Re-Build or Re-Tool?

[VC]

Such poor choices for a poll question, somewhat stupid the you have to be 'for or against' Benning to answer re-tool or rebuild.

Anywho, I'd like a bit of a hybrid of two. Rebuild without moving the likes of the Sedins, Edler, Tanev, Hamhuis. You need to keep some quality you guide the way. Obviously keep the quality youngsters and then go from there.

Of course with owner mandate in place it is re-tool on the fly until voices are heard.

 

[Horse McHindu]

Demo is like 7 years away, there is no point to mention him... At all.

Fair enough, but I never implied otherwise. All I said was that Management needs to ensure that he's in an ideal environment, while taking progressive steps to ensure that he's consistently getting to that next level. Signing Bachman for instance, is a good move that fosters that in my opinion. I also believe that Demko has the potential to be an elite goalie one day.

Lack had 8 games with a sv% below 880, miller had 16, so who was more of a dear in headlights? Lack had a tougher schedule, and a tougher road. 5 of millers wins were against edm. Lack posted a 929 once miller went down.

My deer-in-headlights comment referred to Lack's demeanour/performance in 2014 when Luongo got traded. Before the Luongo deal, Lack also looked impressive in a back-up role.

Don't get me wrong - I am not anti-Lack, and I also agree that he had an extremely solid 2014/2015 regular season (as you point out, the stats indicate this).

However............the 2015 playoffs happened, and we all saw how he performed. Period.

And like I said - Dan Cloutier was also a guy, many moons ago, that had some excellent regular seasons only to be followed by very sub-par playoff performances.

To me, Lack reads like a Dan Cloutier, and given the market of what we saw in this year's draft, I think 30 other GM's feel the same way as I do.

Sure pick random games here and there, don't look at the body of work.

I meant Lack has never been given the chance to mentor.

It's not random games bro. It's a pretty decent sized sample size. I would NOT have been comfortable in signing Eddie Lack to a 4-6 year deal at $4 million. I just wouldn't. I think Benning made the right move here, by not keeping Lack, creating a potential 2013-like goaltending controversy, and risk losing Lack for absolutely nothing at season's end.

 

[Horse McHindu]

You really think Benning will get full value for those guys?

He will get fair market value for whatever those guys are worth. Period. As much as we piss and moan about the lack of value that we received for Lack and Kassian, the truth of the matter is that the interest and market was simply not there. Hence - our return.

On the flip side of that - I don't think many people here expected us to be able to trade Kevin Bieksa (and his entire contract) for a 2nd rounder........but guess what?! We did! 4.6 million cap space off our books. But to quote Roberto Luongo, I don't see anyone "pumping Benning's tires" on that deal.

Also I doubt Hamhius agrees to waive his NTC mid season. This team is royally ****** as long as Benning is GM. He can't manage assets or cap.

Bieksa waived his NTC, so perhaps Hamhuis might as well if Benning chooses to go that route? (although I suspect that the Canucks will keep Hamhuis in Vancouver as a mentor for other defensemen).

Let's at least see how guys like Sbisa, Vey, Baertschi, etc, pan out this year before laying judgement. Lets at least see what Benning does with Vrbata if we're out of the playoff race at the deadline.

When Benning and Linden first came here, they promised two things:

1) A return to the playoffs in 2015
2) A deeper prospect pool.

So far, they have delivered on both of those, and I don't think the mass majority of us envisioned this team making the playoffs this past season.

I don't agree with everything Linden and Benning has done, but lets at least see how things play out before we cast stones on them.

He's a solid drafter but isnt amazing or anything like that. His highest pick so far is looking dissapointing. As far as how we look next year I don't think anyone is to mad because we're taking a step back I believe most are quite aware of that it's just instead of rebuilding like we should were still trying to compete for the playoffs with a old washed up roster while not getting a return for our expiring contracts and trading picks and young players for Brandon ****in Prust. This team is direction less right now. The worst thing you can be in sports is in the NHL is in the middle and it's exactly were Benning is directing this team.

*Way* too premature to pass any sort of judgement on Virtanen.

Attempting a complete rebuild, via tanking, is very risky. For every Chicago Blackhawks that emerge (and they were utter $hite for about a decade by the way), there are far more horror stories out there. Edmonton, Florida, New York Islanders, etc., etc.

The Detroit/San Jose model is the better way to go unfortunately (i.e. a team that, for the most part, consistently makes the playoffs and drafts/develops their prospects well). The NHL is a business, and playoff hockey is what makes an NHL team profitable.

Even if the opportunity cost is drafting 1-3, you have to try and field a team that can make the playoffs each and every year........and hope that you get lucky and draft/develop a guy like Claude Giroux/Patrice Bergeron/Ryan Kesler with later picks/rounds.

 

[racerjoe]

Fair enough, but I never implied otherwise. All I said was that Management needs to ensure that he's in an ideal environment, while taking progressive steps to ensure that he's consistently getting to that next level. Signing Bachman for instance, is a good move that fosters that in my opinion. I also believe that Demko has the potential to be an elite goalie one day.



My deer-in-headlights comment referred to Lack's demeanour/performance in 2014 when Luongo got traded. Before the Luongo deal, Lack also looked impressive in a back-up role.

You mean he looked tired after playing a super heavy load with a team infront of him that had thrown in the towel? In his rookie year where the team was hit with more termoil than at any point this year?

Don't get me wrong - I am not anti-Lack, and I also agree that he had an extremely solid 2014/2015 regular season (as you point out, the stats indicate this).

However............the 2015 playoffs happened, and we all saw how he performed. Period.

Again after playing a heavy workload Lack had a tough period. that was it one bad period. People point to the game before, but he was outstanding, the stats don't show this in the game, but I believe he may have been one of the three stars.

Vs Miller who had a 3 goal lead and let in 6? Or was so bad for a powerhouse blues team the let him go?

And like I said - Dan Cloutier was also a guy, many moons ago, that had some excellent regular seasons only to be followed by very sub-par playoff performances.

To me, Lack reads like a Dan Cloutier, and given the market of what we saw in this year's draft, I think 30 other GM's feel the same way as I do.

Glad you brought up Dan, cause miller gets praised for the exact reasons Clouts did. Look how many wins he had! Until you look at them and see oh 5 were against the Oilers... 911sv% 6 goals in the last game. But sure lets pretend he was good this year.

It's not random games bro. It's a pretty decent sized sample size. I would NOT have been comfortable in signing Eddie Lack to a 4-6 year deal at $4 million. I just wouldn't. I think Benning made the right move here, by not keeping Lack, creating a potential 2013-like goaltending controversy, and risk losing Lack for absolutely nothing at season's end.

Pretty good sample size would be the 921 sv% Lack put up this season, or the 911 last year, when you claimed he was poor, and it was still as good as millers this season. That is a good sample size.

You seem to want to cherry pick singular games. When was Miller better over the last two seasons?

 

[GetFocht]

We retooled last year, got knocked out of the playoffs by a 22 year old rookie (Ferland), now Benning is in full rebuild mode.

 

[Horse McHindu]

You mean he looked tired after playing a super heavy load with a team infront of him that had thrown in the towel? In his rookie year where the team was hit with more termoil than at any point this year?



Again after playing a heavy workload Lack had a tough period. that was it one bad period. People point to the game before, but he was outstanding, the stats don't show this in the game, but I believe he may have been one of the three stars.

Vs Miller who had a 3 goal lead and let in 6? Or was so bad for a powerhouse blues team the let him go?



Glad you brought up Dan, cause miller gets praised for the exact reasons Clouts did. Look how many wins he had! Until you look at them and see oh 5 were against the Oilers... 911sv% 6 goals in the last game. But sure lets pretend he was good this year.



Pretty good sample size would be the 921 sv% Lack put up this season, or the 911 last year, when you claimed he was poor, and it was still as good as millers this season. That is a good sample size.

You seem to want to cherry pick singular games. When was Miller better over the last two seasons?

Fair enough, and you make good points. We will have to agree to disagree for the most part, but let me ask you the following questions:

1) Do you see Eddie Lack becoming an elite goalie in this league? Close to the level of a Jonathan Quick, Henrik Lunquist, Rinne, Dubnyk, Ben Bishop, Corey Schneider, etc.? If NOT - then do you think it makes sense for the Canucks to sign Lack at 4 million per season for 4-6 years? (in knowing that for any team aspiring to be a cup contender one day, your goaltender MUST be elite or close to elite).

2) Out of Lack and Markstrom, which goalie do you think has a higher upside potential?

3) If you are Benning and you are handling the Jacob Markstrom asset, who do you think is a better potential mentor for Markstrom? A veteran goalie that at one point in his career, was an elite goalie in the league, or a 27 year old goalie that has never even had one full season as a starter?

 

[racerjoe]

Fair enough, and you make good points. We will have to agree to disagree for the most part, but let me ask you the following questions:

1) Do you see Eddie Lack becoming an elite goalie in this league? Close to the level of a Jonathan Quick, Henrik Lunquist, Rinne, Dubnyk, Ben Bishop, Corey Schneider, etc.? If NOT - then do you think it makes sense for the Canucks to sign Lack at 4 million per season for 4-6 years? (in knowing that for any team aspiring to be a cup contender one day, your goaltender MUST be elite or close to elite).

2) Out of Lack and Markstrom, which goalie do you think has a higher upside potential?

3) If you are Benning and you are handling the Jacob Markstrom asset, who do you think is a better potential mentor for Markstrom? A veteran goalie that at one point in his career, was an elite goalie in the league, or a 27 year old goalie that has never even had one full season as a starter?

1) those goalies you mentioned aren't all on the same level. Yeah I think he is as good as bishop and dubnyk. But I also didn't see quick becomin elite. People get to caught up in where a player was when they were 18 instead of where they are now.

2)Lack. He has shown much better at professional level of hockey and is still improving.

3)Lack. Who has miller ever mentored? Lack was taught from Lui, who mentored Schneider, he hasn't had a chance to mentor anyone. Even if not I would rather have the two young goalies, than a worse goalie.

 

[Dissonance]

3) If you are Benning and you are handling the Jacob Markstrom asset, who do you think is a better potential mentor for Markstrom? A veteran goalie that at one point in his career, was an elite goalie in the league, or a 27 year old goalie that has never even had one full season as a starter?

But there's just no basis for the idea that goalies need a "mentor" in the NHL to become elite. Henrik Lundqvist never had a mentor. Pekka Rinne never had a mentor. Jonathan Quick never had a mentor unless you want to count one season of Jason LaBarbera.

And, in any case, nothing we saw from Ryan Miller last season suggested he'd be a good mentor, though he'll probably lobby Desjardins to give Markstrom the harder games in back-to-backs.

 

[absolute garbage]

Love it how Dubnyk is considered suddenly elite after being pretty much garbage for the first 4 or so seasons of his career and played last year in the AHL. Or that guys like Rinne and Bishop are mentioned, when Lack achieved more than those guys at his age. Or that you must have now an elite goalie to win a Cup, and conveniently don't even mention guys like Niemi and Crawford who won 3 Cups for Chicago.

I think Lack could be an elite goalie (top 5) in this league for the next 5 years. I think it's more likely that he'll be in the 5-15 range though. In any case he was and would've been the best goalie in this organization for the next half decade.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Love it how Dubnyk is considered suddenly elite after being pretty much garbage for the first 4 or so seasons of his career and played last year in the AHL. Or that guys like Rinne and Bishop are mentioned, when Lack achieved more than those guys at his age. Or that you must have now an elite goalie to win a Cup, and conveniently don't even mention guys like Niemi and Crawford who won 3 Cups for Chicago.

I think Lack could be an elite goalie (top 5) in this league for the next 5 years. I think it's more likely that he'll be in the 5-15 range though. In any case he was and would've been the best goalie in this organization for the next half decade.

Or even Jon Quick who in the regular season hasn't really been all that elite.

 

[Horse McHindu]

I'll try and address everyone's posts/responses to me in this post.

Love it how Dubnyk is considered suddenly elite after being pretty much garbage for the first 4 or so seasons of his career and played last year in the AHL. Or that guys like Rinne and Bishop are mentioned, when Lack achieved more than those guys at his age. Or that you must have now an elite goalie to win a Cup, and conveniently don't even mention guys like Niemi and Crawford who won 3 Cups for Chicago.

I think Lack could be an elite goalie (top 5) in this league for the next 5 years. I think it's more likely that he'll be in the 5-15 range though. In any case he was and would've been the best goalie in this organization for the next half decade.

1) I'll give you Dubynk. He has still lots to prove. But aside from that - do you ever see Lack truly playing like an elite goalie in the playoffs when it matters most?

2) Chicago - Chicago was able to get away with mediocre goaltending due to the fact that they had absolute BEASTS of a team in front. 2009 Pittsburgh was also the same way when most of their stars were on ELC's (while MAF also played like a 'star' that year).

3) Dissonance - mentorship: You're right that a lot of these goalies that eventually became stars, didn't necessarily have 'mentorship', but I don't think it hurts either.

What it ultimately boils down to for me is this: I *don't* think Eddie Lack will ever be an elite goalie in this league, or will ever be a guy that can carry a team in the playoffs when a team needs him the most. I believe Markstrom has more upside and potential than Lack, and should be "ready to take the reigns" once Miller's contract expires in two years. Hence - I believe signing Eddie Lack to what would have been a lengthy contract (4-6 years) would have been a mistake.

 

[Freakshow]

I'll try and address everyone's posts/responses to me in this post.



1) I'll give you Dubynk. He has still lots to prove. But aside from that - do you ever see Lack truly playing like an elite goalie in the playoffs when it matters most?

2) Chicago - Chicago was able to get away with mediocre goaltending due to the fact that they had absolute BEASTS of a team in front. 2009 Pittsburgh was also the same way when most of their stars were on ELC's (while MAF also played like a 'star' that year).

3) Dissonance - mentorship: You're right that a lot of these goalies that eventually became stars, didn't necessarily have 'mentorship', but I don't think it hurts either.

What it ultimately boils down to for me is this: I *don't* think Eddie Lack will ever be an elite goalie in this league, or will ever be a guy that can carry a team in the playoffs when a team needs him the most. I believe Markstrom has more upside and potential than Lack, and should be "ready to take the reigns" once Miller's contract expires in two years. Hence - I believe signing Eddie Lack to what would have been a lengthy contract (4-6 years) would have been a mistake.

I agree with you whole-heartedly, I had no confidence in Lack. Not to say he was bad, because he wasn't, I just didn't see him get much better than he already is. And, I believe, like you, that Markstrom has much more "up-side" than Lack ever had. Probably why Markstrom was drafted so high, and, well you know, Lack wasn't drafted at all.

Yes good players go undrafted all the time, that said, Markstrom has way more physical ability than Lack and he's two years younger. With the proper training and coaching he's had in the past year and a half, along with a much better mental side of the game, I think he's gonna be a good one for the Canucks.

 

[opendoor]

I think Luca Sbisa has more upside than Chris Tanev. Better physical gifts and he was drafted high as opposed to Tanev who went through 2 drafts without anyone deeming him worthy of a pick. I'm sure after 350 games he'll finally figure it out.

 

[Freakshow]

I think Luca Sbisa has more upside than Chris Tanev. Better physical gifts and he was drafted high as opposed to Tanev who went through 2 drafts without anyone deeming him worthy of a pick. I'm sure after 350 games he'll finally figure it out.

Do you feel better now?

 

[KeninsFan]

Such poor choices for a poll question, somewhat stupid the you have to be 'for or against' Benning to answer re-tool or rebuild.

Anywho, I'd like a bit of a hybrid of two. Rebuild without moving the likes of the Sedins, Edler, Tanev, Hamhuis. You need to keep some quality you guide the way. Obviously keep the quality youngsters and then go from there.

Of course with owner mandate in place it is re-tool on the fly until voices are heard.

It makes sense as fans have a much clearer idea of what Benning's vision for this team moving forward is.

A re-tool/rebuild led by Benning has a veteran #1 like Miller and meat and potato 4th liners surrounding the young core while trying to push to become a bubble playoff team.

A re-tool/rebuild led by other GMs would not follow this philosophy, for example fans may be in favour of a rebuild following Yzerman's/Shanahan's vision.

 

[absolute garbage]

I *don't* think Eddie Lack will ever be an elite goalie in this league, or will ever be a guy that can carry a team in the playoffs when a team needs him the most. I believe Markstrom has more upside and potential than Lack, and should be "ready to take the reigns" once Miller's contract expires in two years. Hence - I believe signing Eddie Lack to what would have been a lengthy contract (4-6 years) would have been a mistake.

Lack already outplayed Luongo and Miller here, and carried this team to playoffs with excellent, elite play. There's zero reason to believe he wouldn't be an above average, cheap starter that was capable of winning the Cup with the right team. Oh, and it's completely ridiculous to talk about his playoffs with this sample size.

The thing is, here on HF a lot of fans thought Schneider was never going to be elite either. Remember the goal he let against LA on OT that eliminated us? Terrible playoff goalie that will never win anything! Fact is a lot of fans still preferred Luongo and disagreed heavily with AV's decision to start Schneider even if everything that made sense indicated that Schneider is clearly the superior goalie. I'm guessing you would've been in that group aswell.

But ultimately, it's your opinion that you base on how good Lack and Markstrom were when they were 18, and what their hype has been since. In my opinion, when these guys are now aged 25-27 with a lot of professional experience on their resume, that's an extremely dumb opinion to have. You might be right but I definitely would not bet money on it.

I think Luca Sbisa has more upside than Chris Tanev. Better physical gifts and he was drafted high as opposed to Tanev who went through 2 drafts without anyone deeming him worthy of a pick. I'm sure after 350 games he'll finally figure it out.

Yeah, that's basically the Lack's potential vs Markstrom's potential argument in a nutshell. Not quite obviously as goalies have a bit longer cooking period but it's still true.

 

[ginner classic]

I think Luca Sbisa has more upside than Chris Tanev. Better physical gifts and he was drafted high as opposed to Tanev who went through 2 drafts without anyone deeming him worthy of a pick. I'm sure after 350 games he'll finally figure it out.

You forgot to put the smiley there

 

[Freakshow]

It makes sense as fans have a much clearer idea of what Benning's vision for this team moving forward is.

A re-tool/rebuild led by Benning has a veteran #1 like Miller and meat and potato 4th liners surrounding the young core while trying to push to become a bubble playoff team.

A re-tool/rebuild led by other GMs would not follow this philosophy, for example fans may be in favour of a rebuild following Yzerman's/Shanahan's vision.

They've been saying generally since the season ended now what their vision is, have you not been listening? They're going to transition this team to a younger, faster more physical version. How much more can they explain it to you? Do you think they're gonna just lay it out to the media or post a full page add in the newspaper word for word?

They're going to do it over time as they have a lot of things to deal with, such as NTC's, other teams Cap situations, kids that currently may or may not be ready, a clear generational gap from previous GM's poor draft record, etc. etc. This is not a video game, they're dealing with real people here.

Benning and Linden gave them a chance to prove themselves last year, the veteran core wanted a chance to redeem themselves and prove they could still win, he gave it to them. They failed. So when the playoffs happened I believe they saw what needed to be done and now they're going to attempt to do it.

I don't know if Benning is gonna be a good GM or not, he's obviously got some learning to do in that regard, however, this is gonna take some time to do because they clearly have no intentions of going the full-blown "scorch the earth rebuild" that the Oiler did....nor should they. That was unintentional by the way of utter incompetence from ownership down to general manager.

 

[Bobs your uncle]

Core is aging but until the twins contracts expire it will be continued spiralling down until flush.
Then the team can truly rebuild.

 

[KeninsFan]

They've been saying generally since the season ended now what their vision is, have you not been listening? They're going to transition this team to a younger, faster more physical version. How much more can they explain it to you? Do you think they're gonna just lay it out to the media or post a full page add in the newspaper word for word?

They're going to do it over time as they have a lot of things to deal with, such as NTC's, other teams Cap situations, kids that currently may or may not be ready, a clear generational gap from previous GM's poor draft record, etc. etc. This is not a video game, they're dealing with real people here.

Benning and Linden gave them a chance to prove themselves last year, the veteran core wanted a chance to redeem themselves and prove they could still win, he gave it to them. They failed. So when the playoffs happened I believe they saw what needed to be done and now they're going to attempt to do it.

I don't know if Benning is gonna be a good GM or not, he's obviously got some learning to do in that regard, however, this is gonna take some time to do because they clearly have no intentions of going the full-blown "scorch the earth rebuild" that the Oiler did....nor should they. That was unintentional by the way of utter incompetence from ownership down to general manager.

I don't care what they say, they already have Linden working as a PR shill.

I care about the moves they make. I'm not a fan of their pro-scouting, their ability to get value in trades or their roster decisions.

I believe the team would be better served re-tooling under new management.

 

[ginner classic]

Sedin Sedin Vrbata
Virtanen Bonino Burrows
Higgins Horvat Hansen
Prust Vey Dorsett
Baertschi

Edler Tanev
Hamhuis Weber
Sbisa Corrado
Bartkowski Clendening

Miller
Markstrom

Is it just me or is that projected lineup not actually older than the 23 guys we broke camp with last year?

Bieksa to Corrado (-11)
Lack to Markstrom (-1)
Richardson to Virtanen (-10)
Matthias to Baertschi (-3)
Stanton to Bartkowski (+3)
Kassian to Prust (+8)
Sestito to Clendening (-5)

Everyone else is +1 year older (+16)

Edit....nope.....if Virtanen beats out Kenins we got younger by 1.5 months. If Kenins geta the spot we are older by .5 months. Essentially we should break camp at pretty much the exact same average age as last year barring any more moves.

 

[Freakshow]

I don't care what they say, they already have Linden working as a PR shill.

I care about the moves they make. I'm not a fan of their pro-scouting, their ability to get value in trades or their roster decisions.

I believe the team would be better served re-tooling under new management.

What qualifies you to form that opinion?

 

[KeninsFan]

What qualifies you to form that opinion?

If you're looking for "qualified" people to give you opinions on Canucks related matters then you should check out some of Linden's pressers.

I'm sure you'll like what you hear.

 

[Seventy7]

How bout both rebuild and retool...

thats where I see us going. Its possible that every veteran not named Sedin will be gone withing 2 years.

Im hoping they move Hammer at the deadline for a 1st+ and resign him in the offseason, along with one of Seabrook, Yandle, Byufglien, etc.. Vrbata is big time deadline bait that will render us either a 1st or a picks prospect bundle. If Jones is struggling in SJ and Markstrom is trending forward, perhaps theres a deal there.

Id bet that Burrows, Higgins, and Hansen will all be gone by the 2016 season, perhaps much earlier.

Im not sure what else the club can do to constitute a rebuild, but they WILL be turning over the roster with the exception of Danny, Hank, Edler, and Tanev. Id bet that any other veteran will be added by UFA to our young kids wholl fill out the rest of the roster and become the future core.

Burrows wi

 

[Fat Tony]

What qualifies you to form that opinion?

You should quote the entire forum and ask that question.