OT: Raise the Jolly Roger: Sell the Team

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WheresRamziAbid

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Oct 31, 2013
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Right, but now that they're appearing to be in contention, they're reinvesting that money that they didn't spend the past few years. Which is what the Pirates promised to do, and what they should have done after the 98 win season. No one expects them to spend like the Yankees every year. I'm fine with them cheaping out during lean years if they spend heavily to supplement the roster when prospects are ready to produce. But they're not doing that. They're pocketing the money, then when the team starts to show signs of success, they trade those players so that they can pocket even more money. There's really no excusing it. Small market my ass.

1. If spending "Up to" 85 million (where the Brewers are at) is doing what they promised then the Pirates have exceeded those promises for at least 3 years.

2. There is no evidence they are "pocketing" anything significant.

3. They are a small market and thats not debatable, they are consistently in the bottom third in revenues and the fact that the MLB literally gives them a shot at extra draft picks twice (one based on market and another based on revenues) is all the proof you really need.
 

WheresRamziAbid

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Oct 31, 2013
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The Cards are also in that lottery

But they only get one qualify under one of the criteria (Market) and not under Revenue. If every team qualified under both there would only be 10 picks awarded. Before they tweaked it the Cardinals only got one shot in the lottery while teams in both categories got 2.
 

Winger for Hire

Praise Beebo
Dec 9, 2013
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But they only get one qualify under one of the criteria (Market) and not under Revenue. If every team qualified under both there would only be 10 picks awarded. Before they tweaked it the Cardinals only got one shot in the lottery while teams in both categories got 2.

I just wanted to point out it's insane the Cards even qualify for franchise welfare of any kind.
 
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WheresRamziAbid

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Oct 31, 2013
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I just wanted to point out it's insane the Cards even qualify for franchise welfare of any kind.

Oh yeah, its nuts. But they are the gold standard as of how to operate as a small market. There fan support and their ability to generate revenue despite being in Stl is quite remarkable.
 

WheresRamziAbid

Registered User
Oct 31, 2013
7,240
2,093
I dont this is a coincidence...

Opening Day Payrolls

Stl
2017 - 148
2016 - 145 (+46)
2015 - 122
2012 - 111 (+60)

Pit
2017 - 95
2016 - 99
2015 - 90
2012 - 51

It just so happens that according to statistica the Cards revenues are estimated to be 45 million more that the Pirates in 2016. And 61 in 2012 per business insider.
 

DJ Spinoza

Registered User
Aug 7, 2003
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Opaque as far as if this means interest or speculation, but this is what counts as a hot stove this offseason (if you glance further down Heyman's timeline, it seems more like speculation, as he was posting an article singing Melky's praises). I'd rather take the chance with Maybin, but Cabrera would be a solid contributor to the lineup, especially if he becomes a bench bat when Meadows is ready. The one thing that has me less high on him is that his defense doesn't seem even average from reports. This might be mitigated somewhat by having Marte next to him, but it isn't the kind of thing that bodes well for a team in need of all the help it can get. None of the possibilities bowl you over, but I like going for Maybin as one of the younger guys available.
 
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ColePens

RIP Fugu Buffaloed & parabola
Mar 27, 2008
107,023
67,649
Pittsburgh
I dont this is a coincidence...

Opening Day Payrolls

Stl
2017 - 148
2016 - 145 (+46)
2015 - 122
2012 - 111 (+60)

Pit
2017 - 95
2016 - 99
2015 - 90
2012 - 51

It just so happens that according to statistica the Cards revenues are estimated to be 45 million more that the Pirates in 2016. And 61 in 2012 per business insider.

I dont know if possible but id like to see total payments per each team because as of late it felt like we tried shedding money at the end of seasons just to do so
 

WheresRamziAbid

Registered User
Oct 31, 2013
7,240
2,093
I dont know if possible but id like to see total payments per each team because as of late it felt like we tried shedding money at the end of seasons just to do so

Actually per cots our end year 40 man is about 110 the last couple years which puts us around neutral to slight increases from opening day 25 since league min for 15 guys is about 7.5 mil.
 

Jaded-Fan

Registered User
Mar 18, 2004
52,637
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Pittsburgh


That is two so far suspended this year right?

Though Nutting is likely popping the cork on a bottle right now when he reads the 'suspended without pay' part.
 

DJ Spinoza

Registered User
Aug 7, 2003
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Wouldn't be shocked if it happened soon- iirc he was a waiver grab a few weeks ago.

I guess all the noise about Darvish signing was just noise. He's definitely going to get some kind of contract, and I'd imagine that Frazier and Moustakas will get something, or cave for something. But this could really drag on indefinitely, with some of these guys (particularly Martinez) ending up holding out IMO. Besides maybe Darvish, everybody is playing a waiting game and is pretty clearly unwilling to commit either serious term or serious salary.

Sherman (I think) wrote an article the other day which said the Yankees basically had 10-15 million budgeted for an additional acquisition, and thus might just wait and see if they can get some kind of combination like Walker + Cashner for that price. You'd think that Harrison with half his salary covered might be appealing, but I'm more and more convinced that the plan is to keep him and see the market later.
 

DJ Spinoza

Registered User
Aug 7, 2003
25,353
3,874
I think it's more default and structural than it is coordinated. The last two World Series winners completely and totally tanked and are now power house teams. Probably half of the teams in baseball are not actively trying to compete in 2018, so why sign 32 year old free agents? When you add in the fact that most contracts tend to be bad, and next year's abundance, you have a recipe for what we are seeing.

I really think that beyond Darvish, there isn't a whole lot of appeal remaining in the top of the class. It would make sense for a dormant giant team like the Phillies to really aggressively go get Darvish. He's someone who I think if you are thinking about competing over the next four or five years, will be very useful. In that respect, although there's the requisite injury risks, I don't think it would be insane folly for the Pirates to go after him. If he's going to be down to what Jordan Zimmerman got, or less (5 years, 110), then you have the chance to pay a premium for a top flight pitcher who has as good a chance as any to age relatively well. Obviously, there's no chance in hell that it happens, but it would only put them back in the ballpark of where they were willing to spend a bit ago. And by fuzzy math, you have about 2/3rds of what Darvish would make being cleared after this season if you trust internal replacements for S-Rod, Freese, and Hudson, and 10 mil more if you end up moving Harrison.

In a sense, both the top end and the bottom end of the market give the lie to whatever kind of weird re-tooling the Pirates are doing right now. Being wholly conservative has utterly failed them and is only going to continue to do so. I can get on board with the idea that for a mediocre team, it's better to get some kind of asset and a prospect than a final, hopeless year for McCutchen, and I can even buy into the spread quantity over one flier quality, unproven prospect with the Cole deal - banking (and bracketing) on the idea that Cole wouldn't improve his value with the Pirates (bracketing because that is largely due to the Pirates philosophy) - but in that case, turn back around and make some impact in the market. Darvish + a depth outfielder is probably going to put you just a bit above the payrolls from a few years back, and makes you more officially in the WC conversation.

Away from fantasyland world, I do think that the more middling, cusp-teams like the Rockies, Brewers, etc., should be jumping into this market and doing what they can. Just as a matter of fact, barring weird circumstances there is basically no way that certain teams can compete for many of the top free agents, all of the new rules and everything considered. As we know, that means you have to draft and develop, and make smart trades and value free agent signings. Given this reality, if you have the chance to wade into a weak market and get some discounted, still flawed talent, there's no reason to stick to some kind of formula.
 

cookthebooks

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Oct 4, 2017
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the game has changed and now even the yankees and dodgers and their ilk assess player value like the pirates. seems like gone are the days when a small market club could watch a big market team sign old players to long term deals.

if everyone looks at prospect values the same way and everyone looks at aging curves the same way then there isn’t really a free agent market in the past 20 year sense. must make scott boras pull whatever hair he had left out of his head. whole game is trying to prise away the machados of the world early i guess
 

WheresRamziAbid

Registered User
Oct 31, 2013
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Unsurprisingly Ken Rosenthal is saying the MEts just cant make up their **** minds. They are still deciding between signing, Todd Fraizier, Nunez, Walker or trading for Harrison.
 

DJ Spinoza

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Aug 7, 2003
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It seems likely that a free agent is what they'll opt for. I think the options are going to be cheaper. Frazier won't, but he'd be an uptick in how much it seems like they're willing to spend. If the other guys can demand around 5 million, then Harrison could become valuable if we pay part of his salary. But if the others might get a contract for less than 5 million, then they can just keep their assets and call it a day.
 

Brandinho

deng xiaoping gang
Aug 28, 2005
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República de Cuba
Would rather hold onto Harrison than sell him on the cheap to satisfy the Mets' stinginess. We control him through 2020 and he only needs to average a little more than a WAR per season to be worth his contract. We can trade him later, there's no urgency now.
 

DJ Spinoza

Registered User
Aug 7, 2003
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3,874
Yeah, I don't see the need to move him now in a weak market. I guess if you got a guy like Nimmo, with all the vaunted years of control, and already some cup of coffee in MLB, but from an asset management perspective, we can easily get a short term solution for a 3rd/4th OF, and generally speaking it might be the case that Harrison becomes a lot more valuable as the season goes on. For example, just thinking about the Yankees, if they suffer an injury or one or more prospects are very underwhelming, then Harrison might become a huge target for them, and as long as they can stay under the tax threshold this year, next year doesn't matter, and the flexibility of control becomes an addtional attraction.

For now, it's still hard to say if the market is just ice cold, or if some outfielders would jump at a guaranteed contract. In other words, hard to know if the players themselves aren't making decisions, or if the teams are continuing to try and wait them out. We seem to be mostly content to forge ahead into mediocrity on our own (0 free agent signings), but it seems like a waste not to bolster the depth with a couple of value plays. Sign Maybin and Trevor Cahill and invite one or two others to spring training on minor league deals. The relatively open situation should actually be more appealing to the fringier minor league contracts, since less expectations and depth means more opportunities.
 

bambamcam4ever

107 and counting
Feb 16, 2012
14,412
6,447
I dont this is a coincidence...

Opening Day Payrolls

Stl
2017 - 148
2016 - 145 (+46)
2015 - 122
2012 - 111 (+60)

Pit
2017 - 95
2016 - 99
2015 - 90
2012 - 51

It just so happens that according to statistica the Cards revenues are estimated to be 45 million more that the Pirates in 2016. And 61 in 2012 per business insider.
OK, and where do they get those revenue numbers? I assume the Cardinals aren't opening up their books to random websites. GIGO.
 
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