OT: Raise the Jolly Roger: Uh...

[td_ice]

Are you done with the Pirates and the MLB?

Hahahahaha.

 

[Winger for Hire]

The offseason is gonna be pretty rough on their budget and the team (read- rotation) if they are going to be shopping for a #2 and #4 starter. The market is super thin on front end starters this coming offseason... I think the headliners, before options are declined/picked up, are going to be Andrew Cashner, Doug Fister... Gio, Buchholtz, Jamie Garica, Matt Moore, James Shields, Volquez, Hammels all have options/opt-outs and they're all either going to have their options picked up or I wouldn't trust to be a #2. So if they're really looking for a front end starter, it's going to have to be through a trade.

Cole, FA, Taillon, Vet FA, Kuhl/Brault

I don't foresee Glasnow being ready for the start of next season, baring an uber-productive offseason where the change-up clicks and the delivery falls into place to nail down the control.

 

[DanielPlainview]

Do you believe those numbers are somehow supporting your opinion?? Yeesh.

3 of those years are ridiculously low to comparable markets. 2015 was still low to comparable markets, just not as low. And 2016 numbers just got drastically reduced.

Other than that, I see your point.

There's more to it than pure market size. TV deals, ticket prices, and a host of other things factor in. Additionally, you don't know the long term effects of spending like the Royals are ($143m) on the franchise. I wouldn't at all be surprised if they end up having a fire sale at some point in the near future to shed what is to them a completely bloated payroll. Just look at what acting like that has done to Milwaukee, Cincinnati, and a host of other teams.

I get it, you want a championship and you're the type that would sell the farm, go for broke, and doom the franchise to years of rebuilding for one world series. I'm not. Most others aren't. And most smart businessmen who aren't desperate will do that.

 

[Coastal Kev]

There's more to it than pure market size. TV deals, ticket prices, and a host of other things factor in. Additionally, you don't know the long term effects of spending like the Royals are ($143m) on the franchise. I wouldn't at all be surprised if they end up having a fire sale at some point in the near future to shed what is to them a completely bloated payroll. Just look at what acting like that has done to Milwaukee, Cincinnati, and a host of other teams.

I get it, you want a championship and you're the type that would sell the farm, go for broke, and doom the franchise to years of rebuilding for one world series. I'm not. Most others aren't. And most smart businessmen who aren't desperate will do that.

I never said they should sell the farm, in fact, I hate short term rentals for prospects.

Also, when KC moves forward with their fire sale, do they sell for prospects or $'s?
Answering that question might shed some light with my discontent.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

I think the fact that KC tried to move Kennedy so quickly says a lot that needs to be said, especially because his contract was back-loaded. Kennedy's numbers are pretty much in line with his career numbers, too, so it's not like he's just been bad...he's been what basically every non-GM expected him to be, yet he was paid like a high-end #3 because free agency is absurd.

KC is going to be really ugly in a few years...especially if they have a mid-30s Ian Kennedy still making $16.5 million per year on them. They will get stuck paying a dear price just to clear that salary.

 

[DanielPlainview]

I never said they should sell the farm, in fact, I hate short term rentals for prospects.

Also, when KC moves forward with their fire sale, do they sell for prospects or $'s?
Answering that question might shed some light with my discontent.

They'll get what they can get, prospects, money, whatever. They'll probably end up like the Phillies.

 

[Coastal Kev]

They'll get what they can get, prospects, money, whatever. They'll probably end up like the Phillies.

I agree with the anti-Philly model completely. But Frankie wasn't on the hook for 13mill x 4 more years. He had 1 year left and it is completely reasonable for him to bounce back in a CONTRACT year. So all things considered, they should have just sat on him rather than panic at the trade deadline.

IF they really wanted to rid themselves of McGuire and Ramirez, then they should have packaged them with say Joyce or Freeze and get back a player with significant value.

 

[DanielPlainview]

There is absolutely no reason to believe he would turn it around, and I see no reason to wait on him when there are elite to solid pitching prospects waiting in the wings. You have to know when to cut your losses and the Pirates decided now was the time.

If the $13m goes toward helping to keep Cole, Marte, or Polanco in Pittsburgh then I'd consider it a win.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

The problem with Liriano bouncing back isn't that he's been awful this year...it's that he hasn't changed anything while the league adapted to him, and he reportedly refused to adapt to the adaptations.

Erm.

His entire time in Pittsburgh he threw the fewest strikes of any starter in baseball. His success was tied to how frequently players would swing, and usually miss, those pitches out of the zone. Simply put batters stopped swinging, meaning that he needed to get into the zone more often...but he didn't. He continued to throw his slider outside of the zone, he didn't get the swings and misses, and the result was a lot of 3-1 counts that ended in either walks or the batter sitting on a certain pitch and getting a hold of it. His strike rate never fluctuated, there was nothing wrong mechanical, he just stopped being effective because hitters stopped bailing him out.

It shouldn't be a surprise that his last hurrah as a Pirate came against the most free-swinging team in baseball.


That said I was still against trading him at the deadline because moving bad contracts costs more in season than it does out of season. Odds are he'd still have cost us a Ramirez-esque prospect to move had we waited until after the season, but not Ramirez and McGuire. Of course we did get a pitcher back as well, but I'm not buying that Hutchison is worth half of McGuire.

 

[Return of the Paek]

Huntington should run for political office... I love his "we just had to have Hutchison spin" to the Liriano salary dump. If they love Hutchison as much as they claim they do, they are on an island. Every major league team has multiple contracts way worse than Liriano. One more year of Liriano @ $13m is nothing compared to other team's bad contracts. Right now, factoring in arbitration raises, the Pirates payroll is about $80m next year. Can't wait to see what they do with their "financial flexibility." Better craft beer selection at the Foggy Goggle?

Here is a list of players that should play only in mop up duty or be immediately DFA'd:

1. Jared Hughes- absolutely awful in every way imaginable. His ERA is deceiving because of the inherited runners he has let score that arent factored in. Why the hell wasn't he the one traded instead of Caminero. Makes zero sense.

2. Locke- Should be pitching at the AA level. I can't believe this guy actually cried to management after management gave him the longest leash imaginable. No accountability on this team.

3. Jaso. There are 5 guys working at my local Walmart that can do what Jaso can. Doesn't even feel the need to run the bases. No accountability.

4. Cutch- Really sad to see such a great player decline drastically at 29. He really is garbage in every facet of the game. He can't field, he can't hit and probably has the weakest OF arm in MLB. The advanced statistics show that he has very few hard hit baseballs, his slash is terrible and he strikes out a ton. He is Enron stock.

5. Clint Hurdle should be fired. No accountability on this team of cry babies. Publicly chastised the umpiring re: balls and strikes. Terrible in-game management decisions on almost an every game basis. Will continue to start McCutchen in CF, batting 3rd, until he is hitting a smooth .200 with tons of errors and bad fielding plays. Brings in Jared Hughes in high leverage situations. Continues to play Jaso who has hit like .100 over the last 2 months. No stones. Complete opposite of Mike Sullivan (telling Geno to shut the f up on the bench when Geno was crying about the refs).


Here are the positives:

1. Really like Rivero's stuff, the guy is nasty.

2. Nova looks like an upgrade over: Niese, Liriano (this year) and Locke. Not saying much I suppose. He did pitch 7 innings though, I guess guys are able to do that without turning into pumpkins.

3. Freese and Joyce were excellent acquisitions.

4. Sean Rod has been an animal.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

The Bucs have a couple of flame-throwers who are better than Caminero, Hughes may not be better than Caminero, but he does offer a different skill-set that is more of a need for this team. He's still terrible and I hate him, but when used properly he's inoffensive. Every bullpen in baseball has a Jared Hughes, the problem for the Bucs is that we've had 3 or 4 at a time this year.

FWIW both Caminero & Hughes have ERAs more than a run lower than their FIPs, which should surprise nobody. That said, FIP is never kind to groundball pitchers like Hughes. Even when Hughes was really solid for long stretches of time his FIP never really sank below 4.

I doubt Hughes is back next season. He's making ~$2.2 million to be the defenition of replaceable.


I think you have consistently been way too hard on Jaso, though his bat has been cold for two full months now...that's not really acceptable from a 1B, but the Jaso we got in April & May is more in-line with what he's been in the past. I view this as more of an extended cold streak than what we should expect from Jaso moving forward.

 

[Return of the Paek]

Every bullpen in baseball has a Jared Hughes, the problem for the Bucs is that we've had 3 or 4 at a time this year.


I think you have consistently been way too hard on Jaso, though he's done basically nothing for the past month or so.

I will guarantee that these other bullpens do not deploy their "Jared Hughes" nearly as often nor in high leverage situations. He is a Clint guy, that is pretty clear.

Since July 8, the day Josh Bell was called up, John Jaso is hitting .152/.220/.196, 16 wRC+, 28% strikeout rate, 8% walk rate, 50 PA's (this was as of August 3rd).

 

[td_ice]

I honestly never want to see Jaso play another game as a Pirate. Between the one AB were he pathetically whiffed on three high and inside balls and came back to the dugout laughing, the not running out hard to 1b, his awful slump, and the lack of confidence in the manager for his D late in the game, he is a waste. Can't stand him.

I love me some Clint Hurdle, but not benching Jaso the next game was sad. Add that to his allowing Cutch too much leeway in acting like a petulant child at the plate ( no matter how justified) and I have been disappointed in (some of) his handling of the team. They are way to satisfied with mediocrity it seems.

 

[Winger for Hire]

Clint is an excellent motivator, but they need someone with some better handles on in game management and player discipline.

 

[Coastal Kev]

Clint is an excellent motivator, but they need someone with some better handles on in game management and player discipline.

Buck Showalter was always my first choice and he expressed interest with the Bucco job. We settled for Hurdle who isn't terrible, but has obvious flaws. Bylsma's penchant for playing pets is major hurdle he has to overcome.

 

[TNT87]

Here's an article about Cutch's season and how it ranks to other players at age 29. They say his decline this season is unprecedented for a superstar player.

http://www.espn.com/blog/sweetspot/...cline-is-unprecedented-for-a-superstar-hitter

 

[Harv]

''Financial flexibility''

 

[Coastal Kev]

''Financial flexibility''

Does anyone else think the Pirates could use a hitter batting .311 with 50 RBI's in 99 games??

Nah.... need more Jaso because he has power right??? RIP HRAM

 

[Gunnar Staal]

''Financial flexibility''

Thats a Charlie Morton statline if there ever was one.

 

[DanielPlainview]

Does anyone else think the Pirates could use a hitter batting .311 with 50 RBI's in 99 games??

Nah.... need more Jaso because he has power right??? RIP HRAM

RBI isn't a very meaningful statistic.

 

[PensandCaps]

Huntington should run for political office... I love his "we just had to have Hutchison spin" to the Liriano salary dump. If they love Hutchison as much as they claim they do, they are on an island. Every major league team has multiple contracts way worse than Liriano. One more year of Liriano @ $13m is nothing compared to other team's bad contracts. Right now, factoring in arbitration raises, the Pirates payroll is about $80m next year. Can't wait to see what they do with their "financial flexibility." Better craft beer selection at the Foggy Goggle?

Here is a list of players that should play only in mop up duty or be immediately DFA'd:

1. Jared Hughes- absolutely awful in every way imaginable. His ERA is deceiving because of the inherited runners he has let score that arent factored in. Why the hell wasn't he the one traded instead of Caminero. Makes zero sense.

2. Locke- Should be pitching at the AA level. I can't believe this guy actually cried to management after management gave him the longest leash imaginable. No accountability on this team.

3. Jaso. There are 5 guys working at my local Walmart that can do what Jaso can. Doesn't even feel the need to run the bases. No accountability.

4. Cutch- Really sad to see such a great player decline drastically at 29. He really is garbage in every facet of the game. He can't field, he can't hit and probably has the weakest OF arm in MLB. The advanced statistics show that he has very few hard hit baseballs, his slash is terrible and he strikes out a ton. He is Enron stock.

5. Clint Hurdle should be fired. No accountability on this team of cry babies. Publicly chastised the umpiring re: balls and strikes. Terrible in-game management decisions on almost an every game basis. Will continue to start McCutchen in CF, batting 3rd, until he is hitting a smooth .200 with tons of errors and bad fielding plays. Brings in Jared Hughes in high leverage situations. Continues to play Jaso who has hit like .100 over the last 2 months. No stones. Complete opposite of Mike Sullivan (telling Geno to shut the f up on the bench when Geno was crying about the refs).


Here are the positives:

1. Really like Rivero's stuff, the guy is nasty.

2. Nova looks like an upgrade over: Niese, Liriano (this year) and Locke. Not saying much I suppose. He did pitch 7 innings though, I guess guys are able to do that without turning into pumpkins.

3. Freese and Joyce were excellent acquisitions.

4. Sean Rod has been an animal.

Hughes is fine imo. why should he be blamed for inherited runners?

 

[PensandCaps]

Does anyone else think the Pirates could use a hitter batting .311 with 50 RBI's in 99 games??

Nah.... need more Jaso because he has power right??? RIP HRAM

Or s stud defensive catcher to throw out billy hamilton. Oh welll, god, why couldn't neal just eat the Liriano contract. Wasnt even that bad and he wouldve turned it around to a degree.

 

[Winger for Hire]

Where's the evidence to Liriano having a bounce back year next season, that everyone and their mother are predicting?

All signs, as Big, myself, and a lot of of stateheads have stated, are pointing to more regression or more of the same level as this year.

 

[DanielPlainview]

Some people just like to complain

 

[Coastal Kev]

Some people just like to complain

When you can no longer defend the indefensible, shoot the messenger.