Rebuild Thread III: Buckle up, new season starts NOW!

[Drew75]

Steen and Colaiacovo were young players with forthcoming upside traded for a veteran 3rd line winger.

This was considered a mistake by most here. So I am confused, why some feel that it is okay now for the Leafs to deal young players with forthcoming upside for a 3rd line winger.

I am okay with it, but I wonder where all those people that keep referring to the Steen deal as a mistake are suddenly okay with this change in philosophy by Leafs Mgt.

They have been moving out prospects They don't see a fit for all summer - how is that a change in philosophy???

You also keep with the ridiculous comparison of 1st round picks who MADE the NHL vs mid round picks who weren't even necessarily high on the Marlies depth chart

 

[The Winter Soldier]

They have been moving out prospects They don't see a fit for all summer - how is that a change in philosophy???

You also keep with the ridiculous comparison of 1st round picks who MADE the NHL vs mid round picks who weren't even necessarily high on the Marlies depth chart

We will have to disagree. The Grabner deal is one of making the present team stronger. The 5 players are not throwaway prospects as you make it seem to be.

Atleast 3 still have a good chance to make the NHL. So though you may not want to admit it. Leafs need to win today desire outweighed the patience with young players mantra they just spoke about no more than 4 months ago.

This is what I call a change in philosophy.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Steen and Colaiacovo were young NHLers with good potential. Most of the assets moving out are prospects with low ceilings and/or not much chance of becoming decent NHLers.

Pretty obvious difference.

you would think.


in all honesty, I am raising an eyebrow of how many prospects we are tossing out. (like we've eliminated 1 entire class minus Kadri, almost another class, and then 5 more players). however, it seems that they are supplementing it with all those guys they are finding in Russia, the un-drafted guys (who at the very least are younger than the other ones so see what they have vs the players that were traded that are simply being pushed down in the depth chart).

but we were at 49 contracts. even with the ones that would slide, that wouldn't give us that much room. now we're at... what? 45? I don't think we'll sign ALL the PTOs, - i bet the best of Joly/Brolliard/Press-goalie whatever his name is gets a contract - see who hits waivers, and then work some trade-y magic.

 

[Drew75]

Well the year is still young, we do not know what other moves Lou will be making.

The argument is accurate. We were not supposed to get older, but younger.

Now I always thought after Babcock came on, we would ice a competitive team capable of making the playoffs. That seems to be the direction we are taking.

Win now, and continue to draft and develop.

I don't think anyone here expected them to ice a team of kids and go Full Edmonton.

What you see (although I really don't get why) is the Leafs trying make the playoffs based on them trading prospects they felt were expendable and low on the depth chart What most of us see is a team set up for transition, full of character, flexible contracts, and no where near enough talent to do any damage in the standings.

 

[Semantics]

Atleast 3 still have a good chance to make the NHL. So though you may not want to admit it. Leafs need to win today desire outweighed the patience with young players mantra they just spoke about no more than 4 months ago.

This is what I call a change in philosophy.

Wrong. A single second or third round that we get back from Grabner is worth far more in Hunter's hands than a bunch of 20+ year old garbage Nonis era picks.

 

[Drew75]

We will have to disagree. The Grabner deal is one of making the present team stronger. The 5 players are not throwaway prospects as you make it seem to be.

Atleast 3 still have a good chance to make the NHL. So though you may not want to admit it. Leafs need to win today desire outweighed the patience with young players mantra they just spoke about no more than 4 months ago.

This is what I call a change in philosophy.

Agree to disagree, and we can revisit after they trade deadline when this current roster is torn apart for futures.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Agree to disagree, and we can revisit after they trade deadline when this current roster is torn apart for futures.

Wrong. A single second or third round that we get back from Grabner is worth far more in Hunter's hands than a bunch of 20+ year old garbage Nonis era picks.

You can both claim the 5 propects will never amount to anything. But no one will know for years. Remember it took Steen 10 years to peak.

But one thing you cannot argue on. Leafs focused on a player that could play right now by giving up some future.

This is a fundamental change to what Shanahan preached when the season ended. No short cuts.

Now again, who am I to argue with Lou, Babcock, and Shanahan. Smart hockey people.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

You can both claim the 5 propects will never amount to anything. But no one will know for years. Remember it took Steen 10 years to peak.

But one thing you cannot argue on. Leafs focused on a player that could play right now by giving up some future.

This is a fundamental change to what Shanahan preached when the season ended. No short cuts.

Now again, who am I to argue with Lou, Babcock, and Shanahan. Smart hockey people.

If Grabner plays well enough he could return multiple picks at the deadline either alone or in a package. The futures the Leafs gave up today could easily be regained come next years trade deadline.

 

[Semantics]

Steen was just an OK player when he was traded from the Leafs. He didn't blossom until he played under Hitchcock and had a career high in his 10th pro season. No one back then when the Leafs had him knew Steen was going to be that good.

No one? Speak for yourself, buddy. There were quite a few people around here at the time who knew he was a good player and thought that was a bad trade.

He was a high quality two way second line center when he played for the Leafs. He posted the same numbers Bozak does, with worse linemates, and while being excellent defensively.

Regardless, he was a full time NHL player from age 21. You're comparing him to a bunch of 20-22 year olds who are mediocre in the AHL *at best*.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

If Grabner plays well enough he could return multiple picks at the deadline either alone or in a package. The futures the Leafs gave up today could easily be regained come next years trade deadline.

Maybe. It can go either way. Maybe this team gets Stamkos and Grabner becomes are Stralman.

Regardless, the point is Leafs focused on now rather than later with the Grabner deal. This much we know.

Where as at the deadline and summer we were dealing vets for picks and prospects.

The only change I can see is Babcock and Lou are now here, and they are in power positions with Shanahan. So my point of a shift is not unlikely, but rather than has happened.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

No one? Speak for yourself, buddy. There were quite a few people around here at the time who knew he was a good player and thought that was a bad trade.

He was a high quality two way second line center when he played for the Leafs. He posted the same numbers Bozak does, with worse linemates, and while being excellent defensively.

Regardless, he was a full time NHL player from age 21. You're comparing him to a bunch of 20-22 year olds who are mediocre in the AHL *at best*.

I can speak for myself because I remember when Steen played for us. He was always a player that had a 3rd line look to him. Nothing special, worked hard and was a well spoken guy. You know how some don't value intangibles here. Steen had them. But I will bet you there was not one poster here that saw him becoming the player he became under Hitchcock. Infact no one talked about him until he had that career year out of nowhere.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Maybe. It can go either way. Maybe this team gets Stamkos and Grabner becomes are Stralman.

Regardless, the point is Leafs focused on now rather than later with the Grabner deal. This much we know.

Where as at the deadline and summer we were dealing vets for picks and prospects.

The only change I can see is Babcock and Lou are now here, and they are in power positions with Shanahan. So my point of a shift is not unlikely, but rather than has happened.

They probably focused on both the present and future to be honest. Leafs brass probably figured the prospects we dealt weren't promising enough to keep, and that potential returns on a healthy Grabner would be better for this franchise in the long run.

Also Kessel was traded for futures when Babcock was here.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

They probably focused on both the present and future to be honest. Leafs brass probably figured the prospects we dealt weren't promising enough to keep, and that potential returns on a healthy Grabner would be better for this franchise in the long run.

Also Kessel was traded for futures when Babcock was here.

The most Grabner could fetch at the deadline is a 3rd, maybe a 2nd rd pick.

I doubt this was the main reason the Leafs dealt for him. The deal was purely for a proven player that could play now, that could possibly contribute to a run at the playoffs.

There is no way the deal is a 2nd rd pick(tops) for 5 prospects. If it was, then Lou is not the GM I know he is. This would be one of the worse value deals an almost 30 year exp GM would make.

 

[Semantics]

You can both claim the 5 propects will never amount to anything. But no one will know for years. Remember it took Steen 10 years to peak.

We did not trade a player like Steen.

#16 Ben Winnett
#19 Viktor Stalberg
#27 Korbinian Holzer
#30 Juraj Mikus
#NR Grant Rollheiser

That's what we traded.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

We did not trade a player like Steen.

#16 Ben Winnett
#19 Viktor Stalberg
#27 Korbinian Holzer
#30 Juraj Mikus
#NR Grant Rollheiser

That's what we traded.

What do these players have to do with the Grabner deal?

We traded a 15 goal scorer in Steen when he left here. He played with Sundin on quite a few occasions. 15 goals with a HOF Center. Don't try to make it sound like you knew he was going to turn out to be the player he just became 2 seasons ago. I was around back then, when he played. You may fool some people into thinking he was an obvious talent, but I am wise to know it just wasn't the case since I followed the team intently back then too.

 

[Beleafer4]

I can speak for myself because I remember when Steen played for us. He was always a player that had a 3rd line look to him. Nothing special, worked hard and was a well spoken guy. You know how some don't value intangibles here. Steen had them. But I will bet you there was not one poster here that saw him becoming the player he became under Hitchcock. Infact no one talked about him until he had that career year out of nowhere.

Prospects--->Contract Spots--->UFA's---->picks at TDL---->younger prospects.

Yes we will be older for the next few months. I wouldn't compare UFA grabner to kessel. And I wouldn't compare the quality of these prospects to Steen or Rask. Steen and Rask were gardiner level players.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

The most Grabner could fetch at the deadline is a 3rd, maybe a 2nd rd pick.

I doubt this was the main reason the Leafs dealt for him. The deal was purely for a proven player that could play now, that could possibly contribute to a run at the playoffs.

There is no way the deal is a 2nd rd pick(tops) for 5 prospects. If it was, then Lou is not the GM I know he is. This would be one of the worse value deals an almost 30 year exp GM would make.

Well if you want another angle, a healthy Grabner will be a top 6 forward on this team, helping to round out the top 6, ensuring that there's no pressure to put a guy like say, Nylander, on the team because of a lack of talent. JVR, Bozak, Parenteau, Kadri, Lupul, and Grabner isn't amazing, but it's enough to fill out the roster and allow our other prospects with higher potential than the ones we traded to continue to develop down on the farm.

Also, considering how you're telling people not to throw absolutes about the prospects we traded and their potential, you shouldn't be throwing out absolutes about Grabners potential value. He could return to that high flying goal scorer he was a few years ago with the ice time available. A team desperate for scoring may be foolish enough to surrender a 1st. And considering how highly you think of Lou, he should be able to pull off such a move if Grabner's looking good come the TDL.

 

[Woll Smoth]

What do these players have to do with the Grabner deal?

We traded a 15 goal scorer in Steen when he left here. He played with Sundin on quite a few occasions. 15 goals with a HOF Center. Don't try to make it sound like you knew he was going to turn out to be the player he just became 2 seasons ago. I was around back then, when he played. You may fool some people into thinking he was an obvious talent, but I am wise to know it just wasn't the case since I followed the team intently back then too.

What does the Steen trade have to do with the Grabner deal? What does Rask have to do with the Grabner deal? What does Stralman have to do with the Grabner deal?

There is literally no connection here. Steen and Stralman weren't even prospects by the time they left the Leafs organization.

You back up your arguments with extremely flawed logic.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Well if you want another angle, a healthy Grabner will be a top 6 forward on this team, helping to round out the top 6, ensuring that there's no pressure to put a guy like say, Nylander, on the team because of a lack of talent. JVR, Bozak, Parenteau, Kadri, Lupul, and Grabner isn't amazing, but it's enough to fill out the roster and allow our other prospects with higher potential than the ones we traded to continue to develop down on the farm.

Also, considering how you're telling people not to throw absolutes about the prospects we traded and their potential, you shouldn't be throwing out absolutes about Grabners potential value. He could return to that high flying goal scorer he was a few years ago with the ice time available. A team desperate for scoring may be foolish enough to surrender a 1st. And considering how highly you think of Lou, he should be able to pull off such a move if Grabner's looking good come the TDL.

Or we can look at the obvious. Leafs are trying to ice a competitive team. Grabner is not a prospect, he is ready now. So Leafs spent some future on a NHL ready player because they believe they can win now or they may think this team is better than what it was under Horachek. Why is this so hard to believe?

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Or we can look at the obvious. Leafs are trying to ice a competitive team. Grabner is not a prospect, he is ready now. So Leafs spent some future on a NHL ready player because they believe they can win now or they may think this team is better than what it was under Horachek. Why is this so hard to believe?

Lou is not the GM I know he is if he thinks the difference between this team finishing in the bottom 10 and making the playoffs is adding a few vets via trade and PTO's.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

What does the Steen trade have to do with the Grabner deal? What does Rask have to do with the Grabner deal? What does Stralman have to do with the Grabner deal?

There is literally no connection here. Steen and Stralman weren't even prospects by the time they left the Leafs organization.

You back up your arguments with extremely flawed logic.

Trading youth, potential and the future for proven older 3rd line players.

~win now by sacrificing some future.

Do not ask me to explain this to you again. I'm not wasting another keystroke on this.

 

[91Kadri91*]

Or we can look at the obvious. Leafs are trying to ice a competitive team. Grabner is not a prospect, he is ready now. So Leafs spent some future on a NHL ready player because they believe they can win now or they may think this team is better than what it was under Horachek. Why is this so hard to believe?

No, the Leafs didn't 'spend some future'; the players they traded were not a part of the Leafs' future. Why is this so hard to believe?

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Lou is not the GM I know he is if he thinks the difference between this team finishing in the bottom 10 and making the playoffs is adding a few vets via trade and PTO's.

I like how Lou is managing, and he obviously has the approval of Shanny as well as the trust. I am sure Babcock is working both men what he wants here.

Anyone that knows these guys, knows they want to make the playoffs. Last year we added Winnik and Santa. They were our most consistent players. I wouldn't underestimate any signing we made this summer. This team will win as a collective as opposed to relying on Kessel to carry us. They may surprise with this approach.

 

[Semantics]

What do these players have to do with the Grabner deal?

They're the players who in 2008 (when Steen was traded) had the same ranking as the prospects we just traded, based on HF rankings. So if you want to compare this trade to a 2008 scenario, you should be talking about this list of players, not Steen.

Now, looking at that list, a couple did make the NHL, but were replacement level players with very little value. If LL can instead use those 5 freed up contracts to eventually get one or two legitimate, quality players, it's a win.

Look at the big picture. It's not just about the players we acquired and gave up in the trade, it's about that plus all the other side effects like opening up spots on the Marlies, bringing in better prospects via those 4 contract slots, and adding more internal competition at the top level too, pushing the bar higher across the board from NHL down to ECHL.

Or would you just prefer we keep the dead weight and pass up the chance to acquire better assets?

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Or we can look at the obvious. Leafs are trying to ice a competitive team. Grabner is not a prospect, he is ready now. So Leafs spent some future on a NHL ready player because they believe they can win now or they may think this team is better than what it was under Horachek. Why is this so hard to believe?

Quite frankly, I don't know how you can argue, advocate, and hope for the Leafs to go in the direction that you're saying they are. You're literally making the point that the Leafs should try to do what they've been doing for the past 10 years, the team building techniques that haven't led to any tangible results at all. How you could want them to go in such a direction after what you've witnessed in all your years watching this franchise is beyond me.

I also can't believe you equate the dealings of the four prospects we dealt today as being equal to the dealings of Rask, Steen, Cola, the 1st rounders traded for Kessel, etc. None of the guys we traded away had the same pedigree, potential, or NHL experience of the other future assets we traded. It's not like the Leafs traded away Marner, or Nylander, or Rielly, or any future picks. It was a few late round selected prospects who've had mediocre showings in the minors.