Pre-Game Talk: Red Wings @ Hurricanes: Let's get off on the right foot guys

[Frank Booth239*]

Enforcers don't prevent your team from getting abused. Only team toughness does that. You need tough guys who can also play hockey. Like Gleason. Or Scott Walker. Or Rod Brind'Amour (who fought something like twice in his career). Fighting isn't a magic pill that makes your team tough. You have to have guys who are willing to take a shove, and shove a guy right back. You have to have guys who can come out on the next shift and rub a guy into the boards with excessive force. And you have to have those guys up and down your lineup- one guy willing to do that who only gets 2 minutes a game and only picks on guys in his weight class doesn't scare anyone.

The Canes lack team toughness, which is why we get pushed around. It's not about having an enforcer, or not fighting enough.

I agree with that statement. I'd much rather have somebody like Brandon Prust than Westgarth. I'd like everyone on the roster not to be so soft. But for whatever reason, that doesn't seem to be in the cards. So I'll be happy with an enforcer and a soft team rather than just a soft team.

However- it certainly seemed to me like other teams took less liberties with Westgarth around last year than previous years. And for people to suggest that he sucks as an enforcer- he gave Colton Orr a beating last year. Granted, he doesn't enforce anywhere near as often as he should, but I think that's because of the coaching- but he is certainly a very good fighter.

He seems to be a better hockey player than a lot of his fellow goons. And it's not like he's taking a 4th line spot away from some awesome talent on the team. Which of the permanent party AHL'rs we keep around should dress instead of him?

Oh, yeah- also- it didn't seem like he was such an incredible burden to the Kings. (Drops the microphone)

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Oh, yeah- also- it didn't seem like he was such an incredible burden to the Kings. (Drops the microphone)

Hard to be a much of a burden when you only suit up for less than 1/3rd of the games.

 

[Frank Booth239*]

Hard to be a much of a burden when you only suit up for less than 1/3rd of the games.

Fair enough. Let him suit up for 1/3 of the games here then. Not against Detroit, or Tampa Bay, but against Boston and Toronto.

 

[Lazyking]

Hoping for a good start to the season. Not liking that lineup.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Fair enough. Let him suit up for 1/3 of the games here then. Not against Detroit, or Tampa Bay, but against Boston and Toronto.

I suspect that's how the Canes will use him this season. I'm not a fan of him because he is so ineffective as both a hockey player and as a presence to keep people from taking liberties, that it's a waste of a roster spot. His average TOI is 5:40 / game so he's not really having any impact.

Can he hold his own in a fight? I guess so. I don't hate fighting, just that most of his were staged events against another teams enforcer and achieved nothing.

 

[raynman]

As far as Westgarth and his fellow pugilists go I like to think of their fights as TOI and "skilled" guys TOI is quantified by minutes rather than a donnybrook. I've never dropped gloves on ice but I can't imagine you'd have a whole helluva lot left in the tank after a good scrap with a fellow heavyweight. Doesn't mean I condone the staged fights, just how I interpret them.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

As far as Westgarth and his fellow pugilists go I like to think of their fights as TOI and "skilled" guys TOI is quantified by minutes rather than a donnybrook. I've never dropped gloves on ice but I can't imagine you'd have a whole helluva lot left in the tank after a good scrap with a fellow heavyweight. Doesn't mean I condone the staged fights, just how I interpret them.

I don't disagree that they get tanked in a fight, but that's not why Westgarth is only playing 5min / night. He played 31 games and had 7 fights in those 31 games. His TOI/game was low because he is not very good at playing hockey.

 

[rocky7]

I'll just say this then drop it. there are some that want fighting to remain and those that want to see it removed. I'm of the later group and feel that it brings little/nothing to the game. it's merely an element of entertainment that some enjoy to watch. I do believe that it's on the way out.

I get a kick when I hear "the best hockey in the world" being bantered about. the best hockey (I'm thinking skill/talent wise) does not have guys like Westgarth, Scott, and a bunch more of their ilk stumbling around on the ice.

I really believe that the league needs to get serious about rules, suspensions and fines because from what I see out there these days, some player is going to be killed or very seriously injured. it is coming I think and unfortunately that's what it's going to take to promote change. that's really too bad.

It would be interesting to see a poll of season ticket holders regarding fighting. apart from fighting though, there are a whole host of extremely dangerous plays nightly that need to be looked at by the PA and league before it's too late. personally, I just want to watch and be entertained by good skillful hockey and have no interest in seeing a player being rolled off the ice on a stretcher when there is no need for it.

hockey is a tough game and that toughness doesn't have to be removed in order for the players to be relatively safe.

I watched Detroit play the other night and from what I could tell, their game is geared for goals not goonery.

 

[Ole Gil]

Muller had an interesting take. Said in Europe, with no fighting, players tended to use sticks in confrontations recklessly as a substitute. Said he was scared of losing an eye. That a fistfight gets people to drop their sticks hadn't occurred to me.

 

[Francis10]

Don't see us having much of a chance this game. Our 1st line can match up well, but the Wings depth is light years ahead of ours. Also their D is an actual NHL caliber defence. Still will be cheering us on though and hoping for the best.

 

[Frank Booth239*]

Don't see us having much of a chance this game. Our 1st line can match up well, but the Wings depth is light years ahead of ours. Also their D is an actual NHL caliber defence. Still will be cheering us on though and hoping for the best.

Maybe their backup goalie sucks?

I'm imagining that this year, like the last couple, every other game we'll see the opponents back up.

 

[What the Faulk]

If you combine the rest of HF's fan bases, I'm not sure if they would be as pessimistic as this group. There are far more homers on other boards, but I'm not sure what's more annoying.

 

[Buenos Necas]

There's enough parity in the league to make it kind of ridiculous to say "we don't have much of a chance" in any matchup, let alone the home opener. It's not like we're the Jags (sorry CI ) playing the Broncos.

 

[tarheelhockey]

If you combine the rest of HF's fan bases, I'm not sure if they would be as pessimistic as this group. There are far more homers on other boards, but I'm not sure what's more annoying.

I doubt too many other teams have suffered the kinds of letdowns we have the past two or three years. It's nobody's fault, but the team hasn't exactly ingrained optimism into us lately.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

Yeah I'm not sure why the pessimism. I have no guess whatsoever as to what will happen this season.

We could stay relatively healthy and be on the track we were on for the first 1/3rd of last season. Or, we could get eaten up by injuries and get another top 5 pick.

The top line can be once again elite, with the 2nd and 3rd lines actually following suit this time. Or the top line could come back to Earth with the 2nd and 3rd lines playing like they did last year.

Overall, I think the biggest correlation will be whether or not Faulk can take the next step to being a true top pairing dman. Injuries are GOING to happen to an extent, lines will get hot and cold, that'll happen. I think Faulk (and to an extent Murphy, if he can affect the powerplay like I'm hoping he can) is going to be a good barometer of the way this team's going. If he's putting up points and playing well in his own end, we're going to win more games than we lose. Otherwise, I'm not so sure.



BTW, did anyone see Emmerton's goal for Detroit last night? It was sweet.

 

[rocky7]

yeah who knows? really though, there is some very good talent on this team. solid goaltending and secondary scoring will make or break them I think. they should be able to compete with any team if these guys play up to their potential and Muller can match wits with the other guy.

watching the Wings so far, they are not a power house and being at home gives Muller the advantage for their first win of the season.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

Oh, yeah- also- it didn't seem like he was such an incredible burden to the Kings. (Drops the microphone)

I will now quote my friend, the LA Kings fan, from the day of the Westgarth acquisition:

"Dude, what the [bleep] is your front office smoking? Westgarth is the worst player I've ever seen in a Kings uniform, and I've been watching the Kings play [bleep] hockey for 30 years. He can't even fight worth a [bleep]."

So, let's just say that Westgarth was not the universally acclaimed player for the Kings that you suspect he was.

--hank

 

[Ole Gil]

I think a lot of the skepticism has to do with the talking heads pumping up some teams and running down others. You can't hear PITT!!! NYR!!! PHILLY!!!! 1000 times by 1000 different "experts" and not have it get into your head a bit.

But then you look at the rosters, or watch them play, and realize it doesn't make any sense.

Just like Ovechkin was done, or Semin is lazy...etc...Enough idiots saying the same thing over and over on tv, and eventually people think it might be true until it's shown to be false, and then they pretend like they never said it.

 

[Hyers]

Overall it will be a very good game to watch. Our defense is a bit suspect on paper but we will see. Either way it will be a close game and I see us winning 3-2.

Also I am excited to finally get to see Lindholm play and I am hoping on the 3rd line so we can actually see him for more than 5-7 minutes in the game.

 

[Mr America]

Muller had an interesting take. Said in Europe, with no fighting, players tended to use sticks in confrontations recklessly as a substitute. Said he was scared of losing an eye. That a fistfight gets people to drop their sticks hadn't occurred to me.

This is why I always assumed fighting was allowed, let's guys drop their sticks instead of swinging them like Luke and Darth?

And much of what people call the "staged" fighting is usually one guy trying to spark his team, arena etc. A good fight does seem to usually energize one and/or both teams.

I always viewed pure goons like Nuclear weapons. Nobody really wants to use them, but if others have them, we need them too.

 

[TheBigKahuna]

And much of what people call the "staged" fighting is usually one guy trying to spark his team, arena etc. A good fight does seem to usually energize one and/or both teams.

Maybe there can be other ways to stop the game, and energize the teams, like having staged dance offs, or puck flipping contests?

 

[cptjeff]

I think a lot of the skepticism has to do with the talking heads pumping up some teams and running down others. You can't hear PITT!!! NYR!!! PHILLY!!!! 1000 times by 1000 different "experts" and not have it get into your head a bit.

But then you look at the rosters, or watch them play, and realize it doesn't make any sense.

Just like Ovechkin was done, or Semin is lazy...etc...Enough idiots saying the same thing over and over on tv, and eventually people think it might be true until it's shown to be false, and then they pretend like they never said it.

I'm still laughing at how much Pittsburgh has been talked up. Last time I checked, Marc-Andre Headcase is still in net, and Vokoun, who really should have been in net most of last year and was in the playoffs, is out for half the season.

 

[What the Faulk]

I'm still laughing at how much Pittsburgh has been talked up. Last time I checked, Marc-Andre Headcase is still in net, and Vokoun, who really should have been in net most of last year and was in the playoffs, is out for half the season.

Well they have Crosby so they're obviously going to win every game 7-6, going undefeated.

At least that's what I assume everybody thinks.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

Or it might be that Fleury only really struggled in the playoffs. He was fine in the regular season.

Can't see any reason why that would change.

 

[AD Skinner]

Isn't kris letang out indefinitely as well? I do think Pittsburgh is a scary team but they aren't devoid of question marks. As has been said a ton around here, every team in this division has some uncertainties.