ranking the best hockey leagues

[Ciccarelli]

As for CHL when it comes to comparing the leagues, it is absolutely on the top of the list, as a tool. Yet, not perfect what so ever. For instance Tappara and Lukko, the teams still in the CHL playoffs are 8th and 12th respectively in Liiga standings currently. So in no shape or form the best Liiga teams at the moment.

 

[Albatros]

See that's where you are wrong. In saying that there are 3-5 guys that will become international stars. That's the case for leagues like the NLA and DEL that have little to no own player production, just washed up imports. With Liiga you must atleast multuoly that number with ten.

We can look at the top 10 Liiga scorers from five years ago (age at the time) and where they are now:

Henrik Haapala (22 yo.) 15+45=60 (Jokerit, KHL)
Veli-Matti Savinainen (30 yo.) 30+26=56 (Jokerit, KHL)
Mika Pyörälä (35 yo.) 26+29=55 (Kärpät, Liiga)
Tomi Kallio (39 yo.) 20+30=50 (retired)
Ville Vahalahti (39 yo.) 14+33=47 (retired)
Vili Sopanen (29 yo.) 20+26=46 (retired)
Antti Suomela (22 yo.) 22+23=45 (Toronto Marlies, AHL)
Erik Thorell (24 yo.) 24+20=44 (Sparta Praha, Czechia)
Juhani Tyrväinen (26 yo.) 14+29=43 (Luleå, SHL)
Jaakko Rissanen (27 yo.) 9+34=43 (KalPa, Liiga)

Not really all that impressive, and the league is worse now than it was back then.

Best U20 players likewise:

Otto Koivula (18 yo.) 10+20=30 (Bridgeport Islanders, AHL)
Aleksi Saarela (19 yo.) 15+13=28 (Langnau Tigers, NLA)
Jerry Turkulainen (18 yo.) 9+17=26 (JYP, Liiga)
Robin Salo (18 yo.) 1+15=16 (Bridgeport Islanders, AHL)
Miro Heiskanen (17 yo.) 5+5=10 (Dallas Stars, NHL)
Otto Leskinen (19 yo.) 2+8=10 (Jokerit, KHL)
Jarkko Parikka (19 yo.) 1+9=10 (Ilves, Liiga)
Eetu Luostarinen (18 yo.) 3+4=7 (Florida Panthers, NHL)
Joona Luoto (19 yo.) 5+1=6 (Tappara, Liiga)
Urho Vaakanainen (17 yo.) 2+4=6 (Providence Bruins, AHL)

Heiskanen is a legit star in the NHL, and Luostarinen has become a solid roster player. But neither of them could contribute much as teenagers at the time. Two of the three young players that did contribute could subsequently also take the next step, but not to the highest level.

Also, imagine thinking that the amount of young up and coming stars do nothing to raise the level of Liiga, but the literally hand full of finns are the game breaker in favor of NLA..
Besides, infact, they are not better in NLA. I'll take guys like Innala, Koivistoinen, Kemell and Nurmi over senior like Pesonen and Rajala every day of the week and twice on sundays. Guys like Kontiola and Palola are Liigas version of Rajala and Pesonen. Decent, older guys.

Decent older guys with 2151 games of NHL experience, several World Champions among them and one Stanley Cup too. Filppula is past it obviously, but Vatanen and Rajala are only 30. Saarela is 24. To suggest that 17-year-olds and draft rejects (well, Nurmi 163rd overall) are better is absurd.

Pretty weak if thats your only argument ("better imports" and belittleing the fact that Liiga is on a whole other level as a development league). Dont even get me started on the level of coaching and domestic players. I am not holding my breath waiting for Switzerland to start winning gold medals from left and right internationally using only swiss coaches and players from the NLA.

One can question whether Liiga is still a serious professional league if it's main role is to act as a developmental league akin to junior competitions. In Switzerland there are many prominent foreign coaches like Grönborg and McTavish, but I don't see how that would be a weakness. Likewise native Swiss players with NHL experience like Brunner, Weber, Müller, Malgin, Díaz, Berra, Andrighetto are more prominent than about anyone in Liiga.

As for Barach I spesifically wanted to bring him up here as an example of a guy that you would be little, but who is infact a better import than many of the washed up guys in NLA and DEL. He is an up and coming guy, with future ahead of him, not behind. The next Justin Danforth, who I am sure you wouldve overlooked aswell when he firts cane to Finland.

Would be great if he can salvage his career, but he has a long way to go still before he can be mentioned in the same sentence for example with those Swiss players above.

 

[Ciccarelli]

We can look at the top 10 Liiga scorers from five years ago (age at the time) and where they are now:

Henrik Haapala (22 yo.) 15+45=60 (Jokerit, KHL)
Veli-Matti Savinainen (30 yo.) 30+26=56 (Jokerit, KHL)
Mika Pyörälä (35 yo.) 26+29=55 (Kärpät, Liiga)
Tomi Kallio (39 yo.) 20+30=50 (retired)
Ville Vahalahti (39 yo.) 14+33=47 (retired)
Vili Sopanen (29 yo.) 20+26=46 (retired)
Antti Suomela (22 yo.) 22+23=45 (Toronto Marlies, AHL)
Erik Thorell (24 yo.) 24+20=44 (Sparta Praha, Czechia)
Juhani Tyrväinen (26 yo.) 14+29=43 (Luleå, SHL)
Jaakko Rissanen (27 yo.) 9+34=43 (KalPa, Liiga)

Not really all that impressive, and the league is worse now than it was back then.

Best U20 players likewise:

Otto Koivula (18 yo.) 10+20=30 (Bridgeport Islanders, AHL)
Aleksi Saarela (19 yo.) 15+13=28 (Langnau Tigers, NLA)
Jerry Turkulainen (18 yo.) 9+17=26 (JYP, Liiga)
Robin Salo (18 yo.) 1+15=16 (Bridgeport Islanders, AHL)
Miro Heiskanen (17 yo.) 5+5=10 (Dallas Stars, NHL)
Otto Leskinen (19 yo.) 2+8=10 (Jokerit, KHL)
Jarkko Parikka (19 yo.) 1+9=10 (Ilves, Liiga)
Eetu Luostarinen (18 yo.) 3+4=7 (Florida Panthers, NHL)
Joona Luoto (19 yo.) 5+1=6 (Tappara, Liiga)
Urho Vaakanainen (17 yo.) 2+4=6 (Providence Bruins, AHL)

Heiskanen is a legit star in the NHL, and Luostarinen has become a solid roster player. But neither of them could contribute much as teenagers at the time. Two of the three young players that did contribute could subsequently also take the next step, but not to the highest level.



Decent older guys with 2151 games of NHL experience, several World Champions among them and one Stanley Cup too. Filppula is past it obviously, but Vatanen and Rajala are only 30. Saarela is 24. To suggest that 17-year-olds and draft rejects (well, Nurmi 163rd overall) are better is absurd.



One can question whether Liiga is still a serious professional league if it's main role is to act as a developmental league akin to junior competitions. In Switzerland there are many prominent foreign coaches like Grönborg and McTavish, but I don't see how that would be a weakness. Likewise native Swiss players with NHL experience like Brunner, Weber, Müller, Malgin, Díaz, Berra, Andrighetto are more prominent than about anyone in Liiga.



Would be great if he can salvage his career, but he has a long way to go still before he can be mentioned in the same sentence for example with those Swiss players above.

1. You literally took the year you thought would fit your agenda best, yet that list of players isn't any worse than ylud find from the NLA.

2. That is a top ten, plenty of good NHLers/KHLerd if you browse further.

3. I actually think the top10 of this season is more impressive than the one you displayed. Doesnt fit your narrative of the Liiga drastically getting worse every year very well does It now.

4. You are throwing your own opinions on which player is better than the other, all though its a matter of opinion. I take Innala and Levtchi you take Brunner and Rajala. OK..?

I think I established what I wanted here. Carry on.

 

[Albatros]

I didn't even check any other year but 5 years ago. But if you think it's an anomaly compared to some more recent year you're of course free to construct a counterargument.

This year's top ten is again full of players that already failed somewhere else. Jašek had no future in the AHL. Palmu didn't even make the AHL and was mediocre in the DEL. Smejkal played junior hockey in North America but didn't get drafted, subsequently didn't make it in the KHL either. Kangasniemi went to the second-tier Allsvenskan and flopped there. Mäenalanen got his big chance in the NHL as well as the AHL and didn't make it, subsequently also failed in the KHL.

Left are Levtchi, Merelä, Pitkänen, and Koivistoinen who all went undrafted and have only played in Finland, as well as Niemelä (Leafs 3rd round pick) who seems like a good if undersized prospect. One out of ten I would therefore describe as an exciting player to follow.

 

[Ciccarelli]

I didn't even check any other year but 5 years ago. But if you think it's an anomaly compared to some more recent year you're of course free to construct a counterargument.

This year's top ten is again full of players that already failed somewhere else. Jašek had no future in the AHL. Palmu didn't even make the AHL and was mediocre in the DEL. Smejkal played junior hockey in North America but didn't get drafted, subsequently didn't make it in the KHL either. Kangasniemi went to the second-tier Allsvenskan and flopped there. Mäenalanen got his big chance in the NHL as well as the AHL and didn't make it, subsequently also failed in the KHL.

Left are Levtchi, Merelä, Pitkänen, and Koivistoinen who all went undrafted and have only played in Finland, as well as Niemelä (Leafs 3rd round pick) who seems like a good if undersized prospect. One out of ten I would therefore describe as an exciting player to follow.

You've made your agenda pretty clear here. Cherry picking 10 game sample sizes (Kangasniemi), using more than 5 years old stats when rating a 26 year old, now a constant figure in Czech national team (Smejkal). Belittleing a almost PPG AHL'er and EHT-level player (Jasek). Saku Mäenalanen a staple in team Finland. To be clear, again, I am not comparing Liiga to the KHL or even SHL, those are a tier above, but to league like NLA, DEL and Extraliga (all in which many of the top guys are NHL and KHL flops, otherwise they wouldn't be there). I could, ofcourse, aswell bring up guys like Grenier (very mediocre AHL'er) or Olofsson (Ok SHL'er) topping the NLA scoring, but I actually give the benefit of a doubt for players to develop their game even at an older age (courtesy that you wont give for players such as Smejkal).

The biggest argument used when trying to put Liiga down, is the level of imports. When better way to assess this than take a look at the the imports from the previous season and see how they are doing now elsewhere (not including the few NHL loans)

Russia:
Alexander Yakovenko at eliteprospects.com A good offensive dman in Liiga. One of the highest scoring dmen in NLA

Canada:
Daniel Audette at eliteprospects.com Top Liiga player. Top KHL'er.
Jesse Graham at eliteprospects.com 0,5 PPG dman in Liiga. PPG in DEL.
Ty Rattie at eliteprospects.com Flop in Liiga. PPG in SHL.
https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/11887/brandon-yip Flop in Liiga. Top scorers in his KHL team

Czech Rebuplic:
https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/190265/lukas-klok Good dman in Liiga. One of the highest scoring dmen in KHL
https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/115708/libor-sulak Disappointing Liiga season. Better one in KHL
https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/199564/michael-spacek Fired from his Liiga team. Top scorer in SHL
https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/157524/filip-chlapik Okay in Liiga. Dominating Extraliga.

Sweden:
https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/20063/patrik-karlkvist Flop in Liiga. Top scorer in the SHL.
https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/212688/jakob-stenqvist and https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/36616/robin-press Top Liiga dmen. Production dropped in the KHL, but still leading their D.

USA:
https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/12382/ryan-lasch Top scorer in Liiga. Top scorer in the SHL.
https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/151452/trevor-mingoia PPG in Liiga. PPG in DEL.
https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/197800/jeremy-bracco Good Liiga player. Dominant in DEL.
https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/121863/austin-ortega Liiga flop. PPG in DEL.

Slovakia:
https://www.eliteprospects.com/player/51191/michal-kristof OK Liiga player. PPG in Extraliga.

Nothing to worry about the import in Liiga. We are just fine.

 

[Albatros]

Swiss NL being comfortably above Liiga is general consensus, not "my agenda".

 

[Ciccarelli]

Swiss NL being comfortably above Liiga is general consensus, not "my agenda".

Definitely not, as it would be a false statement.

But as arguing finnish hockey versus swiss is pretty ludacris (and something as meaningless as the domestic league levels when we should be discussing the hockey programs in general, success in international play in all ages. Better yet, Olympics. How do you fancy your chances there against Finland?), I'll just leave this here, your arguments debunked.

 

[Albatros]

Having 150-200 top players overseas does nothing to elevate the domestic league, on the contrary.

 

[Ciccarelli]

Having 150-200 top players overseas does nothing to elevate the domestic league, on the contrary.

Nor does it matter in this context whatsoever since Switzerland and Germany lack those 150-200 (at the very least) players alltogether. On contrary, I think it speaks volumes of Liigas power when it comes to developing talent. We have been waiting for what, 20 years now for Switzerland and NLA to start producing elite talent, with little to no success. I am not holding my breath. The level of play and coaching is simple not high enough, young swiss players should look at coming to Sweden and Finland at a very young age (as the slovaks and czechs are doing). One good special team unit per team is not high enough calibre. The level sinks so low in the 3rd and 4th lines (where the swiss youngsters play) that it is very much comparable to the finnish 2nd tier, Mestis. Not good enough to actually develop players for the NHL and international play.

 

[Albatros]

There are a lot of good hockey players in Switzerland and Germany, the difference in depth on the top is certainly not 200 players. Regarding junior production and coaching, also prominent non-Swiss players like Auston Matthews, Nikolaj Ehlers, Marco Rossi, and Elvis Merzļikins played in Switzerland besides domestic NHL stars.

 

[Ciccarelli]

There are a lot of good hockey players in Switzerland and Germany, the difference in depth on the top is certainly not 200 players. Regarding junior production and coaching, also prominent non-Swiss players like Auston Matthews, Nikolaj Ehlers, Marco Rossi, and Elvis Merzļikins played in Switzerland besides domestic NHL stars.

Matthews used the NLA just as a quick money grab a teenager, Ehlers played 11 games in the NLA. Don't know how those guys are relevant here, but very telling that those are the best examples. NLA is a good place to go and get your last good pay check for guys that have already given up on their NHL dream. Some top guys might give it a shot at the KHL, but not many success stories, Harri Pesonen comes to mind. Browsing through the top 100 of scoring, very few possible future NHL'ers (or even KHL'ers!) pop up. I hope Saarela gets another chance in the NHL, but his decision to go to Switzerland seems like a very weak move. Easy money grab, possible head case..?

Not super relevant, but the NLA is super lowly regarded in general in Finland. Many remember the 10+ year old broadcasts on a free sports channel, where NLA was on every week (pretty weird come to think of it). The general consensus was, that the top players (imports) are very skilled, but the quality drastically drops after the first line (as still is very much the case, becose of the import cap and week domestic player production). Also the style of play was very beer league like, finnish 3rd tier teams had better systems. It seemed more like an sircus act for people to come and watch while they drink beer in the stands than a professional sports event. Having watched some NLA play recently I still get the very same vibe.

 

[Fjorden]

Swiss NL being comfortably above Liiga is general consensus, not "my agenda".

Finland had a team of mainly Liiga players in 2019 and become world champions.

I would say swiss NL has a lot of great imports better than Liiga, but the local homegrown players are not as good as those in Liiga. Swiss NL also has this rule with only 4 imports limiting the quality of the teams. But I've read they will increase that number next season, that will of course increase the quality of their league.

 

[Eye of Ra]

Finland had a team of mainly Liiga players in 2019 and become world champions.

I would say swiss NL has a lot of great imports better than Liiga, but the local homegrown players are not as good as those in Liiga. Swiss NL also has this rule with only 4 imports limiting the quality of the teams. But I've read they will increase that number next season, that will of course increase the quality of their league.

Sweden become world champoions in 2006 with a team of mainly SHL players. So its nothing new.

Sweden at eliteprospects.com

 

[Ciccarelli]

Sweden become world champoions in 2006 with a team of mainly SHL players. So its nothing new.

Sweden at eliteprospects.com

Not to question your comprehension, but that how has that anything to do with the topic at hand? Which is Liiga vs. NLA. No one here is saying that either of those is above SHL.

 

[Eye of Ra]

Not to question your comprehension, but that how has that anything to do with the topic at hand? Which is Liiga vs. NLA. No one here is saying that either of those is above SHL.

I know, was just pointing it out.

SHL is better than Liiga and NLA but not by much. Its very close leagues.

 

[Ciccarelli]

I know, was just pointing it out.

SHL is better than Liiga and NLA but not by much. Its very close leagues.

I'd day on paper the top teams are some what close, but SHL teams have been so much better on the CHL that it needs to be regarder alot better. They have been so dominant. Bottom teams are also more competitive in the SHL than Liiga and NLA. Thanks to the best second tier league in Europe, Allsvenskan. Which is a good league on it's own. I'd say very similar to ICEHL. Finland could possible do something similar, drop 3 teams to Mestis and open the League, but the teams are too afraid to do that. Mestis has been totally killed.

 

[Albatros]

Matthews used the NLA just as a quick money grab a teenager, Ehlers played 11 games in the NLA. Don't know how those guys are relevant here, but very telling that those are the best examples.

The best players to come to Finland would be Texier and Georgiyev, after them mostly crickets. It's not like Liiga is winning here.

 

[Ciccarelli]

The best players to come to Finland would be Texier and Georgiyev, after them mostly crickets. It's not like Liiga is winning here.

Not that I would think that this is overly relevant since the KHL is probably the only league in Europe where the amount of imports moving the to NHL is somewhat significant, but you are, ofcourse, once again going for the massive downplaying of Liiga (cherry picking stats, downplaying proven players, outright lying, using different criterias for player development to fit your agenda).

Assuming by the names you used for NLA, we are counting imports that used that respective league (Liiga or NLA) as a stepping stone to achieve NHL. You mentioning Ehlers frames it to the past ten seasons, and the first NHL game does not need to be the very next season.

Here's what I found (excluding the lockout season and loans from last season):

John Klinberg
Yohann Auvitu
Borna Rendulic
Nikolai Goldobin
Jakub Nakladal
Alexandar Georgiyev
Libor Sulak
Alexandre Texier
Lukas Dostal
Daniil Tarasov
Justin Danforth

So, as mentioned not a very long list (not very relevant either, what is relevant is the amount of domestic player developed for the NHL play from each league, I'm sure you would rather not go there), point was to prove the fact that you try to alter the facts, which are easy to check, but I'm sure many don't have the time or interest so would just go by your false information. I honestly probably even missed quite a few names, since I just browsed through the scorers and didn't obviously click open every link.

BTW. Marco Rossi has played one (1) career game in the NLA and zero (0) in the NHL, which I just learned. Expanding the criteria by that wide of a margin the list of players from Liiga would expand significantly (from Liiga to a NHL organisation).

 

[Albatros]

Sure we can look at Klingberg for one. Was loaned to Jokerit for a couple of months ten years ago before going to Sweden mid-season. Since then the team left the league altogether and opted to play in the KHL instead, creating another roster of players that no Liiga team can attract or afford. To make things worse Liiga took in multiple second-league teams to replace them which has done a lot to tank the level even further. From Jokerit to Jukurit one can say.

Marco Rossi opted to play in Switzerland since he was 10 years old and that made him a 9th overall draft pick in last year's draft. I think it's clear that junior coaching at major Swiss clubs is about as good as anywhere.

 

[Ciccarelli]

Sure we can look at Klingberg for one. Was loaned to Jokerit for a couple of months ten years ago before going to Sweden mid-season..

Meanwhile Auston Matthews super important and relevant to the discussion of developing players

Which swiss teams CHL game are you going to tune in this evening btw? Oh wait...

 

[Albatros]

Like Rossi, Auston Matthews came to Switzerland on his own because he thought it's the right step forward in his career. And it was. If you want a first overall with roots in Switzerland look at Nico Hischier. I don't think there's any reason to doubt the quality of Swiss junior development.

 

[Hasa92]

Even thought Finnish hockey in general is stronger than ever it's really sad to see how hard our national league has fallen.

 

[Fjorden]

Even thought Finnish hockey in general is stronger than ever it's really sad to see how hard our national league has fallen.

Has it fallen so much.

SHL and KHL have always been better than SM Liiga.

Liiga slightly better than NL and czech extraliga but the gap is small between those three.
DEL is the league that has improved most the later years, and close to Liiga in level now.

 

[Albatros]

I wouldn't say that the DEL has taken any giant leap forward, mostly steady improvement over the years. If it has left Liiga behind it's mainly because of Liiga's own decline.

 

[Hasa92]

Has it fallen so much.

SHL and KHL have always been better than SM Liiga.

Liiga slightly better than NL and czech extraliga but the gap is small between those three.
DEL is the league that has improved most the later years, and close to Liiga in level now.

I'm talking about a time way before KHL tho, late 90's & early 00's back then the debate was which league was the second strongest league after NHL and Sm-Liiga was in that conversation back then. Nowadays Liiga might not be even among the top 5.