Fitzy
Very Stable Genius
- Jan 29, 2009
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The issue is its not good value to pick goalies early. Talbot Shesty and Lundqvist> Cloutier Blackburn and Lindbom
Prospect Info: Rangers Prospect Thread (Player Stats/Info in Post #1; Updated 1.12.21)
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The issue is its not good value to pick goalies early. Talbot Shesty and Lundqvist> Cloutier Blackburn and Lindbom
Joey Bones
***** 2k16
Blackburn was turning into something special, though...
But there's only one good egg in a whole heap of others that turned into nothing. Halverson is another 2nd rounder that never panned out.
eco's bones
Registered User
Richter was a 2nd. John Davidson was a 1st by the Blues. Traded Ted Irvine, Jerry Butler and Glen Sather for him.
I'll agree about using 1st round picks on goalies, especially high ones, but, if you exclude the first round picks, between 2000 and 2015 we spent two 2nd round picks, one 4th round pick, two 5th round picks, two 6th round picks, and two 7th round picks on goalies and got Lundqvist and Shesterkin, who are both extremely valuable players, out of it. I'd argue that is actually really good value for those picks.
JCProdigy
Registered User
Goalies are odd and where to draft them is as well.
I mean Hellebuyck, Kiprusoff, and Ryan Miller were all drafted in the 5th, Rinne in the 8th, Lundqvist in the 7th, and Bobrovsky wasn't even drafted and they all are on the list of Vezina trophy winners since the lockout.
....then again Vasilevskiy, Price, Rask, and Brodeur were all first round picks and they too were all Vezina trophy winners since the lockout.
So who is going to win the 2028 Vezina trophy? It's either gonna be Yaroslav Askarov or Huge Ole Ass.
I mean Hellebuyck, Kiprusoff, and Ryan Miller were all drafted in the 5th, Rinne in the 8th, Lundqvist in the 7th, and Bobrovsky wasn't even drafted and they all are on the list of Vezina trophy winners since the lockout.
....then again Vasilevskiy, Price, Rask, and Brodeur were all first round picks and they too were all Vezina trophy winners since the lockout.
So who is going to win the 2028 Vezina trophy? It's either gonna be Yaroslav Askarov or Huge Ole Ass.
This was my post on goalies from the Garand thread:
kovazub94
Enigmatic
- Aug 5, 2010
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IMO, the key to finding a goalie is a number of times you roll your dice drafting a goalie, not “quality” of a pick. I don’t get as upset as many when goalie is picked with a 3rd or 2nd rounder but I’d be happier if they took two goalies with later round picks instead of one but higher.
kovazub94
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The lesson is probably manage your goalie pool better to not be in situations where you need to take a goalie high.
Amazing Kreiderman
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- Apr 11, 2011
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Quick update on Henriksson, he's out with the flu, and not a healthy scratch the last 2 games.
They expect him back soon though
They expect him back soon though
Shesty has played 13 games in the NHL. Like him a lot, but a bit too early to make such claims, no? The Henke pick is once in a lifetime utter homerun. Not even the exception to the rule but the exception to the exception to the exception to the rule.
I do believe in not taking goalies early, but if Askarov was available with the Rangers 2nd first round pick, it would have been an absolute no brainer. Cloutier was a legit NHL goalie. Citing Blackburn and Lindbom is fairly disingenuous as one's very promising career was ended by an injury and ones has, at least to-date, been held up due to injuries. Goalies that are taken later in the draft are not somehow magically more immune to injuries than those taken early.
Sure.. But does anyone remember who Alex Lituniemi (taken with the very next pick) was? Has Haydn Fleury turned into anything (7th OA)? Jayce Hawryluk? The point being is that busts happen in the draft early, late and often.
Want to point to Campbell? Fine. But then I can point to Samsonov & Vasiliesky. For every Montoya, there's a Carey Price.
Again, not saying that I would want to take a goalie early, but it is far from an anathema and forwards and defenseman quite often bust as well.
Lindbom didn't start.
Ragnarsson isn't on the score sheet.
Tarnstrom the 1C for the J20 team, scoreless after one period.
Rykov has a secondary assist.
Reunanen was scoreless in 24:58.
Pajuniemi didn't play.
Ragnarsson isn't on the score sheet.
Tarnstrom the 1C for the J20 team, scoreless after one period.
Rykov has a secondary assist.
Reunanen was scoreless in 24:58.
Pajuniemi didn't play.
Joey Bones
***** 2k16
Well, that's obvious. The draft is a complete crapshoot. The conversation was on taking risks with keepers that don't seem so sure-fire to start. It seems more fit to grab keepers in the 3rd or later unless those keepers have proven a higher skillset (ala Price, Vasilevskiy, Askarov, 2021's Wallstedt). It's way riskier to take a goalie in the 1st two rounds, than other forwards or defenders.
For example, let's take a look into this decade (not counting 2018-2020 drafts, too early to tell)...
- 2017 had 2 goalies go in the top 61. Both haven't done much to solidify any NHL career, but the jury is still out on them (Oettinger and Luukkonen).
- 2016 had 4 goalies go in the top 61. The only one to become anything truly stellar was Hart. Parsons, Fitzpatrick, and Gustavsson have done nothing to even gain any AHL accolades.
- 2015 had 2 goalies go in the top 61 and both have become capable starters (Samsonov and Blackwood).
- 2014 had 5 goalies go in the top 61. One can still become an NHL starter in Demko. Nedeljkovic and Vanecek are backup tweeners or AHL starters. The others are busts (McDonald and Halverson).
- 2013 had 4 goalies go in the top 61. One is a mediocre starter now in Jarry. The others are busts (Fucale, Desrosiers and Comrie). *Which is a bit surprising that Fucale never worked out*.
- 2012 had 4 goalies go in the top 61. Vasilevskiy is arguably the best goalie in the NHL right now, but Subban is barely a starter and could be argued on his backup capabilities. Dansk and Stolarz are backup tweeners or AHL starters.
- 2011 had 3 goalies go in the top 61. John Gibson is a capable starter with some All-Star quality, but Christopher Gibson is a backup tweener or AHL starter. Hellberg, even though I think can be a capable NHL backup, is a bust at this point and will continue in the KHL.
- Lastly, 2010 had 4 goalies go in the top 61. Pickard was shortly a starter/backup, but quickly declined into a tweener or AHL starter. Campbell is barely a backup. Visentin and Simpson busted hard.
So when given that lot, I'm looking at 6 keepers that are indeed worthy of their starting jobs (Vasilevskiy, J. Gibson, Hart, Samsonov, Blackwood, and mediocre Jarry) and three that could become something (Oettinger, Demko, and Luukkonen). The rest is fodder for depth. So with 6 out of 28 goalies (not counting the 3 potentials), it's 21% for a team grabbing a capable starter within the first two rounds selected. So it's not ideal to take a keeper that early when there are forwards and defensemen that could have a better chance to make a team at a higher percentage. With this said, context does matter. So when there is a keeper available like Vasilevskiy or Askarov or 2021's Wallstedt even, a team would be stupid not to take them. These players have already shown massive progress in their pre-draft years and will see through a less difficult path towards the NHL.
Fair enough. And that was my point. It is one thing to have a guideline, but one needs to be careful not to let it become dogma.
eco's bones
Registered User
The thing with the Antoine Lafleur 2007 2nd round pick--that was not a very deep draft. The first really significant pick after Lafleur was taken at 48 was Wayne Simmonds at 62. Also there was only goalie after Lafleur who played more than 100 games and that was Scott Darling.
I also kind of look at it this way---if you're going to go through the exercise of looking back and redrafting a draft then goaltenders are players most likely to rise. That said looking at our goalies of recent note they were all pretty much taken where they should have been commensurate with the accomplishments they had made to that point in their careers--that including Henrik who was relatively an unknown quantity and Igor who was beginning to show more. Huska was a Slovakian playing for Green Bay in the USHL-Wall playing in the OJHL and Garand doing very well in the WHL. Lindbom was making a bit more noise and made the Hockey News draft review. As of now I don't have much faith that Huska's going to make it and Lindbom has been injured more than healthy the last couple years.
I also kind of look at it this way---if you're going to go through the exercise of looking back and redrafting a draft then goaltenders are players most likely to rise. That said looking at our goalies of recent note they were all pretty much taken where they should have been commensurate with the accomplishments they had made to that point in their careers--that including Henrik who was relatively an unknown quantity and Igor who was beginning to show more. Huska was a Slovakian playing for Green Bay in the USHL-Wall playing in the OJHL and Garand doing very well in the WHL. Lindbom was making a bit more noise and made the Hockey News draft review. As of now I don't have much faith that Huska's going to make it and Lindbom has been injured more than healthy the last couple years.
Good games in Sweden about to get underway.
Henriksson/Frolunda hosts Lundkvist/Lulea. Henriksson is listed as the 4LW to start. 9:15 puck drop.
Edstrom going against Skelleftea. Edstrom is the 4LW. Starts at 9:15.
Sjalin is the 1LD against Farjestads. Also 9:15.
In Allsvenskan, Linbom is preliminarily listed as the starter as Mora is at Kristianstads. Start in ten minutes or so.
Ollas/Linkoping J20 had games scheduled for today and tomorrow morning, but they're no longer on the schedule so I assume they were canceled/postponed and now they're going 10 days without games. If you see the calendar I post and it ends up being inaccurate, this is often why. I put it together at the beginning of the week but it changes frequently.
Pajuniemi has a game but he is not listed in the lineup, still injured.
Henriksson/Frolunda hosts Lundkvist/Lulea. Henriksson is listed as the 4LW to start. 9:15 puck drop.
Edstrom going against Skelleftea. Edstrom is the 4LW. Starts at 9:15.
Sjalin is the 1LD against Farjestads. Also 9:15.
In Allsvenskan, Linbom is preliminarily listed as the starter as Mora is at Kristianstads. Start in ten minutes or so.
Ollas/Linkoping J20 had games scheduled for today and tomorrow morning, but they're no longer on the schedule so I assume they were canceled/postponed and now they're going 10 days without games. If you see the calendar I post and it ends up being inaccurate, this is often why. I put it together at the beginning of the week but it changes frequently.
Pajuniemi has a game but he is not listed in the lineup, still injured.
HKM Zvolen (where Huska is on loan) has had to shut down and quarantine until 11/2 due to a number of positive cases. The next game on their scheule is 11/10 and they haven't played since 10/20.
This is why I've said all along that the teams across the pond are in no better shape than the AHL/ECHL/Candian junior teams/NCAA. The European and Russian teams have having to postpone games left and right, there have been forfeits, limited or no audiences, etc. If things get any worse those leagues will be in dire straits. It's not wholly different that what teams over here face. The one upside to going to Europe for some of these guys is that right now, they are actively playing games, but who knows what it will look like in a month.
Anyway, I hope for the sake of all the players and fans that things improve and the various leagues and competitions can be completed without anything really serious happening to anyone.
This is why I've said all along that the teams across the pond are in no better shape than the AHL/ECHL/Candian junior teams/NCAA. The European and Russian teams have having to postpone games left and right, there have been forfeits, limited or no audiences, etc. If things get any worse those leagues will be in dire straits. It's not wholly different that what teams over here face. The one upside to going to Europe for some of these guys is that right now, they are actively playing games, but who knows what it will look like in a month.
Anyway, I hope for the sake of all the players and fans that things improve and the various leagues and competitions can be completed without anything really serious happening to anyone.
Lindbum stopped 39/41 but his team lost late in OT, 2-1.
Edström had 2 SOG and was +1.
Själin was scoreless but had 5 shots.
Henriksson had a secondary assist, 2 shots, 2 PIM, and was +1.
Lundkvist had 6 shots, was -2, and had 4 PIM.
Själin was scoreless but had 5 shots.
Henriksson had a secondary assist, 2 shots, 2 PIM, and was +1.
Lundkvist had 6 shots, was -2, and had 4 PIM.
Looking less and less likely to contribute at the NHL level. Not blaming it entirely on the injuries last year but he got zero traction last year in the AHL.
Tawnos
A guy with a bass
Re: Goalies... you simply don’t know what your starting goalie today is going to be doing in 5-6 years, because goalie shelf life really varies wildly. When the Rangers took Lafleur in 2007, it really was no sure bet that Lundqvist was going to be a top goalie in 2013. Yes, we felt a certain level of confidence that turned out to be right, but it wasn’t guaranteed.
In 5 years, Shesterkin turns 30. Do we truly have another 15 year goalie on our hands? Maybe, maybe not. But his presence in the franchise shouldn’t dictate anything at all about where and when we select goaltenders.
In 5 years, Shesterkin turns 30. Do we truly have another 15 year goalie on our hands? Maybe, maybe not. But his presence in the franchise shouldn’t dictate anything at all about where and when we select goaltenders.
I think this is true for all positions not just goalies...and thats why you don't worry about position, especially out of the top 10 or so....so much can change between the draft and a few years later when that kid is ready not just for the nhl but to contribute...
and this is even more important with the cap...shesterkin could be a 15 year guy, but how much is that gonna cost us? it might get to the point that you can't keep him as a UFA or at the very least need to have a cheap backup to balance it out so having a goalie prospect that can do that on a ELC would be huge...same applies everywhere. you look right now at our blueline depth in the system, but who knows how many guys are still around 5 years from now cause they either didn't pan out, or they did pan out and we had to trade them cause they were going to make too much $$. either way its never a bad thing to have guys waiting in the pipelines to fill as many roles as possible.
Fitzy
Very Stable Genius
- Jan 29, 2009
- 35,081
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There is certainly value in having a steady stream of goalies able to contribute on their ELCs or cap controlled contracts.
That said however if Shesty is as good as I think he is (Vezina caliber) they'd be foolish to let him walk in UFA unless some other kid in the system is already an obvious star.
That said however if Shesty is as good as I think he is (Vezina caliber) they'd be foolish to let him walk in UFA unless some other kid in the system is already an obvious star.
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