Raffi Torres Vs Martin Havlat

[Nighthock]

Is it just me, or does Havlat just lack emotion altogether this year? Last year he would score and we would see this:

This year he scores and you would think his dog just died.

 

[hohosaregood]

I think that groin injury is literally having life changing effects on him right now. His whole game was once based on his skills, speed, and tenacity. He then just made it a skill and speed game when the battling started to catch up to him. Now he doesn't even have the speed.

I think that if you've been doing and skating in the same way all your life and all of a sudden you can't do that, it's very disappointing. Goals and assists must be a hollow victory for him right now since he can't do it the way he really wants to.

 

[The Ice Hockey Dude]

I think that groin injury is literally having life changing effects on him right now. His whole game was once based on his skills, speed, and tenacity. He then just made it a skill and speed game when the battling started to catch up to him. Now he doesn't even have the speed.

I think that if you've been doing and skating in the same way all your life and all of a sudden you can't do that, it's very disappointing. Goals and assists must be a hollow victory for him right now since he can't do it the way he really wants to.

I have to agree, very sad situation for Havlat. I'm trying to take a positive outlook that he'll "get better", just not thinking it will happen.

 

[LocknessMonster*]

Torres brings so much more to the Sharks AINEC. Just watch a game with him in.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Torres brings so much more to the Sharks AINEC. Just watch a game with him in.

In their current versions he does but Havlat healthy and working properly is so much a better player than Torres. It's just too bad that like Boyle, we'll probably not see that player again.

 

[WantonAbandon]

Torres brings so much more to the Sharks AINEC. Just watch a game with him in.

Not too many of those... Plus what has a greater effect on a game... a hit or a game winning goal? Personally I think Torres is part of a dieing breed. He will always have a leash on him and as the suspensions and the games physical toll continues his returns will diminish

 

[LocknessMonster*]

Not too many of those... Plus what has a greater effect on a game... a hit or a game winning goal? Personally I think Torres is part of a dieing breed. He will always have a leash on him and as the suspensions and the games physical toll continues his returns will diminish

Havlat has barely any production, .38 Points per game.

Torres in the 5 games he has played this season is at a point per game.

Torres has a greater effect on the game. I'm a little shocked you're even arguing this. Do you watch the games with Raffi in?

 

[Lateralis]

Not sure what games some of the people are watching here but, Torres has brought a lot more to the table than Havlat. Torres has been a great fit on this team, Havlat has been mainly unnoticeable. I mean Havlat was injured coming off the freaking bench!!

 

[OrrNumber4]

Torres is that productive 3rd-liner with intangibles that every team loves (aside from the shenanigans). Frankly, if he was better on the PP and got more PP time, he'd probably be a lock for 40 points/year even on the third line.

Havlat-of-old is that multi-talented, speedy, tenacious winger that teams absolutely love. More valuable than a Torres-type, for sure. But Havlat-lately isn't at all that. Too much of a perimeter player who lacks explosiveness.

 

[one2gamble]

The only thing we should be looking at is production and frankly they have both been terrible acquisitions by that measure. Of course, that could easily change for both players, though Torres is more likely to have an impact if he can ever skate again.

 

[SJGoalie32]

Getting injured is getting injured. Both are having that issue in San Jose. You can't do one and not the other...it's hypocritical.

I disagree. I do think there is a significant difference between someone who gets seriously injured once and someone who has a lengthy history of getting injured.

A person who has one significant injury is (after a full and complete recovery) unlikely to miss additional future games. A person who is injury-prone likely will miss future games. It's not just a question of how many games they have missed, it's a question of how many games they are likely to miss in the future. Calculating that future value is important.

I don't think Torres is injury-prone.....though for what it's worth, he is suspension-prone. Which, like Havlat's penchant for injuries, is something that should be taken into account when assessing his value to the team. Both seem to have issues with staying in the lineu, but (loathed as I am to admit this) Torres is a better value.

 

[SJGoalie32]

Torres has a cap hit of 2 million. How sure are you that Torres can play in 4 seven game series without being injured or suspended?

.......

That "goal scorer" has scored five goals for the Sharks.

In only 16 games. That's the pace of a 25-goal scorer. Generally playing on a 3rd line, with the ability to function well on just about any line. Making just $2 mil.

No, I'm not confident in Torres' ability to avoid further suspension (or injury) over several rounds of playoffs. But when he is in the lineup, he is a dramatic upgrade over comparable salary guys like Burish and Kennedy.

No, I'm not confident that Torres can stay in the lineup. But that uncertainty is why the Sharks were able to get a typical 15-20 goal scoring guy like that for a mid-round pick and just a $2 mil cap hit.

I don't like the guy, but I'm okay with the Sharks gambling $2 mil of cap space on a guy like that. At his best, he's the guy Havlat should have been. At his worst, he's a faster Adam Burish. $2 mil is a perfectly reasonable value for a guy with a ton of upside who comes with a ton of downside. And if he never plays even one game, there are still literally hundreds of cheap/easily attainable guys who can fill in decently on a bottom-6 forward line.

$5 mil is NOT a reasonable value or gamble. For $5 mil in cap space, you need a player who can be consistently relied upon to give you Top 6 minutes and putting up 25 goals. Havlat does not provide that value. You don't want to bet $5 mil in cap space on gambling on a role that can't be easily replaced. I don't hate Havlat, he's not a whipping boy for me, but on the question of value he hasn't provided it and he has certainly provided less value than Torres.

 

[SJGoalie32]

you try coming back and playing at a top-6 level after everything between your legs has been surgically reconstructed

You're right. I probably wouldn't be able to play at a Top-6 level after all those surgeries either (especially since I was never personally that good a forward even without the surgeries). Which is probably why its a good thing the Sharks aren't paying me $5 million/year to stay healthy while playing ice hockey.

Although, if the Sharks want to pay me $5 million both this year and next year, I will gladly accept all the public fan ridicule while I watch all the games from the press box.....as long as the check clears. Hell, I'll even do it for just $4 million/year! (Call me, DW!)

Like most fans, I don't hate Havlat.....I just hate that the Sharks are paying him money, giving him a roster spot, and (when in the lineup) giving him ice time that could be going to other players. That's not necessarily his fault, but that's the reality that comes when you cash a large paycheck for a service you were unable to provide.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I disagree. I do think there is a significant difference between someone who gets seriously injured once and someone who has a lengthy history of getting injured.

A person who has one significant injury is (after a full and complete recovery) unlikely to miss additional future games. A person who is injury-prone likely will miss future games. It's not just a question of how many games they have missed, it's a question of how many games they are likely to miss in the future. Calculating that future value is important.

I don't think Torres is injury-prone.....though for what it's worth, he is suspension-prone. Which, like Havlat's penchant for injuries, is something that should be taken into account when assessing his value to the team. Both seem to have issues with staying in the lineu, but (loathed as I am to admit this) Torres is a better value.

Well, at this point in his career Torres has had two major knee surgeries so he's under the same microscope with regards to that context as Havlat is. So far it's really difficult to say that either has better value over the other because neither have been in the lineup for this team for very long. Both have reputations for being good players in the lineup but since neither can see the ice for very long, it's tough to verify that stance. Both have shown flashes of being an impact player at points. Havlat's first season with us we were not nearly as deep up front and he played very well when he was in and the team's record reflected that.

Quite frankly, neither would be truly missed if they were sent packing in the off-season due to the emergence of a few players like Hertl, Nieto, and Wingels.

 

[weastern bias]

Is it just me, or does Havlat just lack emotion altogether this year? Last year he would score and we would see this:

This year he scores and you would think his dog just died.

He just really liked orange

You're right. I probably wouldn't be able to play at a Top-6 level after all those surgeries either (especially since I was never personally that good a forward even without the surgeries). Which is probably why its a good thing the Sharks aren't paying me $5 million/year to stay healthy while playing ice hockey.

Although, if the Sharks want to pay me $5 million both this year and next year, I will gladly accept all the public fan ridicule while I watch all the games from the press box.....as long as the check clears. Hell, I'll even do it for just $4 million/year! (Call me, DW!)

Like most fans, I don't hate Havlat.....I just hate that the Sharks are paying him money, giving him a roster spot, and (when in the lineup) giving him ice time that could be going to other players. That's not necessarily his fault, but that's the reality that comes when you cash a large paycheck for a service you were unable to provide.

Excellent post

Covers all the bases, and I couldn't have said it better myself

 

[Sleepy]

You're right. I probably wouldn't be able to play at a Top-6 level after all those surgeries either (especially since I was never personally that good a forward even without the surgeries). Which is probably why its a good thing the Sharks aren't paying me $5 million/year to stay healthy while playing ice hockey.

Although, if the Sharks want to pay me $5 million both this year and next year, I will gladly accept all the public fan ridicule while I watch all the games from the press box.....as long as the check clears. Hell, I'll even do it for just $4 million/year! (Call me, DW!)

Like most fans, I don't hate Havlat.....I just hate that the Sharks are paying him money, giving him a roster spot, and (when in the lineup) giving him ice time that could be going to other players. That's not necessarily his fault, but that's the reality that comes when you cash a large paycheck for a service you were unable to provide.

Well said. I like Havlat, but that contract is awful. At least he's played better the last couple games. All will be forgiven if he does what he's capable of in the playoffs.

 

[OrrNumber4]

You're right. I probably wouldn't be able to play at a Top-6 level after all those surgeries either (especially since I was never personally that good a forward even without the surgeries). Which is probably why its a good thing the Sharks aren't paying me $5 million/year to stay healthy while playing ice hockey.

Although, if the Sharks want to pay me $5 million both this year and next year, I will gladly accept all the public fan ridicule while I watch all the games from the press box.....as long as the check clears. Hell, I'll even do it for just $4 million/year! (Call me, DW!)

Like most fans, I don't hate Havlat.....I just hate that the Sharks are paying him money, giving him a roster spot, and (when in the lineup) giving him ice time that could be going to other players. That's not necessarily his fault, but that's the reality that comes when you cash a large paycheck for a service you were unable to provide.

Well-said.

In defense of Havlat...he is injured. And he got that injury playing hockey. He isn't a Brad Richards or a Vincent Lecavalier who just can't live up to his contract.

 

[hockeyball]

Seriously, if Havlat can have an impact in the playoffs and stay healthy through the majority of it all is forgiven. Hell, I'd even be against buying him out if he's an impact player in the playoffs.

 

[Timos Death Stare]

Seriously, if Havlat can have an impact in the playoffs and stay healthy through the majority of it all is forgiven. Hell, I'd even be against buying him out if he's an impact player in the playoffs.

Havlat will be our Zito.... bank on it guys!

 

[The Ice Hockey Dude]

Seriously, if Havlat can have an impact in the playoffs and stay healthy through the majority of it all is forgiven. Hell, I'd even be against buying him out if he's an impact player in the playoffs.

I have to agree with this. DW has stated Havlat is here because he's a known playoff performer.. if he does play like the impact player he has been i'll be all for passing on the buy out... i'd still move / trade him.. sell high.

 

[weastern bias]

With all that's already been said, I still take Havlat over Heatley 7 days a week

Twice on Sundays

 

[The Ice Hockey Dude]

With all that's already been said, I still take Havlat over Heatley 7 days a week

Twice on Sundays

Yea, I think Havlat is better defensively, Heathly is better offensively. I take D over O for these two.

 

[Insignia]

Is Havlat playing with an injury that slows his speed or did he permanently lose a few steps sometime recently.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Is Havlat playing with an injury that slows his speed or did he permanently lose a few steps sometime recently.

He hasn't had his speed since he came back from the pelvic reconstruction surgery. He may not ever get it back. He's shown flashes of it but it's not consistent.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I think the team has found a way to get Torres back into the lineup for next Thursday against the Kings with Burish's injury. They will have to call up a forward between now and then though.