Prospect Info: Realistic upside of Edmonton prospects?

[KlefDown]

What thread is this?
Realistic upside of our prospects or lowest ceiling for our prospects?
come on now people.

 

[SterlingArcher]

Draisaitl number 2 centre
Nurse number 2 defenceman
Klefbom number 3
Marincin number okay 3 but elite 4
Kharia top nine power forward
Yakimov elite third line centre

That's my hope maybe I don't know realistic or not it's what I think they can be

 

[Aerchon]

What thread is this?
Realistic upside of our prospects or lowest ceiling for our prospects?
come on now people.

That's why I did Optimistic and Realistic.

If you read nothing but scouting reports every prospect would eventually turn into an NHLer. They all have that potential. Read anything about Leon D for example and you could easily be penciling him in for 80+ points in as early as 3-5 years... So realistic is very subjective. On the flip side our 2 top prospects could also bust completely out of the NHL. Highly unlikely but there is that chance.

Perhaps this should have been called the tempered expectations for our prospects?

 

[Soliloquy of a Dogge]

I think Draisaitl's ceiling is higher than a no.2 center.

Forget the size stuff, his vision on the ice is really at an high end level, unteachable stuff.

He will be the best Oilers center other than RNH in the last 20 years IMO, and honestly I wouldn't be that stunned if he turns out to be basically just as good as RNH if not better. Just needs to get his skating up a notch.

Pretty low bar to reach for, really.

 

[Burnt Biscuits]

I won't do all the prospects, just the ones I think will play for us and my realistic expectations for them with a side of crystal ball predictions for fun.

• Draisaitl- 1st line big playmaking center 70-85 points. (He doesn't need to play ahead of RNH to be a 1st line center, or is someone going to argue Forsberg or Federov or Francis weren't 1st line centers because of who they played behind)
• Darnell Nurse- top pairing defenseman a solid #2 35-40 points per year.
• Oscar Klefbom- rock solid anchor on the 2nd d-pairing think Hjarmlsson 20-30 points, his nice passes almost make us forget how stupid we were to let Jeff Petry go.
• Martin Marincin- pretty good 2nd pairing d-man, but has a little hiccup kind of like Kulikov and one of the other two knocks him from his perch taking his spot and eventually gets traded out of town.
• Greg Chase- incredibly frustrating agitating winger 25-30 points
• Dillon Simpson- cup of coffee, gets traded plays quite a few games in the NHL, but mostly on the 3rd pairing.
• David Musil- serves as a depth defenseman for us, gets a short audition before being waived, eventually bounces around the league playing on farm teams but never really catches on, then a nice long successful career in Europe.
• Juhjar Khaira- Solid physical 4th liner with good defense, one of the coaches favourite players always tries to sneak him extra icetime, but never amounts to more then a 4th liner. 10-15 points
• Tyler Pitlick- Physical 4th liner, plays a decent number of games but gets injured and someone else takes his job, never produces enough offense to force us to keep him. Career AHLer
• Mitch Moroz- Try to forcefeed him some icetime on the 4th line but just isn't good enough to stick around. Will open an awesome pizza joint in Edmonton.
• Brandon Davidson- Won't play a ton for us but will bounce around the league for years as a Jason Strudwick/Cory Cross type of player.
• Brad Hunt- Will probably see 2-3 more NHL games this year with us, will get one or 2 more cup of coffees with other teams after that, bonafied AHL superstar.

I wanted to add Brossoit in there, but it's hard to imagine a young goalie having any success with us. I think I am a full blown pessimist on all prospect goalies till they are just flat out dominating the AHL.

 

[Sethis]

Leon Draisaitl:
Optimistic: 1st line responsible point-a-game center built like a truck with elite offense. Comp Marian Hossa at C
Realistic: Excellent 2nd line playmaking C, complementary but very effective. Comp Jozef Stumpel

Greg Chase:
Optimistic: Middle 6 pest with a lot of jam to his game but not so much footspeed, 50-60 point capability. Comp Darcy Tucker
Realistic: Reliable 3rd liner who puts up offense and drives the other team insane. Comp Andrew Shaw

Jujhar Khaira:
Optimistic: Middle 6 C/W who blocks out the sun, uses his massive size, can play a shut down role and has enough offense to make plays. Comp poor man's David Backes.
Realistic: Bottom 6 C/W who plays the shut down role and uses his size effectively to make plays. Comp Manny Malhotra

Bogdan Yakimov
Optimistic: Elite 3rd line C who towers over everyone and has surprsing offense to go with strong defense. Comp Martin Hanzal
Realistic: Bottom 6 C who can take and make a pass all while absorbing a lot of space on the ice. Comp Brian Boyle

Anton Lander:
Optimistic: Defensive ace 3rd line center with a well-rounded game, leadership and gamer's mentality. Comp Boyd Gordon
Realistic: Effective and versatile defensive forward that can move around the bottom 6. Comp Mats Lindgren

Tyler Pitlick:
Optimistic: Defensive ace winger with a huge shot, speed, and a desire to put people through the boards. Comp Mike Grier
Realistic: 4th line energy winger with defensive acumen and great forechecking ability. Comp Matt Hendricks

Mitch Moroz:
Optimistic: Bottom 6 enforcer who can play the game well and move up the lineup but takes care of teammates first. Comp Chris Neil
Realistic: 4th line energy guy that can take and make a pass. Comp Todd Harvey

Darnell Nurse:
Optimistic: Impact 1st pairing defenseman with smarts, nastiness, and the ability to put up 40. Comp Brent Seabrook
Realistic: Mean 2-way D-man who can shut down top players and move the puck. Comp Braydon Coburn with a little more crazy

Justin Schultz:
Optimistic: Dynamite offensive 1st pairing D limited by size and intensity. Comp Brian Campbell
Realisitic: Well-rounded second pairing D with a penchant for offensive play. Comp Darryl Sydor

Martin Marincin:
Optimistic: Top 4 D with a lot of size, offensive ability, and highly efficient defensive game. Comp Alex Edler
Realistic: Bottom 4 D with the same attributes. Comp Marek Malik

Oscar Klefbom:
Optimistic: A shut down D with a low event game and few weaknesses, capable of playing in the top 4. Comp Niklas Hjalmarsson
Realistic: An ultra-reliable number 4, elite bottom pairing do-it-all D man. Comp Toni Lydman.

Dillon Simpson:
Optimistic: Terrific bottom pairing, good number 4, do-it-all D-man who makes positive plays. Comp Steve Staios
Realistic: Journeyman bottom pairing guy who won't hurt you. Comp Steve Montador

David Musil:
Optimistic: Bottom pairing shut down guy and penalty kill ace. Comp Jan Hejda
Realstic: 6/7 defensive specialist.

Martin Gernat:
Optimistic: Rangy d-man with great offensive instincts but real defensive/mental shortcomings. Comp Paul Mara
Realistic: Offensively talented D-man who will struggle to stay in the NHL due to defensive/mental shortcomings.

 

[Zaddy]

Eh, I don't understand the people saying Draisaitl will be maybe 2nd but probably 3rd line center because of his offense. How does he not have offense lol? Draisaitl is so much more than size. He's an incredible offensive player. The notch on his game has never been his offense but his skating. That's the issue here, nothing else. If he had the skating too he would likely have been the #1 pick just because of how amazing his offensive package is considering hands, vision, puck protection etc. If he puts it all together he could even be an amazing #1C but since this is the realistic thread I think he at the very least becomes a solid #2C.

As for the rest:

Nurse: Top pairing, #2 defenseman. Solid two-way player.
Klefbom: Shutdown #4/#5 guy.
Marincin: Solid #3 guy.
Moroz: 4th liner with a little bit of offense.
Chase: 3rd liner, able to vacate on the 2nd line.
Yakimov: #3C
Khaira: #4C

 

[Eirhead*]

Nurse is a corner. Like a Phaneuf and Subban, probably a #1. His numbers are very comparable to those guys. He also has more size than both of them, so theoretically, he could turn out to be an Elite #1.

Draisaitl, also a #1. Him and RNH are very different players, so I don't think it's fair to compare them. But his superior size should make the NHL transition easier for him. Also, his career WHL production has been slightly superior to RNH, so there's not really any doubt he could turn out to be the more productive NHL center.

Klefbom, probably bottom 4. Can't see him being top pairing, but he could be a real solid 2nd or 3rd pairing.

Marincin, #2. Should be a top 4. Could stand to get stronger and be a little more physical to reach maximum potential.

 

[CupofOil]

taking glassbangers template, as it looks nice

this thread is called REALISTIC upside, so here goes

Goalies:
- Laurent Brossoit - AHL starter

Defenders:
- Darnell Nurse - #3 who does a bit of everything, but not tons of offence
- Oscar Klefbom - #4/5 shutdown type, with next to no offence
- Martin Marincin - #4/5
- Dillon Simpson - #6/7/AHL tweener
- Martin Gernat - #6/7/AHL tweener
- David Musil - solid AHL player

Forwards:
- Leon Draisaitl - 2nd/3rd line C, not enough offence to be great 2nd line C, not enough defence to be great 3rd line C
- Bogdan Yakimov - AHL tweener
- Jujhar Khaira - 4th line C
- Greg Chase - very good AHL guy, who maybe gets a cup of coffee
- Mitch Moroz - AHL tweener

That's more pessimistic than realistic IMO especially with Draisaitl and Klefbom. It seems like you picked a worst case scenario with those two and Marincin as well.

I think realistically based on my viewings of these players.

Defensemen

Nurse - #2 - Strong 2 way defenseman who can set a physical tone and shut down the opponent. I'm not sure that his offense will translate though but defensively, he should be very strong.

Klefbom - #2/#3 - Rock solid defensively, good underrated outlet pass and can compete physically with the bigs of the west. Great at winning puck battles. I think he could top out as a solid complimentary #2 if he reaches his potential. Needs to stay healthy though.

Marincin - #3/#4 - Excellent range, very good with stick and some decent offensive instincts but i think his lean frame (which doesn't look like it can take on much mass) will hold him back from being better than a safe, decent 2nd pairing guy. The safest of the group to have a long NHL career.

Simpson - #5/#6 - Probably the most underrated Oiler prospect. The typical "solid at everything but not great at anything" Dman. Very solid positionally, shot blocking machine and he really improved his skating over the last year. I actually think he's close to NHL ready but probably won't have a career in Edmonton due to players being higher than him on the depth chart.

Musil/Gernat/Davidson - AHL/NHL tweeners. I used to have hopes for Musil but he simply doesn't skate well enough, Gernat won't be able to defend at the NHL level, i just haven't seen enough improvements in his game to be confident that he'll be a full time NHLer. Davidson is a prototypical career AHLer, nice story though.

Forwards

Draisaitl - #1 center - He's a beast physically and possesses elite level vision, great at protecting the puck. Needs to work on his defensive awareness and skating but he seems like a determined kid who will work towards rounding out his game. Known as a gym rat and he gets a lot of credit for coming over to North America at such a young age and excelling in a tough league after coming from a subpar developmental league. I'm also impressed that he was able to master the English language so quickly. If you listen to his interviews last year, he could hardly speak any English so that shows something about his determination to improve himself.

I haven't seen much of these other guys outside of Moroz so i'm basing a lot on hearsay, limited viewings and skillset projectability.

Chase - 3rd liner - I like him the best out of the secondary forwards, reminds me of Andrew Shaw a bit. Good skater, good shot and solid defensively. I actually think he has a good shot to be a long time NHLer. Lots of projectable pro skills and of course, the rat factor is always nice.

Yakimov - #4 center - I liked what i saw of him at the WJC but i think he needs to improve his skating if he wants an NHL career. His skating isn't horrible but it seems a little awkward. Honestly, i think there's a better chance that he's a career AHLer than a career NHLer but i guess we'll see.

Khaira - NHL/AHL tweener, maybe more? - Physical beast and very good at protecting the puck but he doesn't create much offense and needs to work on his skating. From my viewings of him, he looks like a bigger Lander. Sound defensively but needs a lot of work to round out his game. It'll be interesting to follow his progress along with Yakimov this season. Projects who could wind up surprising but are raw at the moment.

Moroz - 4th liner - I don't know about him. He's not a coke machine and has a better skillset than say, Kessy for instance, but it's always hard to project these big guys who do well against kids in junior mainly because they're bigger. I'm rooting for him because he seems like a good guy and we can really use his skillset but i just don't know. I want to see what he does in a pro league first before having any confidence that he can amount to more than a career AHLer.

Roy - I have no idea. Looked pretty good last summer but had a rough year battling injuries so i don't really know what to expect from him. It would be nice if one of these skilled guys panned out and gave the Oilers some depth in the system.

So, as expected, the Dmen are well ahead of the forwards in general. The Oilers really need to replenish the farm system with more skilled forwards.

 

[nabob]

Leon Draisaitl:
Optimistic: 1st line responsible point-a-game center built like a truck with elite offense. Comp Marian Hossa at C
Realistic: Excellent 2nd line playmaking C, complementary but very effective. Comp Jozef Stumpel

Greg Chase:
Optimistic: Middle 6 pest with a lot of jam to his game but not so much footspeed, 50-60 point capability. Comp Darcy Tucker
Realistic: Reliable 3rd liner who puts up offense and drives the other team insane. Comp Andrew Shaw

Jujhar Khaira:
Optimistic: Middle 6 C/W who blocks out the sun, uses his massive size, can play a shut down role and has enough offense to make plays. Comp poor man's David Backes.
Realistic: Bottom 6 C/W who plays the shut down role and uses his size effectively to make plays. Comp Manny Malhotra

Bogdan Yakimov
Optimistic: Elite 3rd line C who towers over everyone and has surprsing offense to go with strong defense. Comp Martin Hanzal
Realistic: Bottom 6 C who can take and make a pass all while absorbing a lot of space on the ice. Comp Brian Boyle

Anton Lander:
Optimistic: Defensive ace 3rd line center with a well-rounded game, leadership and gamer's mentality. Comp Boyd Gordon
Realistic: Effective and versatile defensive forward that can move around the bottom 6. Comp Mats Lindgren

Tyler Pitlick:
Optimistic: Defensive ace winger with a huge shot, speed, and a desire to put people through the boards. Comp Mike Grier
Realistic: 4th line energy winger with defensive acumen and great forechecking ability. Comp Matt Hendricks

Mitch Moroz:
Optimistic: Bottom 6 enforcer who can play the game well and move up the lineup but takes care of teammates first. Comp Chris Neil
Realistic: 4th line energy guy that can take and make a pass. Comp Todd Harvey

Darnell Nurse:
Optimistic: Impact 1st pairing defenseman with smarts, nastiness, and the ability to put up 40. Comp Brent Seabrook
Realistic: Mean 2-way D-man who can shut down top players and move the puck. Comp Braydon Coburn with a little more crazy

Justin Schultz:
Optimistic: Dynamite offensive 1st pairing D limited by size and intensity. Comp Brian Campbell
Realisitic: Well-rounded second pairing D with a penchant for offensive play. Comp Darryl Sydor

Martin Marincin:
Optimistic: Top 4 D with a lot of size, offensive ability, and highly efficient defensive game. Comp Alex Edler
Realistic: Bottom 4 D with the same attributes. Comp Marek Malik

Oscar Klefbom:
Optimistic: A shut down D with a low event game and few weaknesses, capable of playing in the top 4. Comp Niklas Hjalmarsson
Realistic: An ultra-reliable number 4, elite bottom pairing do-it-all D man. Comp Toni Lydman.

Dillon Simpson:
Optimistic: Terrific bottom pairing, good number 4, do-it-all D-man who makes positive plays. Comp Steve Staios
Realistic: Journeyman bottom pairing guy who won't hurt you. Comp Steve Montador

David Musil:
Optimistic: Bottom pairing shut down guy and penalty kill ace. Comp Jan Hejda
Realstic: 6/7 defensive specialist.

Martin Gernat:
Optimistic: Rangy d-man with great offensive instincts but real defensive/mental shortcomings. Comp Paul Mara
Realistic: Offensively talented D-man who will struggle to stay in the NHL due to defensive/mental shortcomings.

This. Saved me a lot of typing.

 

[Trafalgar Sadge Law]

I think a lot of you are confusing ceiling, upside, and projection

Player: ceiling, realistic upside, realistic projection (assuming they don't outright bust)

Goalies:
- Laurent Brossoit: low end starting goalie, backup goalie, journeyman

Defenders:
- Darnell Nurse - elite 1D, low end 1D, top pairing dman
- Oscar Klefbom - top pairing dman, low end 2D, #4 dman
- Martin Marincin - 2/3 D tweener, 2/3D tweener, top 4 dman
- Dillon Simpson - top 4 dman, low end 4D, bottom pairing dman
- Martin Gernat - bottom pairing power play specialist, #7 power play specialist, bust
- David Musil - Mark Fraser who gets too much ice time because of his last name, Mark Fraser, bust

Forwards:
- Leon Draisaitl - 1B center, elite 2C, 2nd line center
- Bogdan Yakimov - low end 2C, high end 3rd line center, bottom 6 center
- Jujhar Khaira - elite bottom 6 forward, high end 3rd line center or winger, 4th line energy player
- Greg Chase - 3rd line center, 4th line agitator, 4th line agitator
- Mitch Moroz - 3rd line LW, 4th line enforcer, 4th line enforcer
- Anton Lander - elite 3rd line center, 3C, 4th line journeyman
- Tyler Pitlick - 4th line energy player, 4th line energy player, 4th line energy player

 

[Senor Catface]

If we're really being honest, probably middling players who won't amount to much.

Of them, I bet we only get NHL service out of Draisaitl, Marincin and maybe Nurse, the rest will probably only contribute to other teams.

We can really only hope so. On both accounts, otherwise it might leave a fan wanting to cheer for their team, silliness really.

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

We can really only hope so. On both accounts, otherwise it might leave a fan wanting to cheer for their team, silliness really.

Good for you.

But, if we're being honest, I'm probably correct, thanks for agreeing.

 

[Senor Catface]

Good for you.

But, if we're being honest, I'm probably correct, thanks for agreeing.

Well, better keep your fingers crossed so you're right. Just like you want.

It's like Oilers fans are allergic to being the least bit respectful.

 

[ponokanocker]

Nurse - I still see the sky as the limit for him. Pietrangelo with more of an edge, but probably not quite as much offense. It is possible that the offense translates to the NHL though.

Klefbom - Volchenkov 2.0. Shutdown physical D that will provide limited offence, but can move the puck out of his zone effectively. I could also see him never playing 82 games/year, like Volchenkov, due to his style of play and injury history already. Probably a shorter career.

Marincin - similar to what the Flames got from Bouwmeester, but with less offense. Uses his large frame, but slender body to defend exceptionally well. Also seems to have very high hockey IQ of knowing where to be, and when to be there. Fluid skater, but not really a puck rusher.

Draisaitl - #1 center. I actually don't see very much of a direct comparison to another NHL'er, even though they tried to leading up to the draft. I don't think he will be Crosby or Tavares elite, but will be a solid #1 along with RNH.

Chase - Perron type player? He will need to continue to improve, but he has taken some major jumps already.

Don't know enough of the rest of them to make an assessment.

 

[Paralyzer008]

Draisaitl - First line C/Second Line C on contender, 70 point two-way big man.

Nurse - Strong No.2 D-man who can pot 40 points and be a physical player.

Chase - annoying 3rd line 30 point scorer who hits a lot, provides energy

Houck - energy 4th liner

Khaira - big 4th liner who plays 3rd line on weaker teams, can put up 25-30 points and provide for a bigger body

Lander-4th line C who can play PK

Moroz-4th line LW similar to Kyle Clifford

Tyler Pitlick - energy 4th liner

Roy - 25-30 point 3rd/4th line C

Slepyshev - 40-50 point 2nd/3rd line LW who plays two-way

Yakimov - 35 point 3rd line C who provides a big body, a poor man's Hanzal

Gernat - sheltered No.5 offensive D

Klefbom - solid No.2/No.3 D-man who can score 20-25 points and play important minutes

Marincin - solid No.3 D-man who is defensive but big, provides quality defensive minutes

Simpson - solid No.4 D-man who is rock steady

Brossoit - No.2 goalie who can step in as a 1A when necessary and provide quality

Nagelvoort - Solid No.2 goalie who provides quality backup starts

Musil - No.7 D-man who is kinda slow but blocks shots

 

[Oilerglory]

Nurse Top pairing dman that plays with an edge
Draisaitl 70-80 pt 1st line C potential to play at a higher level than RNH has his first 3 years
Marincin Solid 2 way top 4 min eater
Klefbom top 4 puck mover with 1st pp potential
Khaira 3rd line c/lw physical presence puck possession player
Yakimov 2/3 centre with play making abilities,biggest ? is his adaptability to NA culture and game
Moroz 3rd line power LW can score,get in your face and be effective in puck possession

I think our prospect depth looks very good,its filling in the gaps until these guys are ready that will be our biggest obstacle

 

[xyzed]

btw Marincin gained 5 kg this summer and should another 3 to do his "homework"

 

[Worraps]

Goalies:
- Laurent Brossoit - Backup

Defenders:
- Darnell Nurse - Elite #1 (if his offensive game translates to the NHL, otherwise elite #2)
- Oscar Klefbom - #3 defender
- Martin Marincin - #3 defender
- Dillon Simpson - #4 defender
- Martin Gernat - Sheltered #5 defender
- David Musil - #6 defender

Forwards:
- Leon Draisaitl - 2nd line C
- Bogdan Yakimov - 3rd line C
- Jujhar Khaira - 3rd line C
- Greg Chase - 3rd line RW
- Mitch Moroz - 4th line LW

If a prospect outside of this list makes the team I'm surprised as hell.

I also agree with this. Though I would add:

Defenders
- Joey LaLeggia - Sheltered #5 defender / PP specialist

Forwards
- Marco Roy - 2nd line LW
- Anton Slepyshev - 3rd Line LW
- Travis Ewanyk - 4th line C/LW

As guys with reasonable shots at NHL careers.

 

[Raab]

Some of you guys are really over valuing our prospects I think.

Anyways here's my list


Goalies:
- Laurent Brossoit - AHL Starter

Defenders:
- Darnell Nurse - #3 dman
- Oscar Klefbom - #5 defender
- Martin Marincin - #2 top pairing defender
- Dillon Simpson - #4 defender
- Martin Gernat - # 7 defender
- David Musil - AHL defender

Forwards:
- Leon Draisaitl - 1st line C with PPG potential
- Bogdan Yakimov - 4th line C
- Jujhar Khaira - 4th line C
- Greg Chase - 4th line RW
- Mitch Moroz - 4th line LW

 

[Aceboogie]

Nurse- #1 D or good #2 (Phanuef)
Klefbom- good #2 or #3 D (high end: Edler, realistic: Smid)
Marincin- good #3 (Hjmarlsson)
Simpson- borderline top 4 D (Fayne-lite)
Musil/Gernat- 1 will be borderline top 4, 1 will be AHL player

Draisaitl- #1 75 point center
Chase- 3rd liner (Shaw)
Moroz- good 4th liner (clifford)
Yakimov- good 3rd liner
Khaira-4th line center
Roy-good 4th liner/ low end 3rd liner

 

[ohheyhemsky]

Just following a basis of averages here, let's just say 1/3 of our prospects make the show.

Who are they?

Following Paralyzer008's list, we have 18 prospects that are notable. So 6 guys. I'd say:
Marincin
Nurse
Klefbom
Draisaitl
Yakimov
Chase

If we don't count Marincin, as he's basically a lock, I'd throw in Khaira.

 

[Aceboogie]

Just following a basis of averages here, let's just say 1/3 of our prospects make the show.

Who are they?

Following Paralyzer008's list, we have 18 prospects that are notable. So 6 guys. I'd say:
Marincin
Nurse
Klefbom
Draisaitl
Yakimov
Chase

If we don't count Marincin, as he's basically a lock, I'd throw in Khaira.

Agree with this list, however I have 2 of chase/khaira/musil/simpson/gernat making it. I think all have same chances

 

[Lacaar]

btw Marincin gained 5 kg this summer and should another 3 to do his "homework"

That's a lot of Wheaties!

hopefully he maintains his foot speed.

 

[JustinCider]

Goalies:
- Laurent Brossoit - Backup

Defenders:
- Darnell Nurse - Elite #1 (if his offensive game translates to the NHL, otherwise elite #2)
- Oscar Klefbom - #3 defender
- Martin Marincin - #3 defender
- Dillon Simpson - #4 defender
- Martin Gernat - Sheltered #5 defender
- David Musil - #6 defender

Forwards:
- Leon Draisaitl - 2nd line C
- Bogdan Yakimov - 3rd line C
- Jujhar Khaira - 3rd line C
- Greg Chase - 3rd line RW
- Mitch Moroz - 4th line LW

If a prospect outside of this list makes the team I'm surprised as hell.

gross. if that's all we have as top end for all these guys, the Oilers are in big trouble. I get that not every player turns out, but there is no way the Oil strike out on all these prospects, not one top line forward or top pairing dman? gross.