OT: red sox/mlb thread part xxiv: dewey's revenge

[CDJ]

Of course we had the chance. You're telling me KC would have taken Shields over Lester this past offseason?

Yes, duh.

The one constant in all of these threads is that Shields is continuously underrated. Last year people were telling me he wasn't a 1 or 2....

He could've won Cy Young if it wasn't for Verlander 2 years ago and last year he was a horse (and a more effective one than Lester)

 

[bruinswincup]

Yes, duh.

The one constant in all of these threads is that Shields is continuously underrated. Last year people were telling me he wasn't a 1 or 2....

LMAO no ****ing way. KC would have been doing back flips to get lester.

 

[BergyDGD]

Or the one you left out....either your expectations are way off or you dont realize what this guy has been for us. But by all means, hijack a conversation because he isnt a personal favorite.

Sorry I hijacked a conversation talking about a pitcher who pitched tonight. Ya things really got thrown off topic. Sorry for having lofty expectations for a highly touted prospect. I realize what he's been for us and at his height of success he was a very solid 2 pitcher.

 

[CDJ]

LMAO no ****ing way

Uhh care to use evidence as to why?

His 2.80 ERA in 240 innings two years ago not enough, or was his 3.5 in 220 innings not enough?

Yes. I would absolutely rather pick Shields over Lester. And no, I highly doubt a Lester for Myers deal was ever on the table

 

[EverettMike]

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/shielja02.shtml

I'm going to bed, you people figure it out.

 

[CDJ]

Hahaha good night, Mike. Get that rest for tomorrow night. Aceves vs Archer!!!! (I heard there was a hockey game too)

Yeah, I'm definitely going Shields if I am KC....not to mention he's at 2.80 again this year.

EDIT: Here's a fun fact. James Shields had more CG in 2011 than Lester has had for his entire career.

 

[bruinswincup]

Uhh care to use evidence as to why?

His 2.80 ERA in 240 innings two years ago not enough, or was his 3.5 in 220 innings not enough?

Yes. I would absolutely rather pick Shields over Lester. And no, I highly doubt a Lester for Myers deal was ever on the table

how about his .510 ERA in 2010? or the 4.14 the year before. Lester is a power throwing lefty who sucked on an awful team, the one outlier on his record.

 

[Johnnyduke]

He was/is a serviceable 2 or 3 starter, not chopped liver, not ace material though appeared to have all the physical tools just not the mental game which is the most frustrating thing. Also King Felix was on an awful team. Plus Lester's collapse with the rest of the team in 2011 didn't help his cause for my view on him.

He was a lot better than he is now, that's one of my points. I think that is obvious. Give him some credit for the pitcher he was. I think you're understating what he has accomplished. We seem to agree that looking at wins alone doesn't accomplish much.

Lester didn't "cost" us game 7 that year (I still put the lion's share of the blame on the home plate ump calling JD Drew out on a 3-2 pitch David Price threw that the catcher caught in the state of Alabama), but a true ace doesn't let himself get outpitched by Matt Garza in such a key game.

To me, if you wanna look at that game 7...it was on the bats. Or if you look at Garza's two starts, he dominated our lineup.

 

[bruinswincup]

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/shielja02.shtml

I'm going to bed, you people figure it out.

racist

 

[CDJ]

how about his .510 ERA in 2010? or the 4.14 the year before. Lester is a power throwing lefty who sucked on an awful team, the one outlier on his record.

Okay, I get it, you'd rather have Lester because he was better than Shields 3 years ago. Got it. Last year Shields was better (not hard to do) and the year before he was WAYYYY better (was hard to do since Lester was actually good that year).

And Lester hasn't been a power lefty for a bit now. He isn't a soft tosser by any means, but if I was KC....the choice isn't even close. Especially when Shields has been a proven leader in the clubhouse and among younger pitchers (just look at Cobb this year...that change has improved big time thanks to Shields) and Lester's track record has been spotty (beer and chicken BS and what have you)

 

[Johnnyduke]

Sorry I hijacked a conversation talking about a pitcher who pitched tonight. Ya things really got thrown off topic. Sorry for having lofty expectations for a highly touted prospect. I realize what he's been for us and at his height of success he was a very solid 2 pitcher.

I also have lofty expectations for Lester. There's nothing wrong with that. My last point to you is just acknowledge that he was our most consistent starter for four years and that it wasn't by default--he pitched really well.

 

[BergyDGD]

He was a lot better than he is now, that's one of my points. I think that is obvious. Give him some credit for the pitcher he was. I think you're understating what he has accomplished. We seem to agree that looking at wins alone doesn't accomplish much.



To me, if you wanna look at that game 7...it was on the bats. Or if you look at Garza's two starts, he dominated our lineup.

Maybe his prime years coinciding with my four years in college are a reason his best years are not as clear to me. It seems like anything after the 2007 World Series was just a bag of suck, even though they were on the verge of going the WS, and then bowed out to LAA in a sweep in 2009. Maybe the last three years of not making the playoffs has skewed a lot what happened from 2008-2012 individually for Lester.

 

[bruinswincup]

Okay, I get it, you'd rather have Lester because he was better than Shields 3 years ago. Got it. Last year Shields was better (not hard to do) and the year before he was WAYYYY better (was hard to do since Lester was actually good that year).

And Lester hasn't been a power lefty for a bit now. He isn't a soft tosser by any means, but if I was KC....the choice isn't even close. Especially when Shields has been a proven leader in the clubhouse and among younger pitchers (just look at Cobb this year...that change has improved big time thanks to Shields) and Lester's track record has been spotty (beer and chicken BS and what have you)

You picked two seasons a year apart and I picked two seasons. Lester was our ace for 4 straight seasons before last season which I don't even count because of how pathetic everything was.

You're citing last season? When we had a garbage manager, lineup, bullpen, and staff? That is the definition of an outlier.

 

[CDJ]

You picked two seasons a year apart and I picked two seasons. Lester was our ace for 4 straight seasons before last season which I don't even count because of how pathetic everything was.

You're citing last season? When we had a garbage manager, lineup, bullpen, and staff? That is the definition of an outlier.

I'm looking at it from a performance perspective as well as a Royals perspective. Shields has undeniably been better than Lester for 2011, 2012, and so far 2013. And it is absolutely fair to use last year. It's not like it didn't exist. Lester was bad, it is what it is.

4 years ago is irrelevant. At least the last year or two can show trends, but 4 years in baseball is an eternity for a pitcher. And the trends of the last couple years show that Shields is a better pitcher.

EDIT: And trust me, I like Lester a lot. Just look at the last page.

 

[bp13]

how about his .510 ERA in 2010? or the 4.14 the year before. Lester is a power throwing lefty who sucked on an awful team, the one outlier on his record.

He's a solid #2. No question.

And I'll be 100% candid...I'm biased. I don't like Jon Lester and haven't for a few seasons (since before Fried Chicken and Beer). I think he's too cocky for a guy who doesn't win big games. I view him as a solid #2, innings eater pitcher. I don't want him starting a big game, I don't rely on him to come up big when needed (like last night when our pen was spent), and I don't like his general attitude. I'd have made that KC trade in a second and I'd be shopping him today.

All that and I still wouldn't deny that an innings-eating #2 starter is very, very valuable.

 

[Ron Quixote]

He's a solid #2. No question.

And I'll be 100% candid...I'm biased. I don't like Jon Lester and haven't for a few seasons (since before Fried Chicken and Beer). I think he's too cocky for a guy who doesn't win big games. I view him as a solid #2, innings eater pitcher. I don't want him starting a big game, I don't rely on him to come up big when needed (like last night when our pen was spent), and I don't like his general attitude. I'd have made that KC trade in a second and I'd be shopping him today.

All that and I still wouldn't deny that an innings-eating #2 starter is very, very valuable.

Yep. He's the anti-clutch.

 

[bp13]

Yep. He's the anti-clutch.

I realize saying that is bound to draw ire from his defenders because it is totally subjective. I'm not about to look up his career numbers against division leaders or vs. #1's and 2's of other staffs. That said, I honestly feel like any time he is lined up against a quality, top of the rotation starter, he loses. He might pitch well in those games, but he never seems to win.

And what's even more aggravating is this...hasn't he reached the point in his career where he can go at least a few months without some major delivery flaw that results in a string of horrid starts? I am so sick of hearing that he feels good and can't figure out the problem. Is he that clueless about his own mechanics? At least lie and tell us you feel like **** out there because you sure as hell look like ****.

 

[Ron Quixote]

I realize saying that is bound to draw ire from his defenders because it is totally subjective. I'm not about to look up his career numbers against division leaders or vs. #1's and 2's of other staffs. That said, I honestly feel like any time he is lined up against a quality, top of the rotation starter, he loses. He might pitch well in those games, but he never seems to win.

And what's even more aggravating is this...hasn't he reached the point in his career where he can go at least a few months without some major delivery flaw that results in a string of horrid starts? I am so sick of hearing that he feels good and can't figure out the problem. Is he that clueless about his own mechanics? At least lie and tell us you feel like **** out there because you sure as hell look like ****.

He said that last night too and I screamed at the TV "But I feel like **** and it's your ****ing fault!!"

Wife woke up with a start...

 

[JRull86]

De La Torre down, Aceves up

 

[BigBadBruin8]

De La Torre down, Aceves up

Aceves is like a bad rash. Always popping up.

Maybe he's good for a beanbrawl game though.

 

[BCeagle]

Aceves is like a bad rash. Always popping up.

Maybe he's good for a beanbrawl game though.

Good for a spot start.

Miller used to be a starter also and now in the pen but he has issues with control too.

It would be nice escaping Tampa with the rubber game.

I do not trust Bailey to be your go to closer but we'll see how it goes.

 

[LSCII]

Aceves is like a bad rash. Always popping up.

Maybe he's good for a beanbrawl game though.

He's the baseball version of herpes...

 

[EverettMike]

Where are the Jon Lester defenders in this thread? I keep reading about them, but all I see are anti-Lester people and people that are disappointed he isn't better, even though he doesn't suck.

 

[LSCII]

Where are the Jon Lester defenders in this thread? I keep reading about them, but all I see are anti-Lester people and people that are disappointed he isn't better, even though he doesn't suck.

I'm not anti Lester, I just think a lot of people in New England overrate him. I was certainly pissed at the display he put on last night though. That was nothing if not a complete lack of effort on his part. Good pitchers find a way to fight through a rough night where they don't have their best stuff in order to give their team a chance to win, especially after an extra innings game the day before. Instead of grinding it out though, Lester looked like he was trying to get the hook. It was insulting to me as a fan.

 

[EverettMike]

I'm not anti Lester, I just think a lot of people in New England overrate him. I was certainly pissed at the display he put on last night though. That was nothing if not a complete lack of effort on his part. Good pitchers find a way to fight through a rough night where they don't have their best stuff in order to give their team a chance to win, especially after an extra innings game the day before. Instead of grinding it out though, Lester looked like he was trying to get the hook. It was insulting to me as a fan.

I am talking about the "he sucks" crew that keep arguing with the "Lester defenders."

Oh, and he absolutely gave up last night. Awful.