... we compared him a lot for Martin Lapointe. And then car accident...

The russian car accident history is poor. Fetisov lost his very talented Anatoly-brother in a car accident at 1985. Slava Kozlov had car accident, when he was said by Devellano to be the most talented Russian player he had ever seen. Redressed a bit since. Konstantinov tragedy happened at Detroit (now anyhow his fault, just crap luck), Fedorov crashed his Ferrari. Then Grigorenko has same kind of car accident at Russia as Kozlov.

Enough was enough ?

Only 7th-8th rounders have been used to russians, since Grigorenko accident. Like what... 4 lowest possible picks of 150 in last 19 NHL entry drafts.

Also some russians like Alex Cherepanov have died in weird conditions. I could suspect that the history with PEDs isn't very shiny there. so much things have become public since Sochi Olympics. Russia is kind of wild west where is a lots of old Sovjet era doctors selling this and that drug to young kids, promising a faster development etc.

Russian factor could be multiple things. This car accident hings, those weird cases losing life. It's just like young guys taking more stupid risks in their lives, not being safe. Players not willing to come over the pond. All together.

The final point is, could Larionov and Fedorov build "safe houses" for development, and we start drafting russian normally again? Build good environments there, and let the kids develop. They know how train right after all those years at Red Army team. But also, keep these kids away from risky stupid things.

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[NickH8]

I think it'll be a market inefficiency for a bit during the war. The risk is there for sure, but if you trust you can bring a guy over it could he a way to get steals. If a guy like Trikozov falls to the second round I'd want Detroit to be all over that.

 

[lilidk]

If prospect has NHL potential we shouldn't care

 

[Henkka]

One thing I don't understand in avoiding russians, is the salary cap. Because they usually are those cap steals, if they stay longer in their home country. Their ELCs will start later, and they won't get lucrative 2nd contract anyhow too soon. So usually they are nearer their prime, when they are still cap steals. Only exception is Kaprizov. Panarin (not drafted) was also huge cap steal for Hawks.

When we rise to contender again (in 3-4 years), we should have these guys drafted in the system. And I think that time starts now. 17-18 year olds are 21-22 in 4 years, when our current core and team is starting to reach the cap and success. Then we need these cheap but potential players.

Yzerman went heavily after russians at Tampa. Why haven't that happened yet at Detroit?

2010 was maybe too early, after just taking the duty.
2011 Namestnikov, Kucherov, Nesterov, year after they go all in with Russians
2012 Vasilevskiy, Gusev
2013 Gudlevskis (Latvian, but KHL)
etc. Sosunov, Lipanov, Volkov, Semygin, Shalakin, Groshev, Miftakhov, Pylenkov... kind of busts, but you can't hit with all.

Still the drafting at Tampa has been consistent, even when Yzerman left.

Do they have better scouts at Russia?

Was the develoment managed better?

 

[Hen Kolland]

I think Yzerman and Co. just aren't going to draft Russia for the shits and giggles of drafting Russians. He hasn't avoided picking them, but the Russian draft crop just haven't been super relevant in the areas we have been picking. So my answer is: do what you've been doing. That means take the best player as you see it when our time comes. If that player is Russian, don't second guess yourself.

Draft the player, not the nationality.

 

[Frk It]

I am really hoping we are targeting Duda or Grudinin in the middle rounds if they slide.

I also feel pretty strongly someone is going to get a steal drafting Yurov in this draft, and I'd be 0% mad if it was us.

 

[ThankGord]

Went with “as is” because I just want the best player available regardless of nationality.

Edit: I don’t think Yzerman has avoided Russians at all, just look at Tampa. They just haven’t been the BPA the few years he’s been running things.

 

[Frk It]

Only 7th-8th rounders have been used to russians, since Grigorenko accident. Like what... 4 lowest possible picks of 150 in last 19 NHL entry drafts.

We drafted a Russian in the first round of the 2015 draft. Playing in the CHL doesn't make him not Russian.

 

[FMichael]

To no fault of their own - Russian players haven't been involved in the tournaments and aren't getting the scouting eyes on them...Would not surprise me if many are overlooked courtesy of recent events and there could be some hidden gems.

 

[Henkka]

We drafted a Russian in the first round of the 2015 draft. Playing in the CHL doesn't make him not Russian.

Hah. Funny thing is forgot Svechnikov totally.

But this will make it even more clearer example.

Key is the development place. Where is the player going after draft, when you make the commitment and use a pick for him?

Svechnikov was coming to America, and located to Michigan, so they saw the safer place for development. It was a special russian not to avoid.

To no fault of their own - Russian players haven't been involved in the tournaments and aren't getting the scouting eyes on them...Would not surprise me if many are overlooked courtesy of recent events and there could be some hidden gems.

Only tournament they did miss was U18. Other prospect have missed U20 too, so there's no difference between U20 russians vs. other countries.

I don't think that will impact much on the 2022 draft, but year after there could be bigger impact. And this is gonna last for years.

 

[Leadzedder]

I’d be good with Miroshnichenko at 8.

 

[FMichael]

I’d be good with Miroshnichenko at 8.

Imagine fitting that last name on the back of a Red Wings jersey with the arched font...

 

[SantosHalper]

Red Wings Russia scout's
Igor Parashkin 1999-2002(2003?)
Yevgeni Yerfilov 2003-2013
Nikolai Vakurov 2011-present

So the Red Wings drafted more Russians before we had a actual scout over there. Grigorenko's car crash has to have somekind of impact since the change is quite dramatic. But i would also question the scout's, are their raports weak or are they "over scouting" the weaknesses.

Yzerman should poach the guy from Tampa. Yuri Yanchenkov, there a gap in his EP profile but i would believe he has worked for Tampa since 1999.

 

[HoweFan]

I’m not sure this is the year to draft Russians even though I would love to have DolZhenkov

 

[The Real Pastafarian]

I went with the middle option, yes, like we did before 2003, because

a) I have noticed a dearth of Russian draft picks by the DRW in recent years, and

b) I'm guessing that some of the Russians will drop this year because of fears about the war lasting longer than it actually will. Teams will worry that they might waste a pick on a guy they can't bring over when the player is ready. But I think those fears are unfounded, things will be back to normal within a year or so.

So I think if we're willing to draft some Russians without factoring in the idea that they carry more risk because of the war, we'll get a guy at our 40th overall that should have went in the 15 to 20 range.

I don't know of any Russian players I'd take at 8th overall though.

 

[Hoog]

Best player available on Steve's list at every pick. I don't think he cares where they're from.

 

[MBH]

One thing I don't understand in avoiding russians, is the salary cap. Because they usually are those cap steals, if they stay longer in their home country. Their ELCs will start later, and they won't get lucrative 2nd contract anyhow too soon. So usually they are nearer their prime, when they are still cap steals. Only exception is Kaprizov. Panarin (not drafted) was also huge cap steal for Hawks.

When we rise to contender again (in 3-4 years), we should have these guys drafted in the system. And I think that time starts now. 17-18 year olds are 21-22 in 4 years, when our current core and team is starting to reach the cap and success. Then we need these cheap but potential players.

Yzerman went heavily after russians at Tampa. Why haven't that happened yet at Detroit?

2010 was maybe too early, after just taking the duty.
2011 Namestnikov, Kucherov, Nesterov, year after they go all in with Russians
2012 Vasilevskiy, Gusev
2013 Gudlevskis (Latvian, but KHL)
etc. Sosunov, Lipanov, Volkov, Semygin, Shalakin, Groshev, Miftakhov, Pylenkov... kind of busts, but you can't hit with all.

Still the drafting at Tampa has been consistent, even when Yzerman left.

Do they have better scouts at Russia?

Was the develoment managed better?

Yzerman went hard after Russians because the market was soft for Russians. He got steals.
Washington, Tampa and St. Louis were all rewarded for drafting Russians while other teams avoided them.
None of those Russians were secrets -- Tarasenko, Kucherov, Kuznetsov, Orlov, Vasilevskiy, etc -- were secrets.
Stevie just gambled on talent.

This might be a year where people shy away from Russians and Stevie finds talent falling into his lap.

 

[Gniwder]

FYI, the Wings have a Russian scout, Nikolai Vakourov.

I'm pretty sure he's not being paid to twiddle his thumbs all day, if there's a Russian that BPA at a draft slot, I'm sure the team won't hesitate to pick the kid.

What I'd like to see is later round picks with more potential, regardless of country of origin.

 

[Frk It]

Going through The Black Book, this kid sounds interesting:

Yaroslav Yapparov - Stats, Contract, Salary & More

Eliteprospects.com hockey player profile of Yaroslav Yapparov, 2004-03-22 Mezhdurechensk, RUS Russia. Most recently in the undefined with Belye Medvedi Chelyabinsk. Complete player biography and stats.

www.eliteprospects.com

 

[SirloinUB]

I think the main reason we havent seen many Russians drafted here is just the luck of the draw. With his time in Tampa Yzerman showed a clear willingness to draft Russians.

 

[simonedvinsson]

If either of Miroshnichenko or Trikozov are still around when our second pick rolls up, I hope Yzerman calls their name(s). Dolzhenkov would be a fun add as well.

 

[Debrincat93]

always found it strange our lack of drafting in Russia. You would think with red wing ties to people like Fetisov, Larionov, Fedorov; you'd have some eyes and ears on some players you could talk to these guys about but it just never transpired for whatever reason.

always found it weird. i think yzerman busts onto the scene but itll be randomly and at the right time.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Only 46 Russian players played in NHL this season. That's less than half the amount of Swedish players.

Even Finland is producing more NHLers these days.

Gotta find market inefficiencies wherever they may be. Finding a Seider from a non-traditional hockey nation may be smarter than specifically targeting Russian players who unless they become superstars you will likely compete with KHL for their services.

 

[Gniwder]

Finding a Seider from a non-traditional hockey nation may be smarter than specifically targeting Russian players who unless they become superstars you will likely compete with KHL for their services.

KHL salary cap is only $12.8M, Panarin alone makes $11.6M ($12.5M actual salary). The KHL is no longer capable of outbidding NHL teams, though there are rumors that Shipachyov and others are getting paid bonuses under the table. Highest reported salary is Dietz at $1.33M.

The one factor though is the NHL ELC clause. Every player has to bite the bullet for 3 years (more if they slide). The way I see it though, the sooner you sign, the sooner you'll start to make real money when the ELC expires.

 

[Reddwit]

I don’t see us as avoiding Russians. Steve was happy to take Russians in Tampa during the KHL boom when everyone was worried about Russians not wanting to come to the NHL (lol). I think it’s just a matter of no Russian being their preferred target where they’re picking. All it takes is liking just one guy more than the Russian.