OT: Raise the Jolly Roger: Misusing Your Bullpen 101 with Clint Hurdle

[ColePens]

I don't quite understand the weird baseball hate in here.

- Jeter.. okay while not the perfect person, hell of a ballplayer. You can hate the Yankees all you want, don't take away that he's been a dynamic player for years and years. His stats/rings speak for themselves. Stop hating just because the uniform. You say he gets praise because of it? Well you cannot hate for the same thing. That's just a hilarious way to argue a point.

- Pirates management: Yikes... come on people. Just accept they are cheap and it's probably a smart business decision as a whole. The business of MLB is broken so it's an impossible debate.

- Cutch leaving after 4 years. Lol... we are 4 years away. It will be very interesting when we get there and we try to low ball him, but we can never tell. I will pick up this topic when it finally shows up.

 

[Gooch]

When has NH ever been foolish with his assets?

NH has brought a ton of players that are either rentals or short term fixes over the past few year, AJ Wandy Ludwick Lee Byrd Morneau, maybe i'm missing something, but out of all those trades i can't think of one player he traded away that he should't of traded.

NH has done an excellent job, those trades don't look like horrible value to me.

Everything can't always be about the future, when you have a contending team at the deadline you try to make trades to help your team, that's what every GM does, its baseball 101.

Just because that's what other teams do doesnt mean you follow suit. You never get any innovation if you're simply always doing something because "that's the way it's done". That's what enabled the A's to have so much success with moneyball because so many teams were caught up in not thinking and just doing something because that's how it's done. Same with the Rays, we're at a huge disadvantage trying to play that game and it's silly to engage in it. Everything always has to be about the future with this team and the present will take care of itself. A good portion of the big performers on this club are guys that have been talked about as trade chips in deadline deals of the past.

Also when looking at a trade it's not about evaluating what player/s that were included it is about what is the value of the package at that time. People do this all the time with the penguins deadline trades saying that "well since we never draft anyone worth anything with a 2nd round pick it doesnt mean anything". Convert the players into a dollar amount (which is what a lot of front offices do) and there you have that value. That can be spent in many which ways, I do not believe those deals you listed are helping this team now. The only deal I liked was the AJ deal because it was basically paid for by the yankees and was largely free (player wise). I didnt like the Wandy deal because I just didnt like him as a pitcher period and wouldve rather of targeted someone younger with the assets used to acquire him. In all of these cases if you were to use the packages used to acquire those short term and in many cases useless rentals to acquire longterm meaningful acquisitions they woudlve provided more use to this team.

I like Neal Huntington a lot, he's my favorite GM of all the team's I am a fan of. He's closest to my philosophy as far as building a team from within goes. I feel like he's pressured each year from impatient fans who don't grasp how the business of baseball works and think it's still 1979 and all teams are on even financial keel. If you look back to the freaking trade rumors of what we offered for Bud freaking Norris at the deadline it makes me want to barf. A kind of pitcher that basically we would be sending down to AAA because we have no room on the active roster for them is something that would garner 2 significant prospects. That is the kind of sellers market that a team should not be buying in and instead we should be selling. We should be taking all of our deadweight that isnt going to be on the roster in the next year or two and flip them at this time of year for maximum value. That's my only problem with Huntington is that he wont do that. I don't know if it's his philosophy or if it's the pressure that it "looks bad" to sell at the deadline. I am a practical person so I don't get caught up in the emotions of things so I just see it as a sell high buy low approach of doing business. Buy guys over the winter, sell them at the deadline. If your team isnt good enough to win it with a pre deadline roster the post deadline one likely isnt going to make the difference.

 

[Gooch]

I don't quite understand the weird baseball hate in here.

- Jeter.. okay while not the perfect person, hell of a ballplayer. You can hate the Yankees all you want, don't take away that he's been a dynamic player for years and years. His stats/rings speak for themselves. Stop hating just because the uniform. You say he gets praise because of it? Well you cannot hate for the same thing. That's just a hilarious way to argue a point.

- Pirates management: Yikes... come on people. Just accept they are cheap and it's probably a smart business decision as a whole. The business of MLB is broken so it's an impossible debate.

- Cutch leaving after 4 years. Lol... we are 4 years away. It will be very interesting when we get there and we try to low ball him, but we can never tell. I will pick up this topic when it finally shows up.

The Jeter thing is about a player who while good and on the cusp of great is not the best and not even the best at his position yet is talked about like he's the greatest of all time. It's obvious the uniform on him is what is driving up the talks. I don't hate the uniform, I grew up in Yankee's territory. Rickey Henderson (while on the yankees) was my initial favorite player growing up until I replaced it with Doug Drabek for a rather random reason. It's not about that it's about someone getting accolades they fully don't deserve. I felt the same way when Messi was gifted the golden ball in this last world cup despite a vastly superior James Rodriquez performance. I feel this same way each year they give Derek Jeter a gold glove that he doesnt deserve.

We need to be honest with ourselves, if Derek Jeter was a lifetime Padre there wouldnt be the nationwide gift tour and the incessant fawning of him at this all-star game and the multitude of undeserved gold gloves thrown his way. Mike Trout IS the best player in baseball right now and instead of talking about his deserved accolades they're talking about a guy who is making 20ish million a year hitting with a .650 ish OPS playing subpar defense and collecting gifts from each location.

 

[ImporterExporter]

So, is Stetson Allie really going to be an option at the MLB level and when? We could use a power bat at first.

Not likely. He's got ML power, but nothing else that's worthy of being at the highest level.

 

[cheesedanish87]

Just because that's what other teams do doesnt mean you follow suit. You never get any innovation if you're simply always doing something because "that's the way it's done". That's what enabled the A's to have so much success with moneyball because so many teams were caught up in not thinking and just doing something because that's how it's done. Same with the Rays, we're at a huge disadvantage trying to play that game and it's silly to engage in it. Everything always has to be about the future with this team and the present will take care of itself. A good portion of the big performers on this club are guys that have been talked about as trade chips in deadline deals of the past.

Also when looking at a trade it's not about evaluating what player/s that were included it is about what is the value of the package at that time. People do this all the time with the penguins deadline trades saying that "well since we never draft anyone worth anything with a 2nd round pick it doesnt mean anything". Convert the players into a dollar amount (which is what a lot of front offices do) and there you have that value. That can be spent in many which ways, I do not believe those deals you listed are helping this team now. The only deal I liked was the AJ deal because it was basically paid for by the yankees and was largely free (player wise). I didnt like the Wandy deal because I just didnt like him as a pitcher period and wouldve rather of targeted someone younger with the assets used to acquire him. In all of these cases if you were to use the packages used to acquire those short term and in many cases useless rentals to acquire longterm meaningful acquisitions they woudlve provided more use to this team.

I like Neal Huntington a lot, he's my favorite GM of all the team's I am a fan of. He's closest to my philosophy as far as building a team from within goes. I feel like he's pressured each year from impatient fans who don't grasp how the business of baseball works and think it's still 1979 and all teams are on even financial keel. If you look back to the freaking trade rumors of what we offered for Bud freaking Norris at the deadline it makes me want to barf. A kind of pitcher that basically we would be sending down to AAA because we have no room on the active roster for them is something that would garner 2 significant prospects. That is the kind of sellers market that a team should not be buying in and instead we should be selling. We should be taking all of our deadweight that isnt going to be on the roster in the next year or two and flip them at this time of year for maximum value. That's my only problem with Huntington is that he wont do that. I don't know if it's his philosophy or if it's the pressure that it "looks bad" to sell at the deadline. I am a practical person so I don't get caught up in the emotions of things so I just see it as a sell high buy low approach of doing business. Buy guys over the winter, sell them at the deadline. If your team isnt good enough to win it with a pre deadline roster the post deadline one likely isnt going to make the difference.

I'm not sure why you would use Oakland as an example of a team that everything has to be about the future, Oakland just traded away its farm for short term fixes.


I guess were just going to have to agree to disagree, i just don't get the thinking that the pirates should be sellers at the deadline if they are in the race.

 

[ColePens]

The Jeter thing is about a player who while good and on the cusp of great is not the best and not even the best at his position yet is talked about like he's the greatest of all time. It's obvious the uniform on him is what is driving up the talks. I don't hate the uniform, I grew up in Yankee's territory. Rickey Henderson (while on the yankees) was my initial favorite player growing up until I replaced it with Doug Drabek for a rather random reason. It's not about that it's about someone getting accolades they fully don't deserve. I felt the same way when Messi was gifted the golden ball in this last world cup despite a vastly superior James Rodriquez performance. I feel this same way each year they give Derek Jeter a gold glove that he doesnt deserve.

We need to be honest with ourselves, if Derek Jeter was a lifetime Padre there wouldnt be the nationwide gift tour and the incessant fawning of him at this all-star game and the multitude of undeserved gold gloves thrown his way. Mike Trout IS the best player in baseball right now and instead of talking about his deserved accolades they're talking about a guy who is making 20ish million a year hitting with a .650 ish OPS playing subpar defense and collecting gifts from each location.

You are also falling for ESPN hype. The same idiotic station that wastes time w/ Johnny M & Dallas Cowboys training camp while important things are going on. Don't fall for it.

Yes - Jeter is the beloved baseball player. We get it. Real baseball minds give love to Trout as he deserves. Jeter DOES deserve the love he gets around the world. When you are the star of the Yanks for so many years - it comes w/ the nature of the beast. You honestly sound like those Crosby haters from around the NHL. They just can't stand the hype and can't wait for him to mess up.

Simple answer - stop watching ESPN. If you can't, at least stop listening to what they have to say. It's like listening to 93.7 The Fan for Penguins news. It's just insane.

 

[Gooch]

I'm not sure why you would use Oakland as an example of a team that everything has to be about the future, Oakland just traded away its farm for short term fixes.


I guess were just going to have to agree to disagree, i just don't get the thinking that the pirates should be sellers at the deadline if they are in the race.

I cited them as an example of bucking the trend and how successful it can make a club.

I really did not like the deal they made for samardzia.

It's pretty easy to get the thinking that they should be sellers. Teams spend more on players than they normally would due to it being at the deadline, thus players have inflated values this time of year and not representative to their true worth. A smart team would take advantage of this and not buy but sell.

Having a small market team like the pirates is like being in a salary cap league where your team has a cap half of what the rest of the team's in the league have. You absolutely need to make every dollar count if you intend on competing against the other teams, therefor you need to take advantage of every opportunity to give you a leg up on getting value.

That is the thinking behind it, it's not being done except maybe by the Rays. It's certainly not "the way it's done" kind of thinking that all teams permiate. But cmon, we all know things in life that are done "because that's how things are done" and they're just flat out stupid. I had this issue when I was intending on a career in Political Strategy. I had people swear to me that winning elections was all about being a door to door salesman and a telemarketer, you know because americans love those people. When I told them that perhaps we're probably alienating more voters than gaining due to calling them while they're trying to eat dinner in order to sell them something I was basically told the whole "that's the way it's done" kind of crap. It's tiresome that people wont think for themselves and just accept the ways things are done as gospel.

Baseball is at least trending in a better area with the analytics gaining a huge ground. This was only done so though by teams like the A's pioneering the way through.

Just go back last year to this forum or even the Pirates main forum and look at the trade proposals being brought up. Polanco was seen as a trade chip by many then. Only the crazies like myself were saying that prospects like him were untouchable and crucial to the organization. We couldve had Alex Rios for him instead lol.

 

[Gooch]

You are also falling for ESPN hype. The same idiotic station that wastes time w/ Johnny M & Dallas Cowboys training camp while important things are going on. Don't fall for it.

Yes - Jeter is the beloved baseball player. We get it. Real baseball minds give love to Trout as he deserves. Jeter DOES deserve the love he gets around the world. When you are the star of the Yanks for so many years - it comes w/ the nature of the beast. You honestly sound like those Crosby haters from around the NHL. They just can't stand the hype and can't wait for him to mess up.

Simple answer - stop watching ESPN. If you can't, at least stop listening to what they have to say. It's like listening to 93.7 The Fan for Penguins news. It's just insane.

I don't watch ESPN, except recently to watch the world cup. I watch the MLB network for baseball coverage, NFL network for football, NHL for hockey etc...

The difference between Jeter and Crosby is that Crosby is actually the best in the league and the best at his position. His reputation for greatness is entirely deserved and shows it every year.

I guess I have the unpopular belief that you should actually earn the things you acquire. Jeter while being a very good player was not deserving of many of his gold gloves and the accolades he has received. I just remember a few years ago when he had his 3000th hit and it was on the regular news. People like my dad who doesnt give a crap about sports was talking about it. I don't like reputation compensating for actual ability.

 

[Ogrezilla]

is it common for good but not great baseball players to reach 3000 hits? I was under the impression that 3000 hits was a feat worthy of a good deal of praise.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

is it common for good but not great baseball players to reach 3000 hits? I was under the impression that 3000 hits was a feat worthy of a good deal of praise.

I think his description of Jeter as good but not great is off but I agree with his overall argument. Jeter has only led the league in any major statistical category once yet he is talked about as one of the absolute greatest baseball players of all time. He is a surefire hof player yet the media overrates him in a number of ways. The most obvious is his 5 gold gloves. Advanced statistics show that Jeter makes the routine plays with tremendous regularity. However, his range is so poor that these statistics not only show him to be a poor defender, but the worst in the majors over the course of his career. In fact, when A-Rod joined the Yankees Jeter should have moved to third instead of A-Rod. It likely hurt the Yankees defense in those years having the superior defensive ss at 3rd.

The fact that he has more gg's than Ripken is an absolute joke and shows that the award is much more about being a media darling and a great all around hitter than fielding. The other big way Jeter is overrated is the credit he is given for the Yankees success. Not that he wasn't a great contributer, especially in October, but the media really glosses over how great those teams were as a whole. You'll never hear about Bernie Williams or Jorge Posada or any of the like even though at their best they were equal contributers to Jeter. This is shown when they say things like "Jeter-5 time champion" sorry, it's the Yankees who have been 5 time champs during Jeter's career, not him as an individual. In the end you've got a ss with a great bat but who gives many of those hits back to the opposition because of his poor range. Should he be in the hof? Without a doubt. Is he anywhere near the greatest baseball player of his generation? Hell no.

 

[The Underboss]

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?p=88103877#post88103877


New thread up since we're approaching 1K.