Raffi Torres Vs Martin Havlat

[WantonAbandon]

You know, I feel like stirring the pot a bit

I realize that Havlat is a favorite whipping boy around here. Apparently one of the main arguments is that he gets injured all the time, but have any of you ever thought about comparing him to someone with truculence and determination? Intangibles and all that crap?

So... Lets begin:

Havlat has played in 117 games in the regular season out of a total out of a total of 201 regular season games. Havlat has played 58% of the time.

Havlat played in 7 out of 17 playoff games, but lets only count six. So Havlat played in 38% percent of playoff games

This equates to 56% in total



Torres played in 16 games out of a total of 84 games possible. This equates to 19%.

Torres played in 5 playoff games out of a total of 12 possible. This equates to 42%

This equates to 22% in total.

Havlat has has averaged 20 points in the regular season for the Sharks and 2 points in the playoffs

Torres has averaged 6 points in the regular season and 1 point in the playoffs.

So who has been better for the Sharks? Go ahead and consider cap hit if you like. How much is a hockey check worth?

Click to read more...

 

[LocknessMonster*]

I'm sorry, but have you seen what Torres brings to each game?

His physicality and heavy hits change the dynamic of the game, it wears the other team out. When he's out there with the third line grinders we smack the snot out of other teams. It's something that will be essential in a 7 game series (ie the playoffs).

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here.

Havlat's contract is for 5 million

Torres's contract is for 1.75 million.

Torres is far and away the better bang for your buck.

 

[Oppa]

Torres is a goal scorer and a physical presence. Nuff said.

 

[SactoShark]

If you made this between Havlat and Heatley, it would be a much better case.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

To me it is simpler than that. I am going to look at the roles they were bought in for.

Torres was supposed to bring in a physical presence and add scoring to the bottom 6. He has done exactly that.

Havlat was supposed to add playmaking and get points as a top-6 player. He has not quite done that at the level expected for a top-6 player. Injuries and cap hit aside, he has just not fit that well into the Sharks style of hockey.

 

[magic school bus]

Neither one is there when we need them, so you have a point.

 

[WantonAbandon]

I'm sorry, but have you seen what Torres brings to each game?

His physicality and heavy hits change the dynamic of the game, it wears the other team out. When he's out there with the third line grinders we smack the snot out of other teams. It's something that will be essential in a 7 game series (ie the playoffs).

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here.

Havlat's contract is for 5 million

Torres's contract is for 1.75 million.

Torres is far and away the better bang for your buck.

Torres has a cap hit of 2 million. How sure are you that Torres can play in 4 seven game series without being injured or suspended? The league sees things a little different now.

Torres is a goal scorer and a physical presence. Nuff said.

That "goal scorer" has scored five goals for the Sharks.

If you made this between Havlat and Heatley, it would be a much better case.

Why? Heatley would have at least played in more games.

To me it is simpler than that. I am going to look at the roles they were bought in for.

Torres was supposed to bring in a physical presence and add scoring to the bottom 6. He has done exactly that.

Havlat was supposed to add playmaking and get points as a top-6 player. He has not quite done that at the level expected for a top-6 player. Injuries and cap hit aside, he has just not fit that well into the Sharks style of hockey.

How does Torres complete the role he was brought in for in the press box?

 

[treefiddy]

This really is not even an argument. Neither has brought their requested value to the team.

 

[do0glas]

Neither of them have impacted our playoffs so it's moot right now.

 

[Dragon Priest]

They simply both should be in the line up come playoff time and Burish should be a scratch.

 

[bigwillie]

Comparing percentages of games played is truly ridiculous when you present those stats without any context whatsoever.

Havlat has been with the Sharks for multiple seasons now and has had numerous different injuries. He plays 5 games at a time before getting injured, yet again.

This is Torres' first full season as a Shark, and he's suffered one major injury that has put him on the sidelines for an extended period of time.

Comparing Havlat's hundred little bumps and bruises to Torres' one major surgery is a ludicrous comparison.

On top of that, like Fistfullofbeer said, Havlat was brought in to put up points, Torres to add toughness and chip in offense here and there. Havlat hasn't done jack ****, Torres, when in the lineup, has done exactly what he was brought in for.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

Torres has a cap hit of 2 million. How sure are you that Torres can play in 4 seven game series without being injured or suspended? The league sees things a little different now.

That "goal scorer" has scored five goals for the Sharks.

Why? Heatley would have at least played in more games.

How does Torres complete the role he was brought in for in the press box?

I was obviously talking about the roles they are supposed to play when they are on the ice. If you want to make it about ice time and games played, then Havlat has not served the role he was acquired for given more chances than what Torres has got.

If you have watched the games in which Torres has played, you can see what Torres brings to the team and how the team plays with him in the lineup.

 

[weastern bias]

Biggest difference:

When Torres is out of the lineup, the team plays noticeably worse

When Havlat is out of the lineup, there's no discernible difference in the team's quality of play

Sure, Torres doesn't play as often as we'd hope, but unlike Havlat, I actually miss him when he's a scratch

 

[Nighthock]

Raffi makes better faces

 

[spintops]

I can't use Raffi's injury against him either, it's not like he is missing games every year like Havlat. Freak collision, Havlat gets hurt getting out of bed in the morning.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I can't use Raffi's injury against him either, it's not like he is missing games every year like Havlat. Freak collision, Havlat gets hurt getting out of bed in the morning.

Getting injured is getting injured. Both are having that issue in San Jose. You can't do one and not the other...it's hypocritical.

 

[bigwillie]

Getting injured is getting injured. Both are having that issue in San Jose. You can't do one and not the other...it's hypocritical.

There's an obvious difference between having one major surgery and a long layoff afterward and the constant, never-ending stream of ailments that are consistently keeping Havlat out.

Torres had a freak accident. Havlat is injury prone.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

There's an obvious difference between having one major surgery and a long layoff afterward and the constant, never-ending stream of ailments that are consistently keeping Havlat out.

Torres had a freak accident. Havlat is injury prone.

Havlat had a freak accident for the hamstring and a pelvic reconstruction surgery. The only difference is one had one more freak injury than the other but both have missed significant time.

 

[sharski]

Havlat gets way, way too much personal hate IMO

you try coming back and playing at a top-6 level after everything between your legs has been surgically reconstructed

 

[bigwillie]

Havlat had a freak accident for the hamstring and a pelvic reconstruction surgery. The only difference is one had one more freak injury than the other but both have missed significant time.

Havlat's injury history w/ SJ:

2014/01/16 Missed 11 games (lower body injury).
2013/12/31 Lower body injury, injured reserve.
2013/12/23 Lower body injury, sidelined indefinitely.
2013/12/10 Missed 1 game (undisclosed).
2013/12/08 Undisclosed, day-to-day.
2013/10/30 Missed 12 games (groin surgery).
2013/10/03 Groin surgery, sidelined indefinitely.
2013/05/28 Missed the last 4 playoff games (lower body injury).
2013/05/21 Lower body injury, day-to-day.
2013/05/18 Missed the last 5 playoff games (lower body injury).
2013/05/03 Lower body injury, day-to-day.
2013/05/01 Missed the last regular season game (undisclosed).
2013/04/27 Undisclosed, day-to-day.
2013/03/18 Missed 7 games (lower body injury).
2013/03/09 Lower body injury, injured reserve.
2013/03/05 Lower body injury, day-to-day.
2012/03/15 Missed 39 games (lower body injury).
2011/12/21 Lower body injury, injured reserve.
2011/10/21 Missed 4 games (shoulder surgery).
2011/10/06 Shoulder surgery, injured reserve.

vs.

Torres' injury history, including suspensions, w/ SJ:

2014/03/11 General soreness, day-to-day.
2014/02/26 Missed 59 games (right knee injury).
2013/09/30 Right knee injury, injured reserve.
2013/05/28 Missed the last 6 playoff games (suspended by nhl).
2013/05/16 Suspended by the NHL for the remainder of Round 2 against the Los Angeles Kings.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Havlat's injury history w/ SJ:

2014/01/16 Missed 11 games (lower body injury).
2013/12/31 Lower body injury, injured reserve.
2013/12/23 Lower body injury, sidelined indefinitely.
2013/12/10 Missed 1 game (undisclosed).
2013/12/08 Undisclosed, day-to-day.
2013/10/30 Missed 12 games (groin surgery).
2013/10/03 Groin surgery, sidelined indefinitely.
2013/05/28 Missed the last 4 playoff games (lower body injury).
2013/05/21 Lower body injury, day-to-day.
2013/05/18 Missed the last 5 playoff games (lower body injury).
2013/05/03 Lower body injury, day-to-day.
2013/05/01 Missed the last regular season game (undisclosed).
2013/04/27 Undisclosed, day-to-day.
2013/03/18 Missed 7 games (lower body injury).
2013/03/09 Lower body injury, injured reserve.
2013/03/05 Lower body injury, day-to-day.
2012/03/15 Missed 39 games (lower body injury).
2011/12/21 Lower body injury, injured reserve.
2011/10/21 Missed 4 games (shoulder surgery).
2011/10/06 Shoulder surgery, injured reserve.

vs.

Torres' injury history, including suspensions, w/ SJ:

2014/03/11 General soreness, day-to-day.
2014/02/26 Missed 59 games (right knee injury).
2013/09/30 Right knee injury, injured reserve.
2013/05/28 Missed the last 6 playoff games (suspended by nhl).
2013/05/16 Suspended by the NHL for the remainder of Round 2 against the Los Angeles Kings.

Considering the lack of context behind the injuries, that doesn't tell you much of anything other than both missing significant time. A lot of Havlat's lower body injuries were pretty much the same thing.

 

[bigwillie]

Considering the lack of context behind the injuries, that doesn't tell you much of anything other than both missing significant time. A lot of Havlat's lower body injuries were pretty much the same thing.

It's the fact Havlat is constantly back from injury and then right back out again that frustrates me personally. Torres came back and decided to sit again, true, but Havlat's in for 5 games, out for 10 schedule that has been ongoing for over 2 years now is starting to wear on me, and plenty of other fans.

 

[WantonAbandon]

It's the fact Havlat is constantly back from injury and then right back out again that frustrates me personally. Torres came back and decided to sit again, true, but Havlat's in for 5 games, out for 10 schedule that has been ongoing for over 2 years now is starting to wear on me, and plenty of other fans.

And through it all Havlat is still able to play far more of the games he could have played in then Torres has been able to.

 

[do0glas]

I think the narrative from the coaches and players on what Torres brings versus what they say or rather don't say about Marty is enough for me.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

It's the fact Havlat is constantly back from injury and then right back out again that frustrates me personally. Torres came back and decided to sit again, true, but Havlat's in for 5 games, out for 10 schedule that has been ongoing for over 2 years now is starting to wear on me, and plenty of other fans.

You're exaggerating it because of that frustration and it only makes it worse. There's a few of the times where he was sitting that it was not likely him actually being injured that kept him out.