Question about Neal vs Hornqvist+Spaling trade

[Waffle Fries]

Great article:Why Sidney Crosby and Patric Hornqvist are a perfect match

Gotta find a way to break that line up tho

Looks like it

And although the Crosby/PH line has been good, I don't know if there's a better player in this league for Geno than PH. The third wheel could be Dupuis or Spaling or whoever. I just really hope we get to see Geno and PH playing on a line at ES at some point this year. I think Geno knows it too:

 

[cygnus47]

Absolutely. And it's that gap that Geno needs.

This whole debate got me very interested in watching tape of how Geno played with Neal vs. Talbot/Feds, because he was just so much more effective and engaged playing with those players. I think I watched every goal on video from Geno and Neal over the past 5 years. And the number one thing that's striking is how Geno thrives when he has open ice to work with (and how Neal takes up all the prime ice and draws defenders there).

And although the Crosby/PH line has been good, I don't know if there's a better player in this league for Geno than PH. The third wheel could be Dupuis or Spaling or whoever. I just really hope we get to see Geno and PH playing on a line at ES at some point this year. I think Geno knows it too:

“He’s good shot, move puck, he’s going to net every time,†Malkin said. “I have puck, he go to net. Tonight, he score because he go to net.â€

It's why Kunitz - Geno - Neal worked so well. Kunitz did the banging and drew guys to the net, and then whoever was left had to pick either Geno or Neal, both of whom could pick a corner.

Still, I'd rather put Kunitz on Geno's line at this point, rather than split up Horny/Sid.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Kunitz and Neal would have done the same things for Sid as they did Geno. Nobody was saying we should give Neal to Sid when he was working so well with Geno, I don't get why people want to move Hornqvist with Geno now that its flipped.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

Kunitz and Neal would have done the same things for Sid as they did Geno. Nobody was saying we should give Neal to Sid when he was working so well with Geno, I don't get why people want to move Hornqvist with Geno now that its flipped.

I'd love to have two PH's. I think he would help Geno more than he helps Sid, since Sid doesn't need the puck on his stick as much as Geno does to be effective in my opinion. But I'm not leading a campaign to stick it to Sid here.

But at the end of the day, I'm convinced that what Geno does need is not so much an all world playmaker or sniper, but just some guys who will drive the net with regularity and force the opposing defenders to account for them. We have guys like that on the roster now. Spaling and Downie both do it. I might like a slightly better set of hands, but as Geno said about Talbot back in the day, even "a little bit bad hands" is ok with Geno if that player will drive the net.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I'd love to have two PH's. I think he would help Geno more than he helps Sid, since Sid doesn't need the puck on his stick as much as Geno does to be effective in my opinion. But I'm not leading a campaign to stick it to Sid here.

But at the end of the day, I'm convinced that what Geno does need is not so much an all world playmaker or sniper, but just some guys who will drive the net with regularity and force the opposing defenders to account for them. We have guys like that on the roster now. Spaling and Downie both do it. I might like a slightly better set of hands, but as Geno said about Talbot back in the day, even "a little bit bad hands" is ok with Geno if that player will drive the net.

I think Hornqvist would help them both pretty equally. He's like a combination of 2008 Malone and 2009 Billy Guerin.

 

[DegenX]

Kunitz and Neal would have done the same things for Sid as they did Geno. Nobody was saying we should give Neal to Sid when he was working so well with Geno, I don't get why people want to move Hornqvist with Geno now that its flipped.

That's not exactly true. When Sid came back from his concussion / neck injury, it was discussed and there were several folks who wanted to see it happen. Then during the following off season it was brought up again.

However, I agree with you ... just leave Hornqvist with Sid. If we're splitting up Sid's line, it makes more sense to move Kunitz to Geno's line whenever there is a Geno line again.

 

[billybudd]

Absolutely. And it's that gap that Geno needs.

This whole debate got me very interested in watching tape of how Geno played with Neal vs. Talbot/Feds, because he was just so much more effective and engaged playing with those players. I think I watched every goal on video from Geno and Neal over the past 5 years. And the number one thing that's striking is how Geno thrives when he has open ice to work with (and how Neal takes up all the prime ice and draws defenders there).

And although the Crosby/PH line has been good, I don't know if there's a better player in this league for Geno than PH. The third wheel could be Dupuis or Spaling or whoever. I just really hope we get to see Geno and PH playing on a line at ES at some point this year. I think Geno knows it too:

“He’s good shot, move puck, he’s going to net every time,” Malkin said. “I have puck, he go to net. Tonight, he score because he go to net.”

I did something similar with watching Sid games during the lockout. Was trying to figure out why the heck it was so hard to find linemates for him. Conclusion I came to is that most guys lack the anticipation. They get thrown off-balance by how quickly circumstances can change (there was a sequence in the Olympics I wish I had a clip of where Sid gave Keith 4 full seconds alone with the puck and he burned them because he was so surprised by the pass). Kunitz, for whatever he sometimes does wrong, reads the play fast enough (not well enough, fast enough) that he stuck, while guys like Nils Ekman or Malone could not because they don't.

Everybody loves PH for his determination and natural play in the paint, but, if him and Sid set career highs together (which looks very possible...Sid's PDO suggests he's in the middle of a cold streak), it's his anticipation that will have allowed this to happen.

For that reason, I'd make a marriage of those two. I don't see acquiring another guy that thinks that fast as something that's possible.

That said, it would be awful nice if we could clone him.

Someone suggested buying low on Lupul in one of these threads today. I'm not real up to date on what he looks like in 2014, but stylistically he always has done more of what Talbot and Feds do for Malkin in your clip (at a higher level, at least in the past) than what Neal did in his time here. Although, for all I know, Lupul's washed up. Really couldn't say.

I'd love to have two PH's.

That said, it would be awful nice if we could clone him.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

That's not exactly true. When Sid came back from his concussion / neck injury, it was discussed and there were several folks who wanted to see it happen. Then during the following off season it was brought up again.

However, I agree with you ... just leave Hornqvist with Sid. If we're splitting up Sid's line, it makes more sense to move Kunitz to Geno's line whenever there is a Geno line again.

To be very cliche about Sid and Geno, it's really the old Herb Brooks quote to a tee. We don't need the best players, we need the right ones. I just hope Kunitz will drive the net and not float in the slot like James Neal light all year though.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I've never been really interested in Lupul, and I have no idea why.

 

[mpp9]

Someone suggested buying low on Lupul in one of these threads today. I'm not real up to date on what he looks like in 2014, but stylistically he always has done more of what Talbot and Feds do for Malkin in your clip (at a higher level, at least in the past) than what Neal did in his time here. Although, for all I know, Lupul's washed up. Really couldn't say.

He looked damn good against us this season. Was on pace for 53 pts last season. Played 69 games. Was one of the Leafs' best forwards in the 2013 playoffs. And was ppg in the 2 seasons prior to that.

The term on his contract would be troubling given his injuries. If it was just for this season, I'd say no problem. I can understand if management doesn't want to have a guy constantly on LTIR for the next several seasons.

I say **** it. If he's the best forward available, go for it.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I
Someone suggested buying low on Lupul in one of these threads today. I'm not real up to date on what he looks like in 2014, but stylistically he always has done more of what Talbot and Feds do for Malkin in your clip (at a higher level, at least in the past) than what Neal did in his time here. Although, for all I know, Lupul's washed up. Really couldn't say.

Lupul is still very good and one of my favorite Leafs. He would be a hell of a player with either Malkin or Crosby.

It's just his injury history worries me. He is like an older BB.

 

[mpp9]

Everybody loves PH for his determination and natural play in the paint, but, if him and Sid set career highs together (which looks very possible...Sid's PDO suggests he's in the middle of a cold streak), it's his anticipation that will have allowed this to happen.

For that reason, I'd make a marriage of those two. I don't see acquiring another guy that thinks that fast as something that's possible.

I think knowing what he's going to do with the puck in certain areas before Sid even gets it to him is a big reason. He's not hesitating if he has a shot at the net.

His ability to force turnovers is nuts though. Maybe it's just the adrenaline rush of going to a new team with an elite center. He looks downright selke level at times stealing pucks. I can think of at least 5 times where he broke up an opponent's breakout at their own blue line.

 

[mpp9]

It's just his injury history worries me. He is like an older BB.

Eh. BB hasn't shown he can play a majority of the season yet. At least Lupul played 69 last year. He has a great number of stints on IR. BB is out longer. Pick your poison basically.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Lupul is still very good and one of my favorite Leafs. He would be a hell of a player with either Malkin or Crosby.

It's just his injury history worries me. He is like an older BB.

His injury history is weirder than Bennett's, tbh. There's some Letang in there.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Eh. BB hasn't shown he can play a majority of the season yet. At least Lupul played 69 last year. He has a great number of stints on IR. BB is out longer. Pick your poison basically.

Lupul always seems hurt. If you look at his history, it's troublesome for sure.

He's also 31 and with 3 more years after this on his deal, it's a situation that makes you think twice.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Sorry to be one of those guys but, has Hornqvist looked as great as his stats suggest?

I ask because I am being offered Benn & Subban for Hornqvist & Keith in a keeper league I'm in. Keith and Subban are a wash (especially when you factor in that I'm a Habs fan) but Benn is better than Hornqvist...usually, but I drafted PH because I expected him to have the breakout season he's having thus far.

Will he beat Benn in terms of pts, shots and ppp you figure? This league doesn't count hits or PIMs, so no advantage to Benn there.

Take Benn+Subban before he comes to his senses.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

His injury history is weirder than Bennett's, tbh. There's some Letang in there.

It's actually worse than Letang from what I recall. It's just bizarre, really. Like someone has a voodoo doll...

 

[Speaking Moistly]

It's actually worse than Letang from what I recall. It's just bizarre, really. Like someone has a voodoo doll...

Yeah, it's worse than Letang on the sheer number of big, weird things, which should be a huge red flag. I looked into it once, it's really shocking.

Spinal contusion, shoulder surgery (from a separation?), herniated disk requiring surgery, blood infection, etc. I think there's one or two concussions, a high ankle sprain, a broken arm and still more.

 

[Shady Machine]

Check the 12-13 second mark. Talbot forces #6 into a choice: back up and box Talbot out or pick up Malkin as he comes around the net, but leave Talbot for your partner who has a second guy (Feds) skating right at him. He chooses the former, which leaves Geno in a 1 on 1 that he wins instead of a 1 on 2, which he probably gets nothing out of.

I agree with Aiastelmon that neither Jokinen nor Neal take the routes that Feds or Talbot do in the same position. Neal floats out to the slot and JJ probably heads to the tops of the near circle or something.




The difference between the two is that Talbot and Feds create a gap for Malkin by going to the net first. Neal follows through a gap that Malkin created by going to the net first.

This is a play off the rush. The first is a play off a faceoff. They aren't at all comparable. The Geno ridiculous shot goal is Geno being ridiculous. Give that same play 100 more times with him skating out from behind the net in that position and it doesn't happen.

I'm not saying Talbot doesn't play the game differently than Neal or that a player playing that was doesn't help Malkin. I just think these 2 videos are weak evidence for it.

 

[Waffle Fries]

"[Hornqvist] does it all," Crosby said. "He goes to the net hard. He's got a great shot. He plays with a lot of energy, creates a lot of turnovers. Defensively I think's he pretty responsible. So I think everything on the ice he does well. And I think he's been a great guy in the room too.

"All the way around we're happy to have him."

http://www.nhl.com/ice/m_news.htm?id=735469

 

[mpp9]

"[Hornqvist] does it all," Crosby said. "He goes to the net hard. He's got a great shot. He plays with a lot of energy, creates a lot of turnovers. Defensively I think's he pretty responsible. So I think everything on the ice he does well. And I think he's been a great guy in the room too.

"All the way around we're happy to have him."

http://www.nhl.com/ice/m_news.htm?id=735469

But there's no upside to trading Neal. None.

 

[malkovsby]

crosby did fine with kunitz and dupuis, so we traded for essentially another kunitz albeit improved...and now we have to watch malkin play with dupuis and sutter

 

[penguins2946*]

Neal had a hat trick for Nashville last night, and the 2nd goal was an absolute rocket. It seems like a win-win trade for both sides. Spaling has been a good bottom-6 forward for us and Horny has been great for Sid.

 

[gordie]

I judge James "82 games" Neal only by playoff performances, so therefore Hornqvist still looks like the better option.

 

[Captain Hook]

Neal had a hat trick for Nashville last night, and the 2nd goal was an absolute rocket. It seems like a win-win trade for both sides. Spaling has been a good bottom-6 forward for us and Horny has been great for Sid.

Yeah, I think we all know Neal can snipe with the best of them. It was just a matter of if Nashville had enough guys that could get him the puck. It seems like they do since Neal now has 5 goals in 7 games including the hat trick last night. It certainly is looking very much like a win-win deal early on.