Question regarding Graf Skates

[nystromshairstylist]

So yeah, basically as you can tell by this thread, a limited number of people have positive experiences with Graf... and they are typically the ones that know everyone else that have positive experiences.

Truthfully, I haven't met anyone who has had a bad experience with their Grafs...mine have been fine, so I personally cannot complain....

But, given how I've defended them in this thread, I can expect with my luck they will fall apart next week - and you all will get to smack me for it, I just know it...

 

[Heat McManus]

Wellll....some people did say that Graf is intentionally screwing their customers over, ie., committing fraud - that's powerful stuff...



LOL. While his offices were very close by to mine, most of his biggest investors came from a Palm Beach country club, and the last time I checked my map that town is located in FLORIDA

So there ya go....

It is powerful stuff. And I guess theoretically Graf could sue. But I think they'd have a few other places on their list before HFBoards if that was the route they were going to take. Also, probably counter-active. Sue a message board because they haven't honored some warranties? Something tells me they're not going to do that.

Also, I said "a lot" not "most". And I'm sure all of those Palm Beachers have lived in FLA their entire lives. Because nobody from NY ever retired and went to live down there.

 

[The ORB]

First off it's a random question so here it goes.

Is it just me or has Graf been a pretty common skate that players are using? Im not referring to NHL players but the common house leagues and etc. I went into a few Pro Shops here in Southern California a.k.a Anaheim Ice, Westminster Ice, Glacial Gardens etc and all they were carrying was Graf skates, and nothing else.

So the question is why? is it because Graf is a local California brand?, is it because a lot of people find it as the superior of all skates? or is there possibly another reason? Can some of you put insight on this, thank you!

Just a follow up to this thread, trying to explain why perhaps some stores are so invested in Graf.

So my daughter has finally outgrown her youth Graf 301s and now that the rep season is over I wanted to get her next pair. She could still just about wear her current Grafs for Spring hockey and doesn't do too much skating in the summer, so there was no urgent rush. I wanted to take my time, have her try everything thing on with an open mind and get what fits her best.
Over the last few weeks we have tried on the old style Vapors (XXXX etc) the new X-40/60 etc from Bauer, CCMs, RBKs and a couple of Eastons, some were better than others but nothing felt right for her. I was assuming that it would probably end up being Grafs again, but only one local store carry Graf and they were out of her size. So a couple of weeks ago she had a Friday with no school so I took her for a mini road trip to my fave skate shop in Toronto (Source for sports - Just Hockey) for a serious fitting session.
They are great in that store. They measured her up, examined her feet, watched her stand/walk in her current skates and recommended several new skates. She tried a bunch on and had a shortlist of Graf 570 and a pair of Bauer Supremes (cant remember the exact model). She even had both pairs baked and wore them each for a while. She decided they were both OK but she slightly preferred the fit of the Bauers, but I could tell she wasn't 100% convinced with any of them. Whilst we are mulling over which to get, the sales/fitting guy says he has another idea. He comes out with another Graf, a 735, that he thinks might suit her foot. As soon as she put it on, her face lit up. It fit her perfectly, even before we baked it. So after trying on dozens of skates the decision was finally made, her new skate is a Graf 735. She has had them a couple of weeks, played a couple of 3-on-3 games and done a little training on artificial ice and she still loves them.

Anyway, the reason for the long winded ramble is to try to answer the original question and highlight that the main reason people still want Graf skates is because they make skates that truly fit a variety of feet. No other manufacturer seems to do this to the same extent and as far as I can tell that is the reason that Graf are still popular in some areas, despite their lack of mega bucks marketing, pro player paid endorements and techno-features.

Obviously the big names like Bauer make some great products too (as well as some not so great, I might add), but the fact is they don't properly fit a significant proportion of the population. It is also interesting to note that after all the multitude of new Bauer skates over recent years and numerous radical designs, their new, groundbreaking, top of the line skate is an understated plain black skate with a lower cut boot design. Maybe Graf have been onto something all these years.

 

[Jarick]

I've had my G35's for a couple months now...still loving them. They are heavy, but my skating is so much better. I can turn it on and blow past other players, make quick cuts and sharp turns, just fantastic.

I still have issues with the skates being too loose or tight sometimes, still need to work on that. And I would really like to try LS2's or profile them so I'm more on my heels instead of my toes so much.

But the fit, man...it's all about the fit. Unless your foot is a perfect match for the foot they used to create the particular skate, you're going to compromise performance.

 

[frito]

Just a follow up to this thread, trying to explain why perhaps some stores are so invested in Graf.

So my daughter has finally outgrown her youth Graf 301s and now that the rep season is over I wanted to get her next pair. She could still just about wear her current Grafs for Spring hockey and doesn't do too much skating in the summer, so there was no urgent rush. I wanted to take my time, have her try everything thing on with an open mind and get what fits her best.
Over the last few weeks we have tried on the old style Vapors (XXXX etc) the new X-40/60 etc from Bauer, CCMs, RBKs and a couple of Eastons, some were better than others but nothing felt right for her. I was assuming that it would probably end up being Grafs again, but only one local store carry Graf and they were out of her size. So a couple of weeks ago she had a Friday with no school so I took her for a mini road trip to my fave skate shop in Toronto (Source for sports - Just Hockey) for a serious fitting session.
They are great in that store. They measured her up, examined her feet, watched her stand/walk in her current skates and recommended several new skates. She tried a bunch on and had a shortlist of Graf 570 and a pair of Bauer Supremes (cant remember the exact model). She even had both pairs baked and wore them each for a while. She decided they were both OK but she slightly preferred the fit of the Bauers, but I could tell she wasn't 100% convinced with any of them. Whilst we are mulling over which to get, the sales/fitting guy says he has another idea. He comes out with another Graf, a 735, that he thinks might suit her foot. As soon as she put it on, her face lit up. It fit her perfectly, even before we baked it. So after trying on dozens of skates the decision was finally made, her new skate is a Graf 735. She has had them a couple of weeks, played a couple of 3-on-3 games and done a little training on artificial ice and she still loves them.

I really wish we had a store like that here in Cincinnati. We would have to drive six to eight hours to find a comparable store or make it up to Toronto. Anyway, a few years back my daughter went from being pretty easy to fit for a skate to darn near impossible. We fainally found the Mission AG-W female specific skate that works very well for her. Now that Mission is out of business there is no longer a high volume brand that fits her. While we were on the hunt last year we stumbled upon a pair of Graf 707's, the style made for high ankle sprains, that actually fit her quite nicely. Fortunately I was able to find two pair of Missions online, here size and a size up, that combined cost less than the Graf. when she outgorws both pair I suspect we will be moving on to Graf for just the reason you mention. I will jsut have to find the place with the experts to take the time with her I know she will need.

 

[The ORB]

I really wish we had a store like that here in Cincinnati. We would have to drive six to eight hours to find a comparable store or make it up to Toronto. Anyway, a few years back my daughter went from being pretty easy to fit for a skate to darn near impossible. We fainally found the Mission AG-W female specific skate that works very well for her. Now that Mission is out of business there is no longer a high volume brand that fits her. While we were on the hunt last year we stumbled upon a pair of Graf 707's, the style made for high ankle sprains, that actually fit her quite nicely. Fortunately I was able to find two pair of Missions online, here size and a size up, that combined cost less than the Graf. when she outgorws both pair I suspect we will be moving on to Graf for just the reason you mention. I will jsut have to find the place with the experts to take the time with her I know she will need.

I feel your pain man. I know from first hand experience (I have two daughters, a travel hockey player and a figure skater/rec hockey player) that having kids on the ice multiple times a week in skates that don't fit right is not a good experience for anyone. The problem with kids is even if you eventually find the perfect skate, chances are they will grow out of it within a year and then you start the process again, plus their feet can change over time. Most kids dont have too much of a problem fitting the big brand skates, but there are always those at either end of the bell curve for whom the fit is never right in the big brands. My older daughter is no problem, tried a few pairs on and she loves the fit of RBKs. Easy, the whole process took 30 minutes max and most places stock RBKs. The younger one, totally different story.

Maybe you should plan a vacation in Canada this summer and spend a day in Toronto getting fitted for skates. Depends how serious she is about her skating I guess, but it's worth a thought. Having said that I am sure there are other places in the US that are good too. Graf worked for us, but every kid is different.

 

[stick9]

ORB - Somethings been nagging at me for a some time now. You seem to be basing your opinions of Graf skates based off of your daughters experience. Some of the issues being brought with their skates she won't likely see. She's too young to stay in boot long enough for it develop any problems. She's not experienced enough to know if this a problem. She's likely not strong and/or heavy enough to really work the boot to see it's benefits or shortcomings.

They work for her and she's happy...great, that's what really matters. However, lets not lose sight of the fact that kids very rarely use a piece of gear to it's full potential and really can't be used as good gauge to an items quality and performance for that matter.

I skated in 703's for years and thought they were great until I spent time in another boot. I think they make a decent product but I would only consider them as a last resort. I don't think they do or make anything I can't find in another brand.

 

[jsykes]

Stick, you may think that, but you'd be wrong. There are certain fits that Graf offers that simply cannot be had in other brands. Bauer cannot possibly fit the number of feet that Graf do with only two lines, it doesnt matter how advanced the skates are.

For that matter, Graf do have a fairly unique positioning and feel to them. I skated on some G70s for a couple months. They dont fit me great, but I got an awesome deal on them so I used them to replace some very old skates I had while I continued to look for a better fitting skate.

I finally decided that the Supremes fit me better and I ended up with TotalOnes. However, I've literally been fighting them now for some time because I got so used to and totally love the forward and aggressive positioning of the Grafs. I've had the TO blades profiled multiple times, going further forward with each and now I'm getting some lifts put in them to see if I can get close to the Graf feel in these skates.

If I cant, I'm going back to a custom Graf (the G70 doesnt work cause its the deepest skate, which I need, but the heel is not right for me).

So it doesnt matter how great the TO is, if it doesnt fit or it doesnt work for you, its not going to help you. I can skate better in your "old tech" Grafs than I can in the latest and greatest skates on the market right now.

To rule out Grafs like you seem to because they arent the latest tech or some kind of super skate, is silly. Around me locally, go to any pickup session and you'll see probably 1 in 4 or more players in Grafs. And Graf skaters tend to want to stay with them, so they're doing something right.

 

[stick9]

To rule out Grafs like you seem to because they arent the latest tech or some kind of super skate, is silly. Around me locally, go to any pickup session and you'll see probably 1 in 4 or more players in Grafs. And Graf skaters tend to want to stay with them, so they're doing something right.

This is where are missing the point. I don't need or want the latest tech. I don't want the outdated tech either...or crappy steel, clunky holders, and questionable quality.

I'm confident that between, Bauer Supreme, Bauer Vapor, CCM, Reebok, and Easton I'll find a skate that will satisfy all of my needs.

 

[Superstar Treatment]

I haven't seen a 1 in 4 ratio of graf skates in about ten years. Even when they were probably at the height of their popularity in this country, around 97-01, you'd still only see about three or four players on a team in them.

 

[The ORB]

ORB - Somethings been nagging at me for a some time now. You seem to be basing your opinions of Graf skates based off of your daughters experience. Some of the issues being brought with their skates she won't likely see. She's too young to stay in boot long enough for it develop any problems. She's not experienced enough to know if this a problem. She's likely not strong and/or heavy enough to really work the boot to see it's benefits or shortcomings.

They work for her and she's happy...great, that's what really matters. However, lets not lose sight of the fact that kids very rarely use a piece of gear to it's full potential and really can't be used as good gauge to an items quality and performance for that matter.

I skated in 703's for years and thought they were great until I spent time in another boot. I think they make a decent product but I would only consider them as a last resort. I don't think they do or make anything I can't find in another brand.

She is the only member of my immediate family that wear them yes. She has a slightly non typical foot shape and also spends more time in hockey skates every week than the rest of us put together. My other daughter and I are both in RBKs and my wife wears Bauers, since they fit us fine. As I have said before I know many other people of all ages, shapes and abilities that also wear Grafs and plenty more people that don't. Not sure I get your point. Actually the first guy to recommend Grafs to me was my daughters power skating coach a couple of years ago. He has coached professionally for 15-20 years and has taught hundreds of great hockey players to skate (including Cody Hodgson, Steve Stamkos, Mike Del Zotto etc etc etc). He must weigh about 250lbs and skates like an NHLer. Does his opinion count? He told me they are a great skater's skate and that for his foot type he would wear nothing else. He also suggested their wide array of fitting options would probably help my daughter who at the time was having a tough time in her Bauers.

You state that "kids very rarely use a piece of gear to it's full potential and really can't be used as good gauge to an items quality and performance for that matter". So the quality of a junior skate is irrelevant, since its just for kids? Interesting viewpoint. I only wish kids hockey gear lasted as long as you seem to think it does.
The tally of destroyed equipment from her this year has been less than prior years, but still stands at one pair of Bauer Vapor pants (lasted less than 4 months and fell apart ), one VaporXXXX stick (lasted about 6 months and snapped above the blade), one VaporI backup/practice stick (blade splintered at the heel after 2 months). So far the rest of her gear is holding up but then it was all new last summer/fall.

You then state (and this is the my favorite), "I don't think they do or make anything I can't find in another brand". As JSykes has already spelled out to you, that is simply not true. Graf make skates that fit differently to all the other brands. Are you trying to deny that now also. First there was the "crap quality" argument, then the "too heavy, not high-tech enough" argument now are you honestly denying that they make some skates that fit differently to the other brands? Seriously?!

This is where are missing the point. I don't need or want the latest tech. I don't want the outdated tech either...or crappy steel, clunky holders, and questionable quality.

I'm confident that between, Bauer Supreme, Bauer Vapor, CCM, Reebok, and Easton I'll find a skate that will satisfy all of my needs.

Good for you. You stick with whatever works for you hotshot. Hope that leading edge technology carries you all the way to the pros. Meanwhile you would do well to accept that those options are not always best for everyone. If all you want to do is spew endless Graf hatred, save us all the bother of polluting this thread with it. We get it, you and the young guy from Tampa really hate Graf.

I haven't seen a 1 in 4 ratio of graf skates in about ten years. Even when they were probably at the height of their popularity in this country, around 97-01, you'd still only see about three or four players on a team in them.

Wouldn't 3 or 4 players be roughly 1 in 4 on most teams?

Around here the Graf wearing % of rep players and adult rec players varies but I would maybe hazard a guess at 15-20% Graf wearers. Some teams it seems to be higher, some lower. Again it probably has a lot to do with their particular foot types.

 

[jsykes]

I'll count tomorrow at pickup. But I'm telling you, they're quite common around here. Heck I work part time in an LHS (for the free ice time ) and virtually every day I work, someone comes in asking to try on Grafs.

There are 5 people on one of my teams that wear Grafs.

My other team has 4 players with Grafs on it.

At pickup, I know of at at least 6 regular players wearing Grafs and there are always at least a few others.

Look, I'm not saying they're the greatest thing since sliced bread by any means. However, I also know A LOT of people that come in the shop and want a more traditional style of skate like Graf offers. I'd also hardly call them outdated tech. A 'G' series skate has carbon outsole, a very nice wicking liner, and a relatively light composite style upper.

Also, the 5000 series holders I do not find to be bad at all. You may not like the way they put you forward, but they hold up and the steel on mine held an edge just as long as the Fusion steel does on my TOs. And if you dont like the steel, Step Steel is a very simple and cheap change.

So I'm sure you can find something you like while avoiding Grafs if you like, no one is making you have to look at Graf. But I also dont see the hate that some seem to have. If you dont like the skates, dont buy them. However, I can say that a lot of people do like them, they like the way they feel, they like the way they're made and they like the way perform. Dont tell them they're wrong just cause you dont like them.

 

[Maupin Fan]

why don't you replace the tuuks on your total ones with the cobras that come on the grafs so you can have a boot that fits along with a holder that has the pitch that you like?

Stick, you may think that, but you'd be wrong. There are certain fits that
Graf offers that simply cannot be had in other brands. Bauer cannot possibly fit the number of feet that Graf do with only two lines, it doesnt matter how advanced the skates are.

For that matter, Graf do have a fairly unique positioning and feel to them. I skated on some G70s for a couple months. They dont fit me great, but I got an awesome deal on them so I used them to replace some very old skates I had while I continued to look for a better fitting skate.

I finally decided that the Supremes fit me better and I ended up with TotalOnes. However, I've literally been fighting them now for some time because I got so used to and totally love the forward and aggressive positioning of the Grafs. I've had the TO blades profiled multiple times, going further forward with each and now I'm getting some lifts put in them to see if I can get close to the Graf feel in these skates.

If I cant, I'm going back to a custom Graf (the G70 doesnt work cause its the deepest skate, which I need, but the heel is not right for me).

So it doesnt matter how great the TO is, if it doesnt fit or it doesnt work for you, its not going to help you. I can skate better in your "old tech" Grafs than I can in the latest and greatest skates on the market right now.

To rule out Grafs like you seem to because they arent the latest tech or some kind of super skate, is silly. Around me locally, go to any pickup session and you'll see probably 1 in 4 or more players in Grafs. And Graf skaters tend to want to stay with them, so they're doing something right.

 

[jsykes]

why don't you replace the tuuks on your total ones with the cobras that come on the grafs so you can have a boot that fits along with a holder that has the pitch that you like?

Its more than just the holder. I have profiled the steel on the TUUKs to match the pitch of the Graf holders. However, the TO boot is not as aggressive in forward lean as the Graf boot is. I'm hoping the heel lifts will give the boot the more aggressive feel I'm looking for.

I'll figure it out. I'm not stuck on the super high tech TO skate. I got them through a good deal and liked the way they fit. If I dont end up liking the way they perform, I dont feel like I need the latest thing out there. I'll go back to Graf and have a custom made that will give me the fit I need with the feel I want. I'd have no problem wearing a Graf skate if that is what turns out to be the best for me.

 

[Jarick]

I'd think lifts would work for you in that situation. LS2's holder and steel are awesome. Someday I might put some on my G35's.

 

[Heat McManus]

I'd say 1:8 around here. If it was 1:4 that means that Graf would have 25% of the market, which I don't believe is accurate.

 

[Jarick]

We're probably closer to 1 in 10 or 1 in 12 from what I've seen. Maybe one Graf guy per pickup game, but it seems at least a couple high schoolers in Grafs per game.

 

[frito]

Its more than just the holder. I have profiled the steel on the TUUKs to match the pitch of the Graf holders. However, the TO boot is not as aggressive in forward lean as the Graf boot is. I'm hoping the heel lifts will give the boot the more aggressive feel I'm looking for.

I'll figure it out. I'm not stuck on the super high tech TO skate. I got them through a good deal and liked the way they fit. If I dont end up liking the way they perform, I dont feel like I need the latest thing out there. I'll go back to Graf and have a custom made that will give me the fit I need with the feel I want. I'd have no problem wearing a Graf skate if that is what turns out to be the best for me.

Just curious, how do you go about getting custom made Grafs and how much more expensive are they from regular store bought Gras?

 

[jsykes]

I havent priced them out, but any Graf dealer should be able to give you the info and possibly fit you for custom Grafs.

 

[frito]

I havent priced them out, but any Graf dealer should be able to give you the info and possibly fit you for custom Grafs.

Guess it's time for that road trip.

 

[We Want the Cup 2010]

I've been wearing the same pair of Graf's for 10 years, playing ~40-50 times a year. Very comfortable, lightweight, and can't beat the durability. They are now strictly outdoor skates.

I'm hoping my new grafs (not sure which model to get, any recommendations?) will last another 10 solid years. Just wanted to get some positive feedback out there in a pretty anti-graf thread.

 

[Ozolinsh_27]

I'm hoping my new grafs (not sure which model to get, any recommendations?) will last another 10 solid years. Just wanted to get some positive feedback out there in a pretty anti-graf thread.

What model are your old Grafs? Tough to recommend a new Graf model without knowing what your old ones were. If they're about 10 years old you can probably just get an updated model in the G Series. Unless your old ones are 704s, then you'd be out of luck as I believe Graf stopped making them sometime around 2003-2004 and 704s never made it into the G series/ultra G series.

I don't think this is an anti-Graf thread, its more of a Grafs are offer more variety than a big brand name thread. At one point Grafs fit me perfect, then as I got older my feet changed and Bauer's are now a better fit.

frito, I believe it could be an extra 100-200$ for custom depending on your LHS Graf dealer, depending on what extras you get ..some people get extra stitching and whatnot.

Anyone remember Graf's black widow skates? God, those things looked amazing.

Edit, found a pic of Kris Beech wearing a pair I think:

 

[ean]

Graf is the only brand left of high end skates that doesn't use all synthetic/composite materials. For that reason, they usually aren't as light, but last much much longer. Pros don't care about how long skates last.

 

[stick9]

She is the only member of my immediate family that wear them yes. She has a slightly non typical foot shape and also spends more time in hockey skates every week than the rest of us put together. My other daughter and I are both in RBKs and my wife wears Bauers, since they fit us fine. As I have said before I know many other people of all ages, shapes and abilities that also wear Grafs and plenty more people that don't. Not sure I get your point. Actually the first guy to recommend Grafs to me was my daughters power skating coach a couple of years ago. He has coached professionally for 15-20 years and has taught hundreds of great hockey players to skate (including Cody Hodgson, Steve Stamkos, Mike Del Zotto etc etc etc). He must weigh about 250lbs and skates like an NHLer. Does his opinion count? He told me they are a great skater's skate and that for his foot type he would wear nothing else. He also suggested their wide array of fitting options would probably help my daughter who at the time was having a tough time in her Bauers.

You state that "kids very rarely use a piece of gear to it's full potential and really can't be used as good gauge to an items quality and performance for that matter". So the quality of a junior skate is irrelevant, since its just for kids? Interesting viewpoint. I only wish kids hockey gear lasted as long as you seem to think it does.
The tally of destroyed equipment from her this year has been less than prior years, but still stands at one pair of Bauer Vapor pants (lasted less than 4 months and fell apart ), one VaporXXXX stick (lasted about 6 months and snapped above the blade), one VaporI backup/practice stick (blade splintered at the heel after 2 months). So far the rest of her gear is holding up but then it was all new last summer/fall.

You then state (and this is the my favorite), "I don't think they do or make anything I can't find in another brand". As JSykes has already spelled out to you, that is simply not true. Graf make skates that fit differently to all the other brands. Are you trying to deny that now also. First there was the "crap quality" argument, then the "too heavy, not high-tech enough" argument now are you honestly denying that they make some skates that fit differently to the other brands? Seriously?!

Good for you. You stick with whatever works for you hotshot. Hope that leading edge technology carries you all the way to the pros. Meanwhile you would do well to accept that those options are not always best for everyone. If all you want to do is spew endless Graf hatred, save us all the bother of polluting this thread with it. We get it, you and the young guy from Tampa really hate Graf.

Wouldn't 3 or 4 players be roughly 1 in 4 on most teams?

Around here the Graf wearing % of rep players and adult rec players varies but I would maybe hazard a guess at 15-20% Graf wearers. Some teams it seems to be higher, some lower. Again it probably has a lot to do with their particular foot types.

Dude, get off your high horse and practice what you preach.

You've accused others as being Bauer fanboys while acting like a poster boy for Graf....a skate you yourself have never worn.

And you are wrong about fitting differently then any other brand. The Graf fit is not different, they just offer more variations in fit so Graf the brand is able to fit a wider range of foot types. And you're wrong about me hating Graf, I don't hate any brand.

The only reason I am carrying on with you is because you're misinforming people who come looking for honest advice.

Any sales guy worth their salt will be able to tell you all the positives of any product. You'll be hard pressed to get a sales guy to tell you the quality isn't what it should be or that it's heavier then everything else on the wall or that you'll need to sharpen them twice as much as something else. His job is to sell you a product, not talk you out of it. That's why coming here and asking for real honest opinions is for. If I'm looking to make a major purchase, I want to hear all the bad. It's called being an educated consumer.

 

[jsykes]

You'll be hard pressed to get a sales guy to tell you the quality isn't what it should be or that it's heavier then everything else on the wall or that you'll need to sharpen them twice as much as something else.

See, this where you lose your credibility or your saying you do not hate the brand.

I own and skate on both a G70 and a Bauer TotalOne. Two opposite ends of the spectrum from the way you've been describing things.

The Graf quality has been just fine, with no issues. I do not need to sharpen it more often than my Bauer steel, it holds an edge just as long without issue. And if that is really a problem, Step steel is a few turns of a screw away.

I also weighed both skates. The TO is about 6 ounces lighter than the Graf. Lighter? Yes. Noticeable? Yes. Head and shoulders lighter so that I consider the Grafs outdated or old tech? Not at all.

And that is to the lightest skate on the market. Put it up against a 11K or Vapor and it wont even be that much of a difference.

You talk about them as if they're something Gordie Howe would have worn 40 years ago, your distaste for them is obvious. Additionally, the reasons you continue to give are simply not valid in most cases.