Question regarding Graf Skates

[Superstar Treatment]

Anyone I know who has bought a pair of grafs with composite outsoles has had some sort of problem. Some major, some minor.

And, about Manhattan's biggest shop not selling Bauer, people are getting them somewhere. I've played in the city, Staten Island and Long Island, I could probably count the amount of grafs worn by non-refs on one hand.

I had a pair of 705s in high school. They're good skates, but they're definitely outdated technology. Not that it's a bad thing, some people like what they're used to. Hell, my grandma still has a microwave that's as old as me.

Anyone who denies that Bauer is the market leader is insane, and that's coming from someone currently in Reebok skates.

 

[stick9]

Anyway I'll leave the discussion there as I don't want to get further sucked into a juvenile HF boards brand wars, just not happy seeing blatant brand bashing going unchecked on a public forum.

If you looked around a bit you'd see nothing said here hasn't been said many times over on various other sites by countless other people. You want to know the real deal when it comes to hockey equipment, head to modsquadhockey.com. There are some truly shocking stories about Graf from both the customer and retailer side.

FWIW, I wear Eastons and love em. I know not everyone does and I certainly don't get defensive when someone has something bad to say about them. Now if I asked about the skate and multiple people told me there were issues with it or the company standing behind it, I would most certainly listen. Maybe it wouldn't stop me from buying them, but at least I was was made aware of it.

 

[Ozolinsh_27]

I've experienced both sides of Graf's quality. The 705s with Tuuk holders I wore for 5 full seasons, they were rock solid as I estimate I skated 70-80x per season each year.

Sometime during that fifth season, they felt different like they were off a bit - was likely just wear and tear but even a new pair felt not quite right. It ended up turning out on top of whatever it is my feet were doing, one of them ended up being a half size smaller.

After several fittings, I moved to a 704 which was fine for awhile, then tortured my arches in the second year - eventually I ended up Vapor XXX for one season (which wreaked havoc with a muscle on the outside of my calf on the side with the smaller foot), then Graf 735s the next and I started noticing after a couple skates I could feel the screws underneath the sole -- took the soles out and my skates had no rivets to hold the screws - not to mention they were longer screws than what should've been used.

Needless to say I've been a frequent visitor to my LHS over the years. I really tried to make it work with Grafs, but just couldn't. I've finally found the skate that gives me the least problems and its a One95.

 

[nystromshairstylist]

if you want evidence take a look around the nhl. look at how many nhl players wear bauer. compare it to the ones that wear graf. this isnt a marketing thing on teh part of bauer, these pros will wear what they want, as you admit later in your post, and most want bauer and the least worn skate is probably graf. there must be a reason behind it

Again, this is meaningless. Graf is not seeking to have the largest market share, they seek to offer the best product, and to allow the consumer public to find it on their own. I liken them to Apple computer; the best product - but not for everyone, nor do they want everyone to have it.

they arent a performance skate the same way wooden sticks arent a performance sticks. and on the same token some pros use wooden sticks, and shoot just fine with them, its just a matter of whats comfortable to them, but the technology is miles ahead at bauer

I'm sorry, but this is just absurd. If NHL players are wearing Grafs, then whether you like it or not, its a high end skate. A professional is not going to wear something that will jeopardize his ability to succeed on the ice. NHL players wear sherwood 5030 shoulder pads - even though they provide little or no protection - because they do not interfere with their motion and ability to play and succeed. The most important part of an ice hockey player's gear is their skates - so to claim its not a good product when significant numbers of NHL players wear them - without any marketing or payments coming from Graf, unlike Bauer, is just not factual.

that doesnt negate the fact the most pros wear bauer.

Never claimed otherwise, and I doubt Graf would argue either. But again, one companies pays, and the other doesn't. That might be influential in the decision making process.

imagine if they sold other skates than just graf. if they are doing that well just selling graf(well first of all there are alot of people not wearing the skate they want and were probably pressured into buying a skate that might not fit best) imagine how well they would do if they carried the more popular skate brands like bauer, easton, rbk and ccm

Speculation at best. Graf makes a multitude of skate shapes to fit all types of feet. It is not clear to me how someone can claim a company that makes styles around foot shapes and offers an overlay of narrow-med-wide widths on top, is going to offer less choice than Bauer or other makers who offer fewer fitting options.

there has been alot more pointed posts than TBLfan/and his statement is true, my brotehr experienced it first hand when his grafs broke right after he got them and many others have too

Since you do not have the total figures for sales and defectives, going merely by a single anecdotal story - or even a single store - is just not sufficient to be able to make a sweeping claim about a company rate of defective merchandise.

More to the point, claiming in a public forum that a company intentionally screws its customers over is a libelous statement, and I am a member of other large web forums where manufacturers have sued both the forum owner and posters for making non-factual claims of that nature. I like HF, I don't wish to see that happen here. (For those curious, the forum I am referring to is club obi-wan, a site for aficianados of the Indiana Jones leather jacket).

most importantly, TBLfan and Heat McManus are 2 of the most knowledgeable posters on the forums when it comes to equipment. these are two of the posters that when i see they posted something in here i make sure i read it

I do not claim otherwise, but some of TBLs statements, like the ones above, are not fact-based, and while they might be quite knowledgeable in general, sweeping claims have been made in this thread that are unbecoming of the forum overall, and are not based in fact, which is what is most important.

 

[nystromshairstylist]

I'll confirm tomorrow, but I'm almost 100% positive that they get a good deal of calls for Bauer skates. They are a small store, REALLY small. I don't know how they'd be able to carry all the Graf models they want, other types of equipment AND full lines of Vapor and Supremes.

As a small store, I'm not even sure if they carry all Grafs in stock, I'd imagine some styles/sizes must be special-ordered.

You're also contradicting yourself by saying that commercial success means nothing but that Graf must be good because WSS does well carrying only Graf. A store could do very well JUST carrying Bauer, but it doesn't mean Bauer is the best product.

Understood, but given the expectations of a typically demanding NY-consumer, a store carrying lousy product just simply won't stay open long.

I've lived in NYC for over 40 years, and here's a good example: walk by any restaurant here one month after it opened, and if it isn't crowded, it won't reach a second month. Not to sound like an arrogant NYer, but people here have probably the lowest BS-tolerance anywhere in the US, and a store selling skates that don't hold up is not going to last long. Every area rink I went to people referred me to the same store, and to the same people for fittings...they knew that Bauer was not carried in WSS.

Sure paragon has Bauer, and full disclosure, I actually have lower end Bauer skates, and even they are quite comfortable - no doubt, Bauer makes an excellent product - but the fierce claims against Graf here are just not justifiable.

I've known TBL for a few years and he's anything but a Bauer shill or a Graf assassin. If you check other boards like ModSquadHockey you'll hear what he's saying echoed a good deal.

As for modhockey, I'm a member there too, and the thread dealing with Graf CS issues is several years old.

 

[nystromshairstylist]

nystromshairstylist - I'm calling you out on this one. Anyone who's been around long enough knows, TBLfan knows what he's talking about. Probably more so than anyone else here....with a few exceptions who I can count on one hand.

I am not denying his or anyone's "expertise," what I am stating is that sweeping claims like that GRaf is intentionally out to screw their customers is nonsense, let along libelous, and cannot be justified.

 

[nystromshairstylist]

I run a hockey shop that used to carry Graf.

Again, and I respect your opinion, unless you can provide full statistics for the company as a whole, your ONE store is not statistically significant.

 

[Gunnar Stahl 30]

I'm sorry, but this is just absurd. If NHL players are wearing Grafs, then whether you like it or not, its a high end skate. A professional is not going to wear something that will jeopardize his ability to succeed on the ice. NHL players wear sherwood 5030 shoulder pads - even though they provide little or no protection - because they do not interfere with their motion and ability to play and succeed. The most important part of an ice hockey player's gear is their skates - so to claim its not a good product when significant numbers of NHL players wear them - without any marketing or payments coming from Graf, unlike Bauer, is just not factual.

i never said they dont make a good product, i said they arent as technologically advanced as bauer, which is 100% true.

so to claim its not a good product when significant numbers of NHL players wear them - without any marketing or payments coming from Graf, unlike Bauer,

but as you said before, these guys are pros, they will wear what they want. you cant have your cake and eat it too. And there are not a significant number of NHL players wearing them. If I had to guess, I would say its about 8% being generous(purely speculation)


if you want some hard factual evidence for anything me, TBL or Heat said(which seems to be the only way to convince you) than do a little research. Most of your argument has been "you havent provided factual proof" when some of these things, if youve been around hockey enough, are well known through out the hockey circles, and guys like TBL and Heat have dealt with their fair share of equipment

 

[Superstar Treatment]

Mike Modano and Chris Chelios are wearing 652 tacks. Tons of players are in s9 skates. They were top of the line skates, they definitely aren't now. Personal preference is fine, guys are wearing what they're used to. If they started playing today I doubt they'd go for a skate with the features of either model since they're outdated.

 

[stick9]

i never said they dont make a good product, i said they arent as technologically advanced as bauer, which is 100% true.

but as you said before, these guys are pros, they will wear what they want. you cant have your cake and eat it too. And there are not a significant number of NHL players wearing them. If I had to guess, I would say its about 8% being generous(purely speculation)

if you want some hard factual evidence for anything me, TBL or Heat said(which seems to be the only way to convince you) than do a little research. Most of your argument has been "you havent provided factual proof" when some of these things, if youve been around hockey enough, are well known through out the hockey circles, and guys like TBL and Heat have dealt with their fair share of equipment

The Graf site lists 50 players wearing Graf skates, that includes goaltenders, that's about 6%.

 

[Gunnar Stahl 30]

The Graf site lists 50 players wearing Graf skates, that includes goaltenders, that's about 6%.

thanks for that stat. i was looking for something like that, i didnt think graf would list the number on their site because i knew it wouldnt be too impressive

 

[Renneys Revenge]

More to the point, claiming in a public forum that a company intentionally screws its customers over is a libelous statement, and I am a member of other large web forums where manufacturers have sued both the forum owner and posters for making non-factual claims of that nature. I like HF, I don't wish to see that happen here. (For those curious, the forum I am referring to is club obi-wan, a site for aficianados of the Indiana Jones leather jacket).

dude first of all relax. this is an educated debate and i highly doubt any of it would be considered "libel". sure they are anecdotal accounts but how do you ignore a large amount of them? obviously there is something to it.

second of all anyone LOL at the indiana jones thing?

 

[Pedagogue]

Canadian Boy here entering the debate. I too have often wondered why we don't see more NHL players wearing Graf skates as they are awesome. However, why would they when they can get paid to wear Bauer or other big brands. People, please realize that the Bauer skates the pros wear are customs. Graf skates are for a niche market of people who understand the importance of comfort based on the individual structure of the player's feet. I have the Supra 605's and have not experienced any problems. They fit my feet perfectly and work for me. Bauer is the most popular but not necessarily the best. Let's not confuse popularity with quality.

 

[Gunnar Stahl 30]

Canadian Boy here entering the debate. I too have often wondered why we don't see more NHL players wearing Graf skates as they are awesome. However, why would they when they can get paid to wear Bauer or other big brands. People, please realize that the Bauer skates the pros wear are customs. Graf skates are for a niche market of people who understand the importance of comfort based on the individual structure of the player's feet. I have the Supra 605's and have not experienced any problems. They fit my feet perfectly and work for me. Bauer is the most popular but not necessarily the best. Let's not confuse popularity with quality.

theres is nothing wrong with wanting to wear grafs, but they havent made the same strides technologically as bauer, and thats a fact.

like people have said in this thread, buy what fits your feet and what you like and the pros do that. they arent going to use a skate just because they are sponsored by them. look at zach parise. he is sponsored by easton but he wears ccm skates. obviously its what fits him and what he likes. malkin is sponsored by bauer, he uses an s19 stick

these guys use what they like, and only 6% use graf skates

not to mention the whole "they are sponsored by a certain company they have to wear their equipment" argument is not only not completely true but also its not like the entire league is sponsored by a hockey company. there is probably only 2 maybe 3 guys per team taht are so they vast majority of the nhl players are not and the vast majority of the nhl players wear bauer skates the fact that graf doesnt sponsor anyone doesnt explain why not alot of nhl players wear graf skates

 

[stick9]

theres is nothing wrong with wanting to wear grafs, but they havent made the same strides technologically as bauer, and thats a fact.

like people have said in this thread, buy what fits your feet and what you like and the pros do that. they arent going to use a skate just because they are sponsored by them. look at zach parise. he is sponsored by easton but he wears ccm skates. obviously its what fits him and what he likes. malkin is sponsored by bauer, he uses an s19 stick

these guys use what they like, and only 6% use graf skates

not to mention the whole "they are sponsored by a certain company they have to wear their equipment" argument is not only not completely true but also its not like the entire league is sponsored by a hockey company. there is probably only 2 maybe 3 guys per team taht are so they vast majority of the nhl players are not and the vast majority of the nhl players wear bauer skates the fact that graf doesnt sponsor anyone doesnt explain why not alot of nhl players wear graf skates

Too add to that. Unless your a poster boy (ie Ovechkin, Crosby, Malkin, E. Staal) the money you get to wear a certain product is nothing...especially not when you're already making millions.

Pedagogue mentions that the skates worn by pros are customs, which is true. That bring up a point touched on in this thread, quality and customer service.

Think about it, there has to be a reason why pros aren't wearing them.

 

[nystromshairstylist]

dude first of all relax. this is an educated debate and i highly doubt any of it would be considered "libel". sure they are anecdotal accounts but how do you ignore a large amount of them? obviously there is something to it.

second of all anyone LOL at the indiana jones thing?

You misunderstand me, I'm not taking this personally or anything - shyte, I don't care if noone else wears Grafs, I like mine so far, and that's all that counts

It's just that I've got a legal background, and the statement made above could get HFB in trouble if the manufacturer saw it, and took legal action. If you laugh at the IJ thing, you should go there and read the posts, those people are fanatics about the jacket, it really is hilarious. I just landed on it because I was researching custom leather jackets, and it is a good resource for info on hides, materials, construction, stitching, etc.

But the site was also, sadly, sued by a company who suffered a comment similar to TBLs, and given how much I like this place and the participants, I'd be pissed if the admins here had to chill the freedom of speech b/c someone insulted a company.

Just saying be careful about blanket negative comments on the web about a company, and no, I don't work for Graf, I just embarrass myself 2-3x per week in their skates...

 

[Superstar Treatment]

Eh, it's not slander when there's numerous stories online about graf horror stories.

 

[Gunnar Stahl 30]

I'd also guess that over 1/2 of the 50 NHL players that wear Graf wear tuuk holders, a bauer product, or something else

 

[Superstar Treatment]

I wonder if Graf paid Jagr when he was in the NHL. He went to one90s then one95s as soon as he went to the KHL.

 

[RaoulDuke2k]

You see Fedorov switched to Graf Ultra G5's this year with LS2s. Before he got with Nike though, he was a Graf user.

 

[Heat McManus]

I wonder if Graf paid Jagr when he was in the NHL. He went to one90s then one95s as soon as he went to the KHL.

No. They've never paid anybody. In fact I heard a story once where they refused to ship a pair of skates to the Pens for #68 because they were owed a rather substantial sum of money from the club.

Don't know how much water the story holds, but definitely sure Jagr wasn't paid.

 

[Superstar Treatment]

Looking at pictures it actually looks like he switched to one90s during the playoffs his last year in NY so that makes it look less weird that he switched.

 

[Heat McManus]

I'm sorry, but this is just absurd. If NHL players are wearing Grafs, then whether you like it or not, its a high end skate. A professional is not going to wear something that will jeopardize his ability to succeed on the ice. NHL players wear sherwood 5030 shoulder pads - even though they provide little or no protection - because they do not interfere with their motion and ability to play and succeed. The most important part of an ice hockey player's gear is their skates - so to claim its not a good product when significant numbers of NHL players wear them - without any marketing or payments coming from Graf, unlike Bauer, is just not factual.

"performance skate" is a term for a skate whose main function is to help enhance a players performance through various technologies and features. It doesn't mean skates that are not labeled "performance skates" are not high end.

I still haven't seen anybody here say that Graf does not make a good product.

And as far as NY customers, believe me I know what they're like. Lots of NYers also invested with Madoff. So there's, that.

 

[TBLfan]

So yeah, basically as you can tell by this thread, a limited number of people have positive experiences with Graf... and they are typically the ones that know everyone else that have positive experiences.

 

[nystromshairstylist]

I still haven't seen anybody here say that Graf does not make a good product.

Wellll....some people did say that Graf is intentionally screwing their customers over, ie., committing fraud - that's powerful stuff...

And as far as NY customers, believe me I know what they're like. Lots of NYers also invested with Madoff. So there's, that.

LOL. While his offices were very close by to mine, most of his biggest investors came from a Palm Beach country club, and the last time I checked my map that town is located in FLORIDA

So there ya go....