Confirmed with Link: Rakell to PIT for 2nd/Clang(goalie prospect)/ZAR/Simon

[The Old Master]

Serious question: is there something about our system that is so complicated that players need to be here for 5+ games before they're even acclimatized to it to the point where they don't produce and they're "eased" into the lineup on the third or fourth line?

could be a lot of factors. maybe the team your traded too plays the same system. maybe the guy is as dumb as a rock. ect.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Serious answer: apples & oranges here.

No, I don't think our system is so unique that it would take any player much longer to adjust to us than to adjust with another team. But a sizeable adjustment period is the NORM, not the exception, when you have a player going to a new team.

There are also pretty substantial differences between Rakell and Giroux.

Firstly, Giroux is a bonafide superstar. Sure, he's slowed down a bit since his prime, but Giroux is FOURTH behind only Crosby, Ovechkin and Patrick Kane in points in the NHL since 2010. He has elite, elite hockey sense. Comparing him to Rakell, just in terms of sheer ability and also experience is not a fair comparison. Giroux has always been a guy who drives play; Rakell has always been a complementary player, not a driver. He's averaged 50% more points per game than Rakell in his career.

Second, Giroux was traded on Saturday, and he has known for weeks it was Florida and nowhere else he wanted to go. There was no time difference or difficult travel. Giroux probably flew down on a private jet and he had several days before he was inserted into the lineup. He was traded Saturday, and his first game was Thursday.

Lastly, Giroux played his first game against the team with the worst record in the NHL. He got traded to the highest scoring team in the NHL, and played his first game against the last place team in the NHL. And while Jeff Carter is a nice player these days, Giroux was playing next to Alex Barkov, who is a top 5-7 center in the NHL and is putting up more ppg than Sidney Crosby. And Giroux's other assist came on the first unit of a Top 5 Power Play in the NHL, playing with 3 guys who are averaging over a point per game (Barkov, Huberdeau and Reinhart). So yeah, it's no surprise he picked up 2 secondary assists.

Rakell is not Giroux, Pittsburgh is not Florida, and Carter is not Barkov/Huberdeau. So I think it's fair to give Rakell more time to adjust and see how he does if he gets meaningful time with Crosby or Malkin, although unlike Giroux we know Rakell is not going to be on the first unit PP. This isn't about Sullivan.

My point was less about production (although I referenced it) and more about this idea that every time we get a new player, they have to be eased into the lineup by playing on the 3rd or 4th line for a few games first. In comparison, other teams acquire guys and they slot them in high in the lineup if that's where that player is best suited for. Giroux was just the most obvious and recent example of how he was slotted onto the top line in his very first game.

 

[Peat]

Rakell was eased in on the third line for two games after not practicing with the team, Kapanen eased in after he missed all pre-season due to visa issues. Prior to that though Zucker came right in to play with Crosby and I'm fairly sure Pearson was straight in with Malkin. Who was the last top 6 get before Pearson?

Rakell was ticketed for Malkin on game three post-injury i.e. right after first practice. I don't think it's about our system being wild, or this being the norm, so much as two very unideal sets of circs in a row. If it's not, it's something quite new.

 

[CascadiaPenguin]

Rakell was eased in on the third line for two games after not practicing with the team, Kapanen eased in after he missed all pre-season due to visa issues. Prior to that though Zucker came right in to play with Crosby and I'm fairly sure Pearson was straight in with Malkin. Who was the last top 6 get before Pearson?

Brassard? Though not as a L3 C, I guess. I hate even thinking about him.

 

[jmelm]

All valid points except for the bs about the flight and time difference. Sure, that might impact his first game but surely not games 2 and 3.

Both Rakell and the Pens' staff said that he took the red eye flight and didn't get much sleep between Monday or Tuesday. So sure, he obviously had some sleep after that and you can say fatigue wasn't a factor by game 3, but considering games 1 and 2 were back to back, I do think it's a factor. But sleep isn't even the most important part of this or the primary point I was trying to make.

There's a lot of talk about trying to get ahead of the deadline so players have more time to mesh with their new club. One example would be when we traded for Daley and Hagelin mid season. Would those players have had the same impact on our season if they were acquired with just 18-20 games to go? I'm sure not. More recent examples would include our own Jeff Carter last year, and Tyler Toffoli with CGY this year.

Perhaps Rakell would have made a better first impression if we didn't play him for the first or both of the back to back 2 games, but I don't believe we had an extra forward on our roster to have played. I'm glad he played though, whatever the results, because with each game he'll get more comfortable. And keep in mind because of the 3 games in 4 nights and overall compressed Covid schedule, I don't believe we've even had a practice since he's been here.

In any event, I view it as a bonus but not an expectation if a player has an immediate impact in terms of goals/points. If Rakell got a hat trick in his first or second game, I'd think that's great but I wouldn't think it's sustainable or necessarily indicative of future performance. So where we'll really be able to evaluate him is once they've had at least a handful of games (4-6 minimum) under their belt, and preferably with consistent linemates. I think it's reasonable to really be able to get an begin to get an accurate evaluation by Sunday, Tuesday or the following game and going forward beyond that. I think the last 3 games mean dick.

 

[jmelm]

My point was less about production (although I referenced it) and more about this idea that every time we get a new player, they have to be eased into the lineup by playing on the 3rd or 4th line for a few games first. In comparison, other teams acquire guys and they slot them in high in the lineup if that's where that player is best suited for. Giroux was just the most obvious and recent example of how he was slotted onto the top line in his very first game.

Understood, and I think if Rakell's first game was on Thursday (not Tuesday or Wednesday) and he had a chance to get a practice or two in with his future linemates, he absolutely would have been thrown into the fire. I believe Sullivan specifically alluded to as much.

Fleury didn't get put into either of his first two games in MIN, even though he could have played. I think this was the right move. But if he went in there right away and happened to have a s**t night, would we assume he's a bad goalie or fit with that team? Of course not.

My preference would have been to at least not play Rakell on the Tuesday and instead start him on Wed. against BUF if we had an extra F on the roster.

 

[JTG]

It would be awesome if Erod managed to be a productive third wheel on the first line, similar to Sheary in 2016. Being able to surround Geno with two legit top 6 wingers would be a great boost for this team IMO.

He plays like Dupuis. Dupuis was a perfect 3rd wheel. The unfortunate part was Kunitz was a 3rd wheel also. Sid really needed a more skilled guy on that line.

 

[jmelm]

Is it cool that we start liking Rakell again now? I know some people were ready to jump off a cliff after the first few games , but now that he got some points today……?

 

[Ryder71]

Is it cool that we start liking Rakell again now? I know some people were ready to jump off a cliff after the first few games , but now that he got some points today……?

RH extracted great value and in the process not forgoing our 1st rounder. I'm girlishly flustered with excitement.

 

[jmelm]

RH extracted great value and in the process not forgoing our 1st rounder. I'm girlishly flustered with excitement.

I give Rakell 10 Nylanders out of 10 on the Nylander scale.

I think we’re only just now arriving at the point where we can begin to reasonably evaluate him. In my opinion, if he can peforn at or above a B- level for the remainder of this season and into the playoffs, we should sign him to a 3-4 year extension before July 1st (or whatever the date is this year).

 

[Tender Rip]

It was incredibly dumb for people to bitch about his utilization in the first games, just as it will be incredibly dumb for people to bitch when he is eventually tried with Sid.

It will also be dumb (just not incredibly so) when I whine about Rust being taken away from Geno again to allow Sully to try Zucker Geno Rackell, but see if that is going stop me!

 

[KrisLetAngry]

This trade is looking better everyday

 

[3ladesof5teel]

This trade is looking better everyday

RR was a great grab and exactly what we needed to fill out the top 6. Love his game

 

[66-30-33]

It was incredibly dumb for people to bitch about his utilization in the first games, just as it will be incredibly dumb for people to bitch when he is eventually tried with Sid.

It will also be dumb (just not incredibly so) when I whine about Rust being taken away from Geno again to allow Sully to try Zucker Geno Rackell, but see if that is going stop me!

Jake-Crosby-Zucker

 

[Gurglesons]

Jake-Crosby-Zucker

I’ve been wanting to see this line since 19-20…

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I’ve been wanting to see this line since 19-20…

I want this as well...at least to be tested.

Love the idea of Sid and Jake making those sweeping lateral passes to a left handed shooting Zucker, one-timing pucks.

 

[Pens x]

Hopefully, Erod is simply a placeholder for Zucker on L1 until he returns to the lineup.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

I’ve been wanting to see this line since 19-20…

I want this as well...at least to be tested.

Love the idea of Sid and Jake making those sweeping lateral passes to a left handed shooting Zucker, one-timing pucks.

Would it be better to have Jake on the RW?

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Would it be better to have Jake on the RW?

No, I don't think so. Zucker is not good enough to be catered to. He'd be the support piece on the line.
I don't know how Jake would do on the RW but I've seen Zuck play similarly on the right side before. I don't think it would hurt him much, if at all.

Plus like I mentioned, with the way Jake and Sid pass I could see Zucker getting prime one-timer opportunities thanks to his handedness. Could help him be serviceable from the perimeter.
ERod is a righty and he can't offer that currently.

I understand having handedness pointing towards the boards is preferable for puck protection and possession purposes. However in Zucker's case I think he needs to get more shots from the middle ice to boost his chances of scoring and getting the confidence going. Plus I think his situation would make him more likely to cut into the danger areas with speed, more effectively utilizing his strengths. More skating and playing on instinct, rather than overthinking.
It makes him less likely to take the coward option and cycle, which he has done so poorly with Malkin. It usually just leads to giveaways or wasted possession.

 

[Peat]

Jake's been on the RW without it ever looking good. You'd think he'd look good there as a shooter, but he doesn't.

Thing is, I still remain quite skeptical Zucker would. It would solve so much but I look at his attributes and don't see it. If we want to get his goal scoring going, he needs to be going to to the net at every opportunity. He's got an alright shot from the slot but you'll rarely see him one time pucks in his goals highlights. He's not a McCann where it's an active weapon. Goalscoring Zucker got his business done around the blue paint - deflections, stuffing it in, rebounds, elevating it up close, pulling moves - he is (or was) very good at going across a goalie and putting in on the background (you pretty much never see him do the opposite). He scored a few goals for us in his first season on Sid making feeds through the blue paint and his action didn't look wonderful.

But how he scores his goals really isn't the main thing. It's going to be how it affects his zone exits and forechecking, his board play and his ability to make passes when coming down the wing. I have no idea why it doesn't seem to bother some wingers but just neuters others. But if he's one of the ones it neuters...

I am curious as to whether we'll see it simply because Sid's clearly gravitated towards playmakers as his third wheel and Zucker is pretty much diet-Hornqvist with speed.

 

[orby]

Honestly, considering his history with Dupuis, I wouldn't be shocked if Sid actually wanted Rodrigues as his winger. Erod and Duper are pretty similar players.

 

[Peat]

Honestly, considering his history with Dupuis, I wouldn't be shocked if Sid actually wanted Rodrigues as his winger. Erod and Duper are pretty similar players.

He wouldn't be there if Sid wasn't okay with him. He's not a million miles away from that 18-19 version of Simon either, or at least he isn't when his passes connect.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

No, I don't think so. Zucker is not good enough to be catered to. He'd be the support piece on the line.
I don't know how Jake would do on the RW but I've seen Zuck play similarly on the right side before. I don't think it would hurt him much, if at all.

Plus like I mentioned, with the way Jake and Sid pass I could see Zucker getting prime one-timer opportunities thanks to his handedness. Could help him be serviceable from the perimeter.
ERod is a righty and he can't offer that currently.

I understand having handedness pointing towards the boards is preferable for puck protection and possession purposes. However in Zucker's case I think he needs to get more shots from the middle ice to boost his chances of scoring and getting the confidence going. Plus I think his situation would make him more likely to cut into the danger areas with speed, more effectively utilizing his strengths. More skating and playing on instinct, rather than overthinking.
It makes him less likely to take the coward option and cycle, which he has done so poorly with Malkin. It usually just leads to giveaways or wasted possession.

I agree- Zucker has to cater to others at this point, not the other way around and certainly not asking your 30G winger to switch sides.

Let's see how Zucker is post injury. I'm probably his lone defender on this board, but pre injury I liked his game and his sandpaper. You kinda wonder if he is going to have that same aggressiveness coming back. That's a big ask for anyone coming off this surgery...

 

[jmelm]

I agree- Zucker has to cater to others at this point, not the other way around and certainly not asking your 30G winger to switch sides.

Let's see how Zucker is post injury. I'm probably his lone defender on this board, but pre injury I liked his game and his sandpaper. You kinda wonder if he is going to have that same aggressiveness coming back. That's a big ask for anyone coming off this surgery...

I think the issue is there are a lot of players we like, but not absolutely clear-cut answers in terms of who we should scratch when healthy. Rakell is obviously safe, and I would say Zucker is as well (if he's 100% healthy) just because of salary, but we could find holes to poke in each one of E-Rob, Heinen, Zucker and Kapanen (although hopefully KK has turned a corner and can keep this up consistently). So I think it will come down to chemistry as much as anything else....

If Rakell can be equally effective on RW, I think we'll see:

Guentzel--Crosby--Rust
Zucker-Malkin-Rakell
Heinen--Carter--Kapanen
Boyle--Blueger--McGinn
(E-Rod)

If Rakell stays at LW, then I think we'll see the following:

Guentzel--Crosby--E-Rod
Rakell--Malkin--Rust
Zucker--Carter--Kapanen
Boye--Blueger--McGinn
(Heinen)

So in one scenario Heinen is #13, and the other has E-Rod #13. I think those decisions and the line-up configurations will also based on who the Pens' staff think can best step up in the heavier, more stingy defense and high stakes style of play in the playoffs. I would consider both Heinen and E-Rod varying degrees of "soft", and both have had varying degrees of hot & cold. E-Rod is more versatile, but Heinen has been a bit more consistent offensively. Hard to foresee exactly how this will play out....

 

[66-30-33]

I’ve been wanting to see this line since 19-20…

I've been wanting to try Zucker and Crosby again for a long time, but Sully says that's blasphemy! Zucker and Crosby were good together when Zucker first came here.