OT: Raise the Jolly Roger: New season of plundering begins

[BusinessGoose]

Just hard to stomach another late game loss

 

[sovietsanta87]

Haha a balk. Little league bullshit

 

[Empoleon8771]

Hernandez's fastball is sitting at 91 MPH. I have no clue how sirens aren't just going off in the Mets stadium that the guy isn't right.

 

[BusinessGoose]

Hope we can get some hits here

 

[DJ Spinoza]

Hernandez's performance is inexcusable and singlehandedly lost this game unless the offense somehow comes out of its coma.

The problem starts with the offense, though. Its just been absolutely atrocious and there isn't a single player on the team who can come up with a clutch hit. Getting swept with Falter on the mound tomorrow will punctuate where we are at -- the only saving grace being that we've built up some cushion. This has been a nightmare series and entirely self-caused. The Mets are not that good.

 

[sovietsanta87]

Perhaps our strategy should be to tax the other team’s bullpen by scoring multiple runs in the first half of the game

 

[ImporterExporter]

Pathetic, little league bs move by Shelton pulling a kid who's at 59 pitches through 5, with 7 Ks and 1 hit against.

I cannot take this team seriously until they hire serious f***ing managers.

 

[td_ice]

We thought the starters would be iffy and the pen solid, and it's turned into quite the opposite.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Wish our offense didn't suck.

 

[sovietsanta87]

Wish our offense didn't suck.

Remember, we thought Hayes was done as a hitter until he went to see Jon Nunnally who the pirates then fired.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Remember, we thought Hayes was done as a hitter until he went to see Jon Nunnally who the pirates then fired.

Blaming the hitting coaches is boring, but I get it.

 

[sovietsanta87]

Blaming the hitting coaches is boring, but I get it.

Sure. It’s just happen stance all these players suck at hitting. And that we left Hayes for dead until he got hurt and worked with someone else to alter his approach.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Sure. It’s just happen stance all these players suck at hitting. And that we left Hayes for dead until he got hurt and worked with someone else to alter his approach.

It is completely feasible that a $40m lineup featuring only 2 guys who were top hitting prospects at any point (not counting 38 year old McCutchen) is not a great lineup. Andy Haines is some jabroni making a million bucks a year. He isn't the one in the batters box.

 

[sovietsanta87]

It is completely feasible that a $40m lineup featuring only 2 guys who were top hitting prospects at any point (not counting 38 year old McCutchen) is not a great lineup. Andy Haines is some jabroni making a million bucks a year. He isn't the one in the batters box.

It’s also completely feasible that the gameplan set forth by the hitting instructor, who was fired by two other organizations, not only hinders success but destroys development in the process. And we have an example of a player doing a complete 180 at the plate after getting instruction elsewhere.

I’m not arguing against the viewpoint that players play. But for the entire lineup to suck at hitting…it goes beyond payroll. You can’t tell me there isn’t enough talent. That Cruz or Davis don’t have the pedigree to be better

 

[BusinessGoose]

I dunno, i mean, we were doing okay hitting vs quintana who should have shut us down hard, but we stranded 7....then it got to a point where everyone gave up

 

[ChaosAgent]

It’s also completely feasible that the gameplan set forth by the hitting instructor, who was fired by two other organizations, not only hinders success but destroys development in the process. And we have an example of a player doing a complete 180 at the plate after getting instruction elsewhere.

I’m not arguing against the viewpoint that players play. But for the entire lineup to suck at hitting…it goes beyond payroll. You can’t tell me there isn’t enough talent. That Cruz or Davis don’t have the pedigree to be better

We have 91 runs in 18 games. That is middle of the pack.

Thousands of ABs against high level pitching matter much more than who the hitting coach for a couple years is.

And no, it is very much in question whether there is enough talent. Prospects bust all the time. A former #2OA catching prospect washed out and wound up here as our backup.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

My attempt at some against the grain optimism: the record is still 11-7, half a game off the division, and above all else the combo of Jones and Skenes to go along with an extended veteran #3 in Keller is an extremely bright near future. If you want to start to dream about even just one of Chandler, Solometo, or Harrington popping up not too far behind that group, then it really gets exciting.

Jones' emergence on the scene has been a major development in the early going. It's impossible to overstate it. If he keeps this or something moderately close to it up for 6 weeks, he will jump over Yamamoto and Chourio as the favorite in the ROY race, and beyond that be basically among the best pitchers in the league. He made guys whose entire calling card is minimal strike out rates look like absolute fools tonight.

I do agree that the organizational development still leaves something to be desired. The offense is a huge red flag. Part of the issue right now is that Davis is lost and Cruz has been totally spiraling out of control for a week. I believe both are good hitters, but you basically just have a Reynolds-fueled lineup with Hayes hurt.

Even then, the offense is creating opportunities but not getting the clutch hits. Some of that is luck.

My .02 is that the whole Nunnally thing is overblown. There's nothing preventing Hayes from continuing to work with him now that he's no longer in the organization. That's something that is extremely widespread in MLB today.

A sweep feels inevitable, but again, that's where the split in Philly really looms large. If we pull out a win, it's a mediocre road trip to tread water and hopefully shorten the time until Skenes by about 1/4th. If we lose, then it's a bad road trip but not a terrible 1-6 one. 2-5 will happen over the course of the season and you can still survive. And who knows, maybe the Bailey Falter show will keep rolling?

 

[MrBrightside]

Well this thread should be a nice break from the utter panic, burn it all to the ground threads regarding the Penguins.

That said, this is not a serious organization. Some regression to the mean was inevitable as they were winning every extra-inning game and having good BABIP luck the first two weeks, but nothing they are doing remotely indicates that this organization cares about winning in 2024. Pulling Jones after 59 pitches is nonsensical on every level, especially when he was as dominant as he was last night, they went into the season adding only 2 SP when they needed 3-4 and one of the two was an injury waiting to happen, you can't keep pitching jobbers like Hernandez and Ryan in high leverage spots, and if we are "building up" Skenes 2 pitches at a time or whatever the plan is, he could be doing that here instead of in Indy.

Some stuff is outside their control - Hayes always has been and always will be fragile - but man this lineup thins out quickly with the struggles of Cruz and Davis.

 

[Fogel]

Jones has been well above expectations and Davis has been well below expectations. The prospect gods giveth and taketh.

Jones is also an example of going for going for high ceiling prospects and how getting hits on those can be amazing even if the odds are lower. I don't think he needs to replicate Strider, even settling into the 2-3 WAR range is going to do wonders. Since Keller's debut in 2019, there have been only 4 Pirate starters (Musgrove, Quintana, Kellerx2) who have had seasons that were better than 2fWAR, which is supposed to be roughly an average starter value. That is amazing in a bad way.

 

[sovietsanta87]

I’m not saying a new hitting coach solves all our problems. I just believe they could have a better one. Same with the manager. If you’re trying to cut corners with payroll, at least spend a little coin to develop players.

Or just fire the Haines and keep the spot vacant. Saves even more money.

This org employed Gregg Ritchie as a hitting coach in the early 2010’s. Nice guy. Total buffoon. I think we’re a little too quick to dismiss the impact of good coaching, particularly with young prospects in the fold.

Ok. I’m done beating a dead horse

 

[DJ Spinoza]

Jones has been well above expectations and Davis has been well below expectations. The prospect gods giveth and taketh.

Jones is also an example of going for going for high ceiling prospects and how getting hits on those can be amazing even if the odds are lower. I don't think he needs to replicate Strider, even settling into the 2-3 WAR range is going to do wonders. Since Keller's debut in 2019, there have been only 4 Pirate starters (Musgrove, Quintana, Kellerx2) who have had seasons that were better than 2fWAR, which is supposed to be roughly an average starter value. That is amazing in a bad way.

Agreed, and dominant pitching is the one thing that you can't really get by being a cheap team unless you draft and develop it.

It's way too much "cart before the horse" to talk like this, but getting into a playoff series and having Skenes, then Jones, then Keller would be an imposing situation for an opponent, even if the offense is pretty bad. It's easier to find offensive improvements via platoon situations, minor trades for rentals, etc. What's hard to get is the pitching that can take opponents nearly entirely out of games.

The league will obviously adjust to Jones in some ways, and I agree that a 2-3 WAR pitcher is still a huge boon. But at least so far, Jones has been better than I think anyone could have imagined in their wildest dreams.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

Idk, I think the Pirates' collective hitting philosophy leaves a lot to be desired. They let too many good ones go.

Every strike massively reduces the chances of success. Mostly taking the first pitch is fine, but every meatball taken after the first pitch massively shifts the odds in the pitcher's favor.

Very few major leaguers can take as many pitches as this team does and have success

 

[ImporterExporter]

Are people not extremely concerned with the managerial personnel in place?

We keep talking about players and good wins/bad losses, projections, blah, blah, blah...but we're still employing the same coaches that have overseen an absolutely pathetic won/loss record, with pitching AND hitting not making the mark, more often than not.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

Bart seemingly scratched for Davis.

 

[sovietsanta87]

Are people not extremely concerned with the managerial personnel in place?

We keep talking about players and good wins/bad losses, projections, blah, blah, blah...but we're still employing the same coaches that have overseen an absolutely pathetic won/loss record, with pitching AND hitting not making the mark, more often than not.

Cutting costs across the board. He did it at seven springs, he does it with the pirates, he’ll do it with wiggle whiskey (although idk how it can get worse). It can’t just coincidence that we have struggled to develop talent for the better part of 30 years.