OT: Raise of the Jolly Roger: We goin' tankin'

[Empoleon8771]

I'm pretty convinced Chavis is the opening day 2B.

There's lots of intriguing guys simmering just below at AAA (Castro, Castillo if he's not at SS, Marcano, Bae) but Chavis will get first crack.

Yoshi and Vogey will be the 1B/DH though Greg Allen could get some run as well.

I think Chavis is only the opening day 2B if Cruz isn't starting the year in Pittsburgh. I'm still thinking we'll see Cruz at SS and Newman at 2B to start, and they'll only send Cruz down if his play warrants it.

 

[Coastal Kev]

I would have thought that Cutch would have been a no brainer for the organization.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

I think Chavis is only the opening day 2B if Cruz isn't starting the year in Pittsburgh. I'm still thinking we'll see Cruz at SS and Newman at 2B to start, and they'll only send Cruz down if his play warrants it.

Yes, this is a good point, although I actually think there's some chance Newman could be moved. We constantly joke about not wanting to see him, but he's at the point where he has an attractive set of skills and contract for a better team who will have him as a utility player. I am holding out some hope that he's gone once a little bit of dust settles with the FA market this week, though who knows.

I do think Cruz's play in spring training should absolutely dictate whether he gets a spot right away, and also that he should exclusively play shortstop. We already saw BC pump the brakes on the latter, and I worry that despite the half measures to stop service time manipulation, we're going to angle for the extra year and use injury + rotating some into the OF as the excuse.

That said, there still was really no reason to give him a cup of coffee last year, so you'd have to think he has some chance to win a job. I think as long as he looks fine in spring training games, we should just roll with the punches and have him be the starting shortstop. We're going to lose tons of games no matter what. Might as well thoroughly see what we have and adjust his playing time/position later into the season if necessary.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Yes, this is a good point, although I actually think there's some chance Newman could be moved. We constantly joke about not wanting to see him, but he's at the point where he has an attractive set of skills and contract for a better team who will have him as a utility player. I am holding out some hope that he's gone once a little bit of dust settles with the FA market this week, though who knows.

I do think Cruz's play in spring training should absolutely dictate whether he gets a spot right away, and also that he should exclusively play shortstop. We already saw BC pump the brakes on the latter, and I worry that despite the half measures to stop service time manipulation, we're going to angle for the extra year and use injury + rotating some into the OF as the excuse.

That said, there still was really no reason to give him a cup of coffee last year, so you'd have to think he has some chance to win a job. I think as long as he looks fine in spring training games, we should just roll with the punches and have him be the starting shortstop. We're going to lose tons of games no matter what. Might as well thoroughly see what we have and adjust his playing time/position later into the season if necessary.

Hard not to see how Castillo hit across multiple levels and orgs last year and not be intrigued.

For Cruz, we can and should ST-manipulate him. Plus who knows if he can actually play short. Still an open question. His arm is amazing but wild.

I want to put Newman away but I suppose we shall endure him for a while longer.

 

[Empoleon8771]

It's probably a scorching hot take among Pirates fans, but if Cruz can't stick at SS, I'd consider looking at moving Cruz to 3rd and exploring options with Hayes if Cruz can fit there. I think Cruz's profile fits extremely well as a 3rd baseman.

It's not something to worry about now because there are quite a few ifs there, but it's something I've thought of. The real world isn't OOTP, where Hayes 70 grade defense at 3B can translate into a 60 grade defense at SS, but I'd explore options to get more value out of Hayes defensively than what I think he could reasonably provide as a corner infielder.

 

[ChaosAgent]

It's probably a scorching hot take among Pirates fans, but if Cruz can't stick at SS, I'd consider looking at moving Cruz to 3rd and exploring options with Hayes if Cruz can fit there. I think Cruz's profile fits extremely well as a 3rd baseman.

It's not something to worry about now because there are quite a few ifs there, but it's something I've thought of. The real world isn't OOTP, where Hayes 70 grade defense at 3B can translate into a 60 grade defense at SS, but I'd explore options to get more value out of Hayes defensively than what I think he could reasonably provide as a corner infielder.

I like the outta the box thinking. I mean if Cruz can provide 30 HRs and .800 OPS from SS you put up with bad defense, but if we're in "throwing error every 3rd game" territory that can't stand.

I think Cruz's bat is actually more important than his glove in his development. Get him to the level of hitter to where he's fearsome in the lineup and value-add regardless of whether it's at short, third, RF, DH, wherever. A .850-.900 OPS guy.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

I would have thought that Cutch would have been a no brainer for the organization.

Milwaukee is going to the playoffs unless the cards improve their pitching even still they can easily get a wc

 

[DJ Spinoza]

For what it's worth, I remain fully on board the train of "Cruz is fine defensively at shortstop." The only actual issue that he has is the consistency of his throwing, but that's something that can be ironed out with practice. I've watched him a lot and there's no problem in terms of his quickness or ability to make defensive reads. As he gets older, this may very well change, and I'm open-minded enough to say that it's not a negative thing to have position flexibility for guys on the roster.

I would just roll him out there most of the time and make use of the DH to give him some breathers occasionally. In the end, it still comes back to the fact that we are tanking this year again. Let him get a ton of reps all year.

 

[ChaosAgent]

For what it's worth, I remain fully on board the train of "Cruz is fine defensively at shortstop." The only actual issue that he has is the consistency of his throwing, but that's something that can be ironed out with practice. I've watched him a lot and there's no problem in terms of his quickness or ability to make defensive reads. As he gets older, this may very well change, and I'm open-minded enough to say that it's not a negative thing to have position flexibility for guys on the roster.

I would just roll him out there most of the time and make use of the DH to give him some breathers occasionally. In the end, it still comes back to the fact that we are tanking this year again. Let him get a ton of reps all year.

I don't think throwing consistency is some small thing. A SS has a huge workload and if he's going to misfire a high % of the time then he can't stay there.

I mean, yeah keep working at it. We can't give up on him at SS especially because he has the athleticism as you said.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

Yeah, I don't mean to suggest that it's not anything to be concerned about, but I think so much of the chatter is still hung up on preconceptions that Cruz can't play shortstop because he's extremely tall and has 80-grade power or something. What I think gets constantly undersold about his game is his speed and quickness. There's definitely a question about how much we'll want to see him running, but unless he's just a disaster in terms of contact and getting on base, I think he can impact the game with SBs early on, too.

I could definitely see him moving to third base, but the creative flip with Hayes is still probably a little much. The most logical OF place to move him is CF due to the speed, but it's easier said than done to just learn how to be a good CF, and we already have one.

I think he should just play. We clearly have no aspirations in 2022, so let him get the bulk of the games and see what happens. I think the emphasis on positional versatility is a little bit overzealous... yeah, the Dodgers are able to do it to great effect, but the Dodgers also have a whole collection of elite core players, and so they are able to try and target very specific things from their part-time players. It could be a little bit oversimplistic, but I don't see the issue with just locking up Reynolds and Hayes and rolling Cruz out as the everyday SS for most games. That's a core group of players right there, and if Cruz struggles too much, then you can always transition him more fully into an outfield corner next season and beyond.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

It ain't happening, but if the Yankees wanted salary relief, this would be a pretty easy way to make the lineup deeper and further address the power problems of recent years without really blocking anyone. As long as you had health up and down the lineup and Cruz was a positive contributor, the lineup would end up looking somewhat decent.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

It ain't happening, but if the Yankees wanted salary relief, this would be a pretty easy way to make the lineup deeper and further address the power problems of recent years without really blocking anyone. As long as you had health up and down the lineup and Cruz was a positive contributor, the lineup would end up looking somewhat decent.

I like Voit, he is a great hitter and an okay 1B, but he is always hurt.

Torres could also be available... unless they are planning to start him over LeMahieu or put Torres back at SS... which is a disaster.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

I like Voit, he is a great hitter and an okay 1B, but he is always hurt.

Torres could also be available... unless they are planning to start him over LeMahieu or put Torres back at SS... which is a disaster.

Yeah, that's why I think Voit might come at an extreme discount, and maybe the Yankees would be more keen on sending him out of the AL and to a non-contending team.

Torres is interesting but IMO we already have a glut of middle infielders that needs to be cleared up (I honestly think there's a pretty solid chance Newman is traded very soon, before Opening Day), and Torres seems a little more like someone who the Yankees would want to bounce back before they thought about trading him.

To be honest, with the way things are going, the Pirates should probably be involved in trying to use some of the quantity of prospect capital that they have to consolidate and get better MLB players. For example, they might be able to put together a package that wouldn't sting too much in order to pry Manaea or Montas from Oakland. The problem is obviously that this is so decidedly un-Pirates, and the current plan just seems to more or less be to sit around and wait, hoping prospects pan out and mediocre competition give you passable players at other positions. Between free agency, the trade market, and the division, there's a lot of opportunity for the Pirates to get much better without sacrificing any "future" and we're just sitting on our hands.

 

[ImporterExporter]

It would actually be nice to see a middle of the order that put some fear into teams via power.

I personally see Cruz a leadoff hitter in the modern game, even with his crazy power ceiling. He runs so well that if his OBP is high enough, it's hard not to put him in the 1 hole, to maximize his chances to do damage. Ideally, if Hayes hits, he stays a 2, Reynolds a 3, and then you want a bopper in the 4 hole. Maybe Yoshi can be the guy over a full season. I'm not getting my hopes up but Voit would be a nice add as a potential 30-35 dinger type, provided he stayed healthy and got 450-500 AB's.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

Yeah, that's why I think Voit might come at an extreme discount, and maybe the Yankees would be more keen on sending him out of the AL and to a non-contending team.

Torres is interesting but IMO we already have a glut of middle infielders that needs to be cleared up (I honestly think there's a pretty solid chance Newman is traded very soon, before Opening Day), and Torres seems a little more like someone who the Yankees would want to bounce back before they thought about trading him.

To be honest, with the way things are going, the Pirates should probably be involved in trying to use some of the quantity of prospect capital that they have to consolidate and get better MLB players. For example, they might be able to put together a package that wouldn't sting too much in order to pry Manaea or Montas from Oakland. The problem is obviously that this is so decidedly un-Pirates, and the current plan just seems to more or less be to sit around and wait, hoping prospects pan out and mediocre competition give you passable players at other positions. Between free agency, the trade market, and the division, there's a lot of opportunity for the Pirates to get much better without sacrificing any "future" and we're just sitting on our hands.

Yeah, I'd love BC to be much more aggressive. I think we have nice building blocks already in the MLB or very near it (Reynolds, Hayes and Cruz). We should add to that core and try to win now. Not saying we would make the playoffs, but we have to move towards a winning mentality. I agree that there are moves and signings to be made to make the team more competitive without impacting the prospect pool too much. Honestly, with a few moves, we could play above ,500. Especially if we could get a SP or two.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

Like... tell me we could not match/exceed that?

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Like... tell me we could not match/exceed that?

Why would any free agent with options to go to good teams come here

 

[Scandale du Jour]

Why would any free agent with options to go to good teams come here

Fair point

 

[Empoleon8771]

At least the Pirates aren't the Athletics

 

[Scandale du Jour]

At least the Pirates aren't the Athletics

*knocks on wood*

Well, there were rumblings of a Reynolds trade... that would totally make us the A's

 

[Empoleon8771]

*knocks on wood*

Well, there were rumblings of a Reynolds trade... that would totally make us the A's

Honestly, I don't even think that would. I don't think the Pirates have ever done such a massive teardown of top tier talent like the As have done this year.

To end last year, the A's had Olson, Chapman, Marte and Bassit that are all gone, and it seems like they may still be trading Montas and Manaea as well. That's an incomprehensible tear down from what they were last year. That makes the Pirates trading McCutchen and Cole in the same off-season look like a walk in the park.

This off-season is shaping up to be the As basically trading McCutchen, Cole, Marte and possibly Taillon and Bell in one off-season.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

This is based on nothing other than pure gut feeling but just to put it out there: I think there's a non-zero chance that the Padres will trade for Reynolds.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Trading Reynolds to the Padres would be a disaster. Abrams scares the shit out of me. Little pop for a headliner and had a real meh year, despite the injury. Hard to get excited about him and don't think he's a top 10 prospect anymore. Which Gore are you getting if he comes? His star has faded greatly.

No need for Campusano. Robert Hassell was great in A, but then stunk in A+, albeit in a smaller sample size.

I'll be pissed if it's the Padres, and probably pissed unless we're getting Rodriguez back (Mariners are out after getting Winker anyway) or someone like Riley Greene or Anthony Volpe (Tigers aren't going to make that trade and highly doubt NY is moving Volpe for anyone) as headliners, with another 3-5 players being added.

 

[Factorial]

Like... tell me we could not match/exceed that?

Well worth the money given how many of the fans would react in a positive way. This ownership never fails to fail.

 

[Coastal Kev]

Well worth the money given how many of the fans would react in a positive way. This ownership never fails to fail.

it would have moved me into coming back to Pittsburgh for a baseball weekend