Post-Game Talk: Red Wings 4, Penguins 1 - Flip the Pens Over for the New Year; They're Done on This Side

[Dipsy Doodle]

One thing that would be nice to hear more from Sid, Sully, etc is a sense of accountability.

It seems like there's a lot of talk about how they're doing the right things and results will follow from the process, but not much in the way of hard looks in the mirror. There's a lot that the team isn't doing right, and it starts at the top. Crosby's barely on pace for 70 points at the 40 game mark, for f***'s sake. That's abysmal for him, and it's not for a lack of good wingers either. He has more to work with now than he's ever had before.

These two deserves all the accolades they got when we were riding high, so they certainly deserve honest assessment and accountability now that we're at a low point. If both had been up to their usual standards, we'd probably be in playoff position.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I certainly agree with the Hags example. My main point is that some of the chances labeled high danger, likely weren't all that dangerous, regardless of the shooter. Although, I suppose with a standard definition, those things tend to wash out over time.

You would have to break down who is getting these high danger chances to truly know, but just spitballing off what we know:

- I suspect it's not Crosby for sure as he's hardly shooting anymore.

- Sheahan and Hagelin are on epic runs for goal scoring ineptitude during their careers, so them blowing beauty chances is more par for the course than bad luck at this point.

- Rowney, Reaves and Kuhn are not skilled fwds that you can even hope will turn their PDO around.

Basically, if they want to end their "bad luck" you probably need Crosby to start shooting way more than he is now, at least 3-4 shots a game, then find a way to replace Rowney, Kuhn and Hags with more skilled players that can actually finish.

 

[chethejet]

Pens have to sell tickets and winning enables that. But GMJR and the brass understand the ebbs and flows of sports and I just don't think they will go the all in Shero route that never amounted to anything but loss of draft picks and over paying for has beens. Yes a third line center is a must as well as a upgrade of size on the wings. I just don't think Letang will be moved as easily as some think. Mario believes the core can win a cup.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Kind of hard to spout off about accountability when 80 percent of the team is making dumb mistakes and not showing requisite heart. Including core star players. If he followed through on the threat he couldn't ice a team.

And that is the problem. It is not one or two players but the bulk of the team. Which is why a trade or two likely will not make a difference.

 

[ColePens]

Accountability is a tough word to throw around. They aren't making excuses for what they are doing. The players know it. They can't do it. They physically and mentally cannot do it. That happens in life and hockey. I don't feel like accountability is an issue like the DB years. Far from that.

 

[SHOOTANDSCORE]

Accountability is a tough word to throw around. They aren't making excuses for what they are doing. The players know it. They can't do it. They physically and mentally cannot do it. That happens in life and hockey. I don't feel like accountability is an issue like the DB years. Far from that.

The thing is, if that really is true, then it is time to start thinking about selling at the deadline. Nothing short of massive turnover by JR is going to fix that type of exhaustion. Certainly not enough to get back to the finals.

It'd be a damn shame if that's the case but we're still lucky as hell to have experienced the last 2 years.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Accountability is a tough word to throw around. They aren't making excuses for what they are doing. The players know it. They can't do it. They physically and mentally cannot do it. That happens in life and hockey. I don't feel like accountability is an issue like the DB years. Far from that.

Except we have players who have been here for the whole ride like Kessel, Malkin, and Horny who are doing it. How are they able but Crosby and Letang aren't? Can they not be better than they've been?

Yes, JR and Sully need to give them better support, but some of our stars underperforming is a big part of why we are where we are, and I think they're capable of more.

 

[Gurglesons]

You keep pushing that the bottom 6 is the reason we are not in a playoff spot. It's sure as hell isn't good, but your stubbornness on ignoring every other issue is fascinating.

So you disagree about the bottom six?

 

[ColePens]

So you disagree about the bottom six?

Like 450 other members have posted to you - it's not in my top issues on the team. Is it Cup worthy? Nope. Is it the mega issue with this team? Nope.

But you will ignore that.

 

[ColePens]

Except we have players who have been here for the whole ride like Kessel, Malkin, and Horny who are doing it. How are they able but Crosby and Letang aren't? Can they not be better than they've been?

Yes, JR and Sully need to give them better support, but some of our stars underperforming is a big part of why we are where we are, and I think they're capable of more.

I think the tweets from Ottawa (a user posted yesterday) are fitting for the Pens. Paraphrasing - when players watch the leaders cheat up the ice or cheat defensively, it's not hard to do that as well.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I think the tweets from Ottawa (a user posted yesterday) are fitting for the Pens. Paraphrasing - when players watch the leaders cheat up the ice or cheat defensively, it's not hard to do that as well.

Absolutely. But doesn't that fall to guys like Sid and Letang, tired or not?

 

[ColePens]

Absolutely. But doesn't that fall to guys like Sid and Letang, tired or not?

Well you 100% know my answer. I think Sid/Letang are the two biggest issues by far this season. We all knew we needed bottom 6 depth to be Cup contenders, but being a bottom 5 team is on the leadership.

 

[Gurglesons]

Like 450 other members have posted to you - it's not in my top issues on the team. Is it Cup worthy? Nope. Is it the mega issue with this team? Nope.

But you will ignore that.

I meant do you think it is the second worst bottom six in the Crosby and Malkin era.

I guess there is an argument for third as 2006-07 was pretty terrible.

 

[Nakawick]

I think our bottom 6 and lack of forward depth, particularly centers, is absolutely our main issue. It doesn't help that Sid isn't in god mode, and that it gets taken for granted. So help him the team by having an NHL caliber bottom 6.

 

[ColePens]

I think our bottom 6 and lack of forward depth, particularly centers, is absolutely our main issue. It doesn't help that Sid isn't in god mode, and that it gets taken for granted. So help him the team by having an NHL caliber bottom 6.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I go back to my argument: Add Bones/Cullen and we are not in the clear. And technically our realistic shot was at re-signing Bones and acquiring Sheahan. In that scenario, I don't see a big difference in our overall record. 1-2 games? Max? Maybe? So if you put a realistic twist on it and say Bones re-signed, loss of one more defender because we needed the money for Bones, and bring in Sheahan. Now... add Wilson/Archi, too. I would have much rather preferred that and we had a chance to run that, but chose differently.

My issues:

1) Lack of effort/focus/discipline/etc: Been discussed at extensive lengths. If you need me to go into this, I will. I can also show examples for days.

2) Sid/Letang individual play: Sid has every excuse and it sucks. Letang is coming from a difficult injury. We needed tehse 2 to keep us in the playoff hunt for JR to have time to get the guys we need to be Cup contenders.

3) Mental/physical exhaustion: Been discussed at extensive lengths.

4) Bottom 6: Here is where I put bottom 6. We all agreed the bottom 6 is holding us back from being a Cup contender, but it is not the reason why we have a 22% chance of even getting in the playoffs. That's for damn sure.

5) Goaltending: Although it feels goaltending is bad, the amount of danger zone shots given up pretty much explain this.

 

[Shaffer]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I go back to my argument: Add Bones/Cullen and we are not in the clear. And technically our realistic shot was at re-signing Bones and acquiring Sheahan. In that scenario, I don't see a big difference in our overall record. 1-2 games? Max? Maybe? So if you put a realistic twist on it and say Bones re-signed, loss of one more defender because we needed the money for Bones, and bring in Sheahan. Now... add Wilson/Archi, too. I would have much rather preferred that and we had a chance to run that, but chose differently.

My issues:

1) Lack of effort/focus/discipline/etc: Been discussed at extensive lengths. If you need me to go into this, I will. I can also show examples for days.

2) Sid/Letang individual play: Sid has every excuse and it sucks. Letang is coming from a difficult injury. We needed tehse 2 to keep us in the playoff hunt for JR to have time to get the guys we need to be Cup contenders.

3) Mental/physical exhaustion: Been discussed at extensive lengths.

4) Bottom 6: Here is where I put bottom 6. We all agreed the bottom 6 is holding us back from being a Cup contender, but it is not the reason why we have a 22% chance of even getting in the playoffs. That's for damn sure.

5) Goaltending: Although it feels goaltending is bad, the amount of danger zone shots given up pretty much explain this.

Agree. To sum it up: it’s not the roster, it’s the player’s attitudes/motivation right now.

 

[JTG]

If JR can pull it off with Dumo, I have no issues with that either. However, I doubt Dumo brings back the kind of legit offensively talented blueliner that Maatta can.

If you can upgrade on Maatta with a better skating blueliner that isn't a rental, you do it.

I know we all have our favorites on this team, but now isn't the time to get attached to anyone if we truly want to see this team get fixed.

That means I'm open to Guentzel moved in the right deal, or Hornqvist being moved, etc.

I'm also aware that these moves could blow up badly, but JR isn't here to do a youth movement or a rebuild, he's here to max out the Malkin and Crosby era.

I agree with you. Sid and Geno are off limits for me, but if there is a deal there for anyone else that makes sense I'd take it.

I think if JR is going to do an on-the-fly retool (which looks about the rate we are going right now), he needs to bring back players who are in their mid-20's to offset the fact we have no prospects.

I'll challenge this. Re-sign Bones and Re-sign Daley. Is this team in any different position?

That's hard to say. I'd say the offense would be better. Daley would help the cause right now, definitely. Would that change the fact letting them walk for me? Absolutely not.

 

[Nakawick]

Of course the team is hung over mentally and physically. They didn't forget how play hockey over the summer. We let all of our UFA's walk and lost a lot of forward depth that we didn't replace. For this reason, and expecting the hangover to come, many of us were expecting a trade for a very good player over the summer. Almost all summer the debate on here was who we were getting as our 3c, with Duchene being a particularly polarizing topic. JR certainly tried, but it wasn't meant to be. Most of us were afraid of losing Dad and his versatility and leadership. Many of us were skeptical of how Letang would be post surgery, and he hasn't been his usual self.
So knowing these things and expecting the team to be hung over and losing depth, particularly our 3 and 4 c's, what is the logical course of action to help the team? Teach Sid how to play hockey and get engaged or trade for depth to replace what we lost? It sounds like a no brainer to me. I know what our management is trying to do. I guess we agree to disagree, but our lack of forward depth is the one thing that can be controlled to a certain extent. We can't cyborg Sid and Letang.

 

[ColePens]

Agree. To sum it up: it’s not the roster, it’s the player’s attitudes/motivation right now.

That's what is keeping us from a playoff team, absolutely, IMO. Now Cup contender? We were never going to be a Cup contender with 87/58 playing the way they are. Period. But we would need a bottom 6 adjustment for that to occur, too.

Basically they need to go on the run of their lives again with some fortunate luck to go their way at the same time.

 

[Shaffer]

That's what is keeping us from a playoff team, absolutely, IMO. Now Cup contender? We were never going to be a Cup contender with 87/58 playing the way they are. Period. But we would need a bottom 6 adjustment for that to occur, too.

Basically they need to go on the run of their lives again with some fortunate luck to go their way at the same time.

Say we are out of it in by the deadline, do you trade Hornqvist? Honestly I would. Sell him to the worst team offering a 1st and don’t look back.

 

[ColePens]

Of course the team is hung over mentally and physically. They didn't forget how play hockey over the summer. We let all of our UFA's walk and lost a lot of forward depth that we didn't replace. For this reason, and expecting the hangover to come, many of us were expecting a trade for a very good player over the summer. Almost all summer the debate on here was who we were getting as our 3c, with Duchene being a particularly polarizing topic. JR certainly tried, but it wasn't meant to be. Most of us were afraid of losing Dad and his versatility and leadership. Many of us were skeptical of how Letang would be post surgery, and he hasn't been his usual self.
So knowing these things and expecting the team to be hung over and losing depth, particularly our 3 and 4 c's, what is the logical course of action to help the team? Teach Sid how to play hockey and get engaged or trade for depth to replace what we lost? It sounds like a no brainer to me. I know what our management is trying to do. I guess we agree to disagree, but our lack of forward depth is the one thing that can be controlled to a certain extent. We can't cyborg Sid and Letang.

So then i'm not sure what you wanted to happen? I refuse to speculate, but we have 3-4 really solid people I trust that send me info. There was rumors among 2 of them that we attempted to get Tierney. A way to bolster our center depth and stay young. That didn't work out. LV didn't want to move their players until they saw what they had.

I didn't like Reaves trade. I wanted our identity to maintain but I understood it. I hated getting rid of Wilson, no matter how bad he is elsewhere, he fit our team. I thought Archi was another guy that could have been cool for the bottom 6. Hell a L4 of Wilson, Archi, and Tierney could have been decent.

But things didn't fall for JR the way he wanted and the team is at fault for not giving him cushion to find the guys we needed. Why do we always blame JR and not the players? I don't get it.

 

[ColePens]

Say we are out of it in by the deadline, do you trade Hornqvist? Honestly I would. Sell him to the worst team offering a 1st and don’t look back.

I am happy I'm not a GM... I would re-sign Horny still. We just have nothing like him. I think losing him would be devastating. I would still re-sign the guy.

But that decision is a coin flip if it works out or not.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I go back to my argument: Add Bones/Cullen and we are not in the clear. And technically our realistic shot was at re-signing Bones and acquiring Sheahan. In that scenario, I don't see a big difference in our overall record. 1-2 games? Max? Maybe? So if you put a realistic twist on it and say Bones re-signed, loss of one more defender because we needed the money for Bones, and bring in Sheahan. Now... add Wilson/Archi, too. I would have much rather preferred that and we had a chance to run that, but chose differently.

My issues:

1) Lack of effort/focus/discipline/etc: Been discussed at extensive lengths. If you need me to go into this, I will. I can also show examples for days.

2) Sid/Letang individual play: Sid has every excuse and it sucks. Letang is coming from a difficult injury. We needed tehse 2 to keep us in the playoff hunt for JR to have time to get the guys we need to be Cup contenders.

3) Mental/physical exhaustion: Been discussed at extensive lengths.

4) Bottom 6: Here is where I put bottom 6. We all agreed the bottom 6 is holding us back from being a Cup contender, but it is not the reason why we have a 22% chance of even getting in the playoffs. That's for damn sure.

5) Goaltending: Although it feels goaltending is bad, the amount of danger zone shots given up pretty much explain this.

Our bottom 6 issues will weigh on some of the other issues though. How much? No one can prove it so it’s just an opinion on how much we all think it weighs on things.

I personally think it’s substantial.

The coach plays the top 6 more because our bottom 6 is just not good (on track for lowest goals in the last 10 years). That leads to fatigue especially given the amount of hockey we’ve played.

Mentally it’s draining because they (rightly or wrongly) look at the bottom 6 and must think if they don’t score they won’t win.

The opposition can manage us way easier. The coaches don’t need to worry about the bottom 6 at all. The opposition get easier minutes playing our bottom 6 so they will likely play better and harder against the top 6. Mentally and physically draining more than usual.

Our top 6 scores 6.1 times more than the bottom 6. That’s a massive gap. Compare that to Tampa 3.8 and Washington 2.5 times their bottom 6’s.

Sully will need to come up with another style but that’s going to take time and probably won’t really kick in until our roster is finalised and he knows who he has.

While the 3C and top 6 LW are much harder to get, he should be able to get better 4th liner’s than Kuhn,Rowney, Reaves (only one should be in the lineup at any onetime). I’m sure Reaves is staying he looked way better with a fast winger (Rust, Archie).

Hagelin’s really ****ed us this season. Cap, potential lines and production have really hampered us this season.

 

[ColePens]

Tom Hanks (always funny for me to write) - the ice time part was called out last week as bullshit. The times were not all that different. And last year Sully got lit up because he was rolling lines and never went top 6 heavy. So that part was debunked.

Now the mental draining/how teams handle us - I can agree. It keeps us from Cup contenders, though, not bottom of the barrel in the east.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Matt Murray has been a bag of ass this year. Given his numbers, in years past he would have been burned at the stake. He gets more leeway because of the past 2 postseasons but he's quite possibly one of the worst starting G's in the league this year.

He is, without a doubt the biggest disappointment after Kris Letang.