Confirmed with Link: Quincey Re-Signed, 2yrs/$4.25 AAV

[Fugu]

You raise a good point about playing him with a rookie but I have a lot of confidence in Ouellet/Marchenko. Both players are safe, mobile and intelligent add in Marchenko's handedness and I have faith that it can be a manageable pairing.

What you have over looked is the fact that we have less room in our top 4. Ericsson missed half the year, and as the season wore on Smith seemed to establish himself as a legit top 4 Dman. DDK, Ericsson and Kronwall are all locks to our top 4. Does Babs have enough confidence to play Smith in that group? His actions in the playoffs suggested so as he had more even strength ice time than Quincey.

I'd feel much more comfortable with the Wings putting Quincey out with one of these rookies than Kindl.

If Holland can actually swing a trade that gives them someone superior that's able to play top 2, so be it. We can re-organize the bodies somehow, and/or wait for injury call-ups. I think we all agree that he (and Babs needs to listen) needs to call up a couple prospects and get them some NHL IT.

 

[InjuredChoker]

So one rookie and Kindl and Lashoff on the bottom grouping? That makes the team much, much better.

smith, ericsson, kronwall, dekeyser form the top 4. one rookie and then another or some depth signing. it won't make us much better now (if at all, willing to admit that) but it prepares us better for next season and future seasons.

 

[Fugu]

smith, ericsson, kronwall, dekeyser form the top 4. one rookie and then another or some depth signing. it won't make us much better now (if at all, willing to admit that) but it prepares us better for next season and future seasons.

Holland can trade, waive or buyout the players below Quincey on the depth chart.

Would you want Kindl out for 18-19 min/gm ES; and then on the PK? Lashoff?

Are you suggesting one of the prospects could come in and play 18-20 min per game right off the bat?

 

[hot dog]

Holland can trade, waive or buyout the players below Quincey on the depth chart.

Would you want Kindl out for 18-19 min/gm ES; and then on the PK? Lashoff?

Are you suggesting one of the prospects could come in and play 18-20 min per game right off the bat?

Top six last year:
Kronwall 24:19
DD 21:38
E 21:15
Quincey: 20:48
Smith 18:23
Kindl 17:14

Smith takes extra KFQ minutes, UFA replacement for Smith's, rookie for Kindl's minus PP time. I think that's more than doable.

 

[Frk It]

Holland can trade, waive or buyout the players below Quincey on the depth chart.

Would you want Kindl out for 18-19 min/gm ES; and then on the PK? Lashoff?

Are you suggesting one of the prospects could come in and play 18-20 min per game right off the bat?

I think Ouellet could play his minutes and do better. Smarter player, and easier to play with. But it might make sense for him to try to develop more offensively.

 

[Heaton]

Holland can trade, waive or buyout the players below Quincey on the depth chart.

Would you want Kindl out for 18-19 min/gm ES; and then on the PK? Lashoff?

Are you suggesting one of the prospects could come in and play 18-20 min per game right off the bat?

Yes.

 

[bababooeyII]

Yes.

Exactly. If anyone recalls Dekeyser stepped in and played 20 minutes a night, or close to it.

 

[14ari13]

Exactly. If anyone recalls Dekeyser stepped in and played 20 minutes a night, or close to it.

But it was DeKeyser. DeKeyser was our 2nd best Dman last season.
I am not sure any of our prospects can come nearly as close.

 

[Shaman464]

Exactly. If anyone recalls Dekeyser stepped in and played 20 minutes a night, or close to it.

Dekeyser also 3-4 years older than the other prospects and played in the CCHA, not the CHL.

 

[bababooeyII]

Yes.

But it was DeKeyser. DeKeyser was our 2nd best Dman last season.
I am not sure any of our prospects can come nearly as close.

How do you know? No one expected DD to step in and be as effective as he was.

 

[Heaton]

How do you know? No one expected DD to step in and be as effective as he was.

It's one of two things.

1. The prospects just aren't that good
2. You're afraid to give them a chance

If it's #1, that's a whole different story. But I think it's #2, they're ready and if they aren't? There's always players on Quincey's average level that are available. And even if they aren't, big deal, we don't lose much not having a borderline top 4 guy in the lineup.

 

[14ari13]

How do you know? No one expected DD to step in and be as effective as he was.

The prospects are very overated on this board. Many posters turn out bust.

 

[Chance on Chance]

Dekeyser also 3-4 years older than the other prospects and played in the CCHA, not the CHL.

He was 23 when he came to the wings and Backman will be 22 by the season start and played against men in the SEL. Marchanko is 22 now and will turn 23 during the season and played against men in the KHL.

 

[Fugu]

Top six last year:
Kronwall 24:19
DD 21:38
E 21:15
Quincey: 20:48
Smith 18:23
Kindl 17:14

Smith takes extra KFQ minutes, UFA replacement for Smith's, rookie for Kindl's minus PP time. I think that's more than doable.

Which UFA?

Smith and Q are used differently, which I already posted about like 3x time now.

Yes.

I would say that I have no idea. The potential is there, but right out of the gate? Awfully risky.

And if a prospect is lights out better than 2-3 guys ahead of him, you just know Babs will want to play him.

 

[Fugu]

It's one of two things.

1. The prospects just aren't that good
2. You're afraid to give them a chance

If it's #1, that's a whole different story. But I think it's #2, they're ready and if they aren't? There's always players on Quincey's average level that are available. And even if they aren't, big deal, we don't lose much not having a borderline top 4 guy in the lineup.

Yes, to all of the above, but since you don't for sure, you need to have a solid plan in place.

Plan on working them in... more aggressively than they have in the past. However, if a prospect can't hack 20 min or more right away, does that mean they're crap? You also risk ruining the kid if you put too much on them too soon.

So it's possible that one could be THAT good; or that in 1-2 years they'll be THAT good, or better, but you can't just put all your eggs into that same basket.

 

[Heaton]

I would say that I have no idea. The potential is there, but right out of the gate? Awfully risky.

And if a prospect is lights out better than 2-3 guys ahead of him, you just know Babs will want to play him.

I don't think so, was Quincey's 'resurgence' the real deal or just an aberration of the team improving around him? Who knows. We've seen other teams put a ton of faith in their rookie defenseman instead of going with a guy who has already plateau'd. We saw Pittsburgh do it last year, we saw Anaheim do it last year, we've seen Boston do it.

Like I said, what's the risk? Babcock was hesitant to play a lot of the young guys, guess what? He's not hesitant anymore. It took a few games for DeKeyser to get in the lineup, Babcock called him our MVP at times last year.

Regardless, Holland very rarely gives Babcock what he wants anyway and Babcock finds a way to make it work. So do what's best long term, Quincey isn't it. Neither is Kindl or Lashoff, so get rid of them too.

Top 4:
Kronwall, Ericsson, Smith, DeKeyser

Bottom 2: Rookie, Kindl or Rookie, UFA on 1 year deal. Hell, we all know that if something happens a serviceable guy will always be available in October. Or two rookies, split up Kronwall, Ericsson, DeKeyser on each line. These aren't green rookies, they have plenty of experience in the AHL.

 

[Frk It]

Which UFA?

Smith and Q are used differently, which I already posted about like 3x time now.




I would say that I have no idea. The potential is there, but right out of the gate? Awfully risky.

And if a prospect is lights out better than 2-3 guys ahead of him, you just know Babs will want to play him.

How is what Quincey did over the last 2 years so hard to replace.

Yeah he logged a lot of minutes on paper, but he didn't do **** with those minutes. His play in his own end is awful unless he's paired with our best defensive defenseman, and he produces no points.

It's not hard to replace that. For the first half of the season Quincey was the worst defenseman on the roster. Worse than Kindl. Worse than Lashoff.

Ouellet and Marchenko could handle his role, because he can't even play his role as good as you're making it out to be.

 

[Fugu]

How is what Quincey did over the last 2 years so hard to replace.

Yeah he logged a lot of minutes on paper, but he didn't do **** with those minutes. His play in his own end is awful unless he's pairs with our best defensive defenseman, and he produces no points.

It's not hard to replace that. For the first half of the season Quincey was the worst defenseman on the roster. Worse thank Kindl. Worse than Lashoff.

Ouellet and Marchenko could handle his role, because he can't even play his role as good as you're making it out to be.

Right. How do you arrive at these conclusions?


And how do you figure Ouellet and Marchenko could handle 20 min per game in the NHL right now?

 

[Heaton]

Right. How do you arrive at these conclusions?


And how do you figure Ouellet and Marchenko could handle 20 min per game in the NHL right now?

Same way everyone figured that Hudler, Filppula, Nyquist, Tatar etc... were all ready for a top 6 role before they did it. And people were pretty much right.

You take the way they'll be used, factor in their AHL success and what we've seen from limited time in call ups and come to the conclusion that their mistakes can't be worse than Quincey's and their upside, at least right now, is much higher.

 

[Fugu]

I don't think so, was Quincey's 'resurgence' the real deal or just an aberration of the team improving around him? Who knows. We've seen other teams put a ton of faith in their rookie defenseman instead of going with a guy who has already plateau'd. We saw Pittsburgh do it last year, we saw Anaheim do it last year, we've seen Boston do it.

Like I said, what's the risk? Babcock was hesitant to play a lot of the young guys, guess what? He's not hesitant anymore. It took a few games for DeKeyser to get in the lineup, Babcock called him our MVP at times last year.

Regardless, Holland very rarely gives Babcock what he wants anyway and Babcock finds a way to make it work. So do what's best long term, Quincey isn't it. Neither is Kindl or Lashoff, so get rid of them too.

Top 4:
Kronwall, Ericsson, Smith, DeKeyser

Bottom 2: Rookie, Kindl or Rookie, UFA on 1 year deal. Hell, we all know that if something happens a serviceable guy will always be available in October. Or two rookies, split up Kronwall, Ericsson, DeKeyser on each line. These aren't green rookies, they have plenty of experience in the AHL.

And another thing. For all the love this board gives DD, he was one of our weakest guys in the playoffs. That's where his inexperience really started showing.

There aren't that many elite D in the NHL, and unfortunately for the Wings, we really don't have any. Kronwall is pretty good, except for his defensive collapses, and isn't really elite offensively. Then you get to sort out the rest of them since you need 6-7 bodies. The standards this board has for defense are at best unrealistic. I'm just trying to come up with the best grouping of guys we actually DO have and have a realistic shot at signing.

 

[Flowah]

It's hard to say objectively if he's worse than Kindl/Lashoff. Kindl and Lashoff were more sheltered that's for sure.

But when you look at things like penalty differential, P/60, possession stats, he's below at least Kindl in all those things, and barely above Lashoff.

But who knows if he would have been better had he been as sheltered as Kindl. Maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't. But the stats show he was, to me, clearly the worst out of the top4 whenever he played there. Below E, Kronwall, DD, and yes even Smith.

 

[Chance on Chance]

Right. How do you arrive at these conclusions?


And how do you figure Ouellet and Marchenko could handle 20 min per game in the NHL right now?

they wont need 20 min an night. At what point should we start bringing these Dmen in then? When they cant pass through waivers anymore?

 

[Fugu]

Same way everyone figured that Hudler, Filppula, Nyquist, Tatar etc... were all ready for a top 6 role before they did it. And people were pretty much right.

You take the way they'll be used, factor in their AHL success and what we've seen from limited time in call ups and come to the conclusion that their mistakes can't be worse than Quincey's and their upside, at least right now, is much higher.

Nah, don't buy it. We saw a bunch of Smitty which is why some of us were screaming to get him up-- and work him in. We haven't seen much of these other guys, but more importantly, defensemen take a lot longer to develop. Forwards? Yes. Peak in their early 20s. Defensemen in their late 20s. You want to throw these kids in to a shark tank, basically.

Ericsson and Kindl were given YEARS to develop. One worked out. The other one is blocking the kids you guys believe are better today. I think the potential is there, but I wouldn't want to be the person betting everything on that being the case.

 

[Heaton]

And another thing. For all the love this board gives DD, he was one of our weakest guys in the playoffs. That's where his inexperience really started showing.

There aren't that many elite D in the NHL, and unfortunately for the Wings, we really don't have any. Kronwall is pretty good, except for his defensive collapses, and isn't really elite offensively. Then you get to sort out the rest of them since you need 6-7 bodies. The standards this board has for defense are at best unrealistic. I'm just trying to come up with the best grouping of guys we actually DO have and have a realistic shot at signing.

Best group at doing what? The idea is to improve and if we're not taking a shot at the cup, it's better to try and build for the future. Signing Quincey and playing Kindl/Lashoff does nothing.

So we bring up 2 rookie D and plug them in right away and they fail during the regular season, so what? What have we lost? What expectations are we failing to meet? Send a guy down who can't hack it, trade or sign one of the serviceable veterans that are always available and reassess next year.

Signing Quincey has no point other than filling a vacant spot on a defense that isn't really going to improve outside of Smith and DeKeyser's development who both should be rounding into form this year anyway.

 

[Fugu]

they wont need 20 min an night. At what point should we start bringing these Dmen in then? When they cant pass through waivers anymore?

That was my original question. Thank you.

I have to run out for a bit, but start penciling in minutes per defenseman, leaving out Quincey. Let me see who you're putting out on the ice, and for how long and which situations.