Question about McLean and the Blue Jackets...

West

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AgentNaslund said:
at the CHL prospects skills competition, he won all the skating competitions puck relay, and speed skating. Some dude posted his times (on this board), and everyone elses times for those competitions. I was :amazed:

Unless you're talking about Ben Maxwell I've got to disagree.

http://www.chl.ca/CHLTopProspects/2006_skills.html

Brassard was middle of the pack at everything but the Puckhandleing drill (2nd).
 

King'sPawn

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nomorekids said:
But even back then, the gulf between Jagr and Sydor was well-known. Kariya and Gratton had question marks about them, but to some, Gratton's size against Kariya's made him a SAFER pick! There's always a HUGE drop-off in every draft, and it varies from year to year. All I'm saying is that if you have one guy who is maybe a little more risky...but still has the potential to be a great player...it doesn't hurt to go outside BPA if it fits your need. I'm not talking about reaching for a guy that's supposed to go in the second round in the top ten, a la the Capitals this year.

Yes, it does hurt.

Just because the publications (McKeen's, Red Line, CSS) have what look like consensus top picks, doesn't mean the teams have the same list. Nowhere close. Just because a particular player may be next on a team's collective list, doesn't mean they think the talent is equal. There could be a significant drop off in their collective opinions.

I mean, what if Detroit passed on drafting Datsyuk because they already had Fedorov and Yzerman on the team? Chris Osgood was their goalie, why not draft a goalie in the 6th round?

You address needs by FA signings and trades. Any GM that does otherwise is stupid.
 

nomorekids

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King'sPawn said:
Yes, it does hurt.

Just because the publications (McKeen's, Red Line, CSS) have what look like consensus top picks, doesn't mean the teams have the same list. Nowhere close. Just because a particular player may be next on a team's collective list, doesn't mean they think the talent is equal. There could be a significant drop off in their collective opinions.

I mean, what if Detroit passed on drafting Datsyuk because they already had Fedorov and Yzerman on the team? Chris Osgood was their goalie, why not draft a goalie in the 6th round?

You address needs by FA signings and trades. Any GM that does otherwise is stupid.


So, let's say, for sake of argument, that the Sabres desperately needed a defenseman...but they're looking at Thomas Vanek as BPA(which, by most sources, he was, at the time they picked).

They go on and take Vanek...rather than "risk" taking Phaneuf or Suter, who are considered a small dropoff, at the time? See what I'm saying? I'm not talking about stepping two miles outside BPA and taking Sean Brown over Jarome Iginla if you're Dallas in 95. I'm talking about looking at a guy who might go a pick or two later, who might be considered in that same tier, even if it's a small drop-off. If that's not possible, you look at what's on the table, compare it to your organizational chart, and if you can turn one excellent prospect into two great ones, you don't necessarily lose. It can and does happen every single year.
 

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King'sPawn said:
Yes, it does hurt.

Just because the publications (McKeen's, Red Line, CSS) have what look like consensus top picks, doesn't mean the teams have the same list. Nowhere close. Just because a particular player may be next on a team's collective list, doesn't mean they think the talent is equal. There could be a significant drop off in their collective opinions.

I mean, what if Detroit passed on drafting Datsyuk because they already had Fedorov and Yzerman on the team? Chris Osgood was their goalie, why not draft a goalie in the 6th round?

You address needs by FA signings and trades. Any GM that does otherwise is stupid.

Exactly...even in all the mock drafts one sees the reasonings that just because a team has a dearth in a given area that that is why they would draft a player.
 

Lalander977

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West said:
It should be noted that any impartial draft nerd can tell you that Nashville is one of the best drafting teams in the league. So the fact Clb isn't drafting as well is not a real fair critism. Although I'd say the rest are...

Top six in no order

Ottawa
Nashville
Detriot (for late round steals).
Washington (if you don't count last year what's with all the big D).
San Jose (slipping a bit IMO but still solid).
Buffalo (nice late round picks)

This might not be everybodies top 6 but they should be in everybodies top 10.

I have to disagree on Washington... Besides Eminger, Semin and maybe Fehr and Green (Ovechkin is a gimme), it's disastrous! Bad Scouting in the last 5-7 years is the reason of their present problems IMO

Here's the last 8 Caps drafts:

1998
49 G Jomar Cruz
59 C Todd Hornung
106 R Krys Barch
107 W Chris Corrinet
118 R Mike Siklenka
125 W Erik Wendell
179 D Nathan Forster
193 G Rastislav Stana
220 R Mike Farrell
251 C Blake Evans

1999
7 C Kris Beech
29 C Michal Sivek
31 C Charlie Stephens
34 D Ross Lupaschuk
37 D Nolan Yonkman
132 L Roman Tvrdon
175 R Kyle Clark
192 D David Johansson
219 F Maxim Orlov

2000
26 C Brian Sutherby
43 L Matt Pettinger
61 D Jakub Cutta
121 D Ryan Van Buskirk
163 F Ivan Nepriayev
289 D Bjorn Nord

2001
58 D Nathan Paetsch
90 L Owen Fussey
125 C Jeff Lucky
160 D Artem Ternavski
191 F Zbynek Novak
221 D Johnny Oduya
249 D Matthew Maglione
254 Petr Polcik
275 G Robert Mueller
284 F Viktor Hubl

2002
12 D Steve Eminger
13 L Alexander Semin
17 R Boyd Gordon
59 G Maxime Daigneault
77 D Patrick Wellar
92 C Derek Krestanovich
109 L Jevon Desautels
118 R Petr Dvorak
145 G Robert Gherson
179 C Marian Havel
209 W Joni Lindlof
242 Igor Ignatushkin
272 R Patric Blomdahl

2003
18 R Eric Fehr
83 F Stephen Werner
109 C Andreas Valdix
155 Josh Robertson
249 C Andrew Joudrey
279 R Mark Olafson

2004
1 L Alexander Ovechkin
27 D Jeff Schultz
29 D Mike Green
33 C Christopher Bourque
62 C Mikhail Yunkov
66 D Sami Lepisto
88 D Clayton Barthel
132 D Oscar Hedman
138 W Pasi Salonen
166 W Peter Guggisberg
197 R Andrew Gordon
230 G Justin Mrazek
263 C Travis Morin

2005
14 D Sasha Pokulok
27 D Joe Finley
109 D Andrew Thomas
118 D Patrick McNeill
143 G Daren Machesney
181 F Tim Kennedy
 

Le Golie

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nomorekids said:
So, let's say, for sake of argument, that the Sabres desperately needed a defenseman...but they're looking at Thomas Vanek as BPA(which, by most sources, he was, at the time they picked).

They go on and take Vanek...rather than "risk" taking Phaneuf or Suter, who are considered a small dropoff, at the time? See what I'm saying? I'm not talking about stepping two miles outside BPA and taking Sean Brown over Jarome Iginla if you're Dallas in 95. I'm talking about looking at a guy who might go a pick or two later, who might be considered in that same tier, even if it's a small drop-off. If that's not possible, you look at what's on the table, compare it to your organizational chart, and if you can turn one excellent prospect into two great ones, you don't necessarily lose. It can and does happen every single year.

There are a million other ways to fill positional needs in the NHL. On draft day, you pick the guy you think will be the best pro hockey player down the road, end of story. This isn't the NFL where 22-23 year old players are ready to put on the pads and make an impact. NHL GM's don't pick up The Hockey News draft guide at 7-11 on the way to the arena and say, 'hmmm, this guy is rated 7th but I have a few good RW'ers, this guy at 9th sounds pretty good and I love to fantasize about him playing with the guy we drafted last year on our first line in five years, so I'll take him instead.' They pay a lot of money to have a lot of experts evaluate these guys and decide who they think will be a better player.

Look at ANY draft between 1991 and 2001 and find four consecutive picks that turned out to be equal pros. It doesn't happen. You rely on your scouts to seek out and avoid the guys like Steve Kelly and correctly identify the guys like Shane Doan.

In the six years before 1997, the Islanders spent several top three round draft picks on defencemen. They had Kenny Jonsson, Scott Lachance and Bryan Berrard who were all good young defencemen that were already contributing. They had Zdeno Chara and the promising Jason Holland in the system. Yet their scouts identified that Eric Brewer was going to be a better player than Daniel Tkaczuk, even though they were neck and neck in all ratings. Who can argue with that?
 

triggrman

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Let me add that Poile doesn't draft by need, if he did we wouldn't have taken Parent last year and would have drafted more centers.

I do think in later rounds you draft more for need or need might influence the decision more.
 

Shelley#45

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nomorekids said:
But even back then, the gulf between Jagr and Sydor was well-known. Kariya and Gratton had question marks about them, but to some, Gratton's size against Kariya's made him a SAFER pick! There's always a HUGE drop-off in every draft, and it varies from year to year. All I'm saying is that if you have one guy who is maybe a little more risky...but still has the potential to be a great player...it doesn't hurt to go outside BPA if it fits your need. I'm not talking about reaching for a guy that's supposed to go in the second round in the top ten, a la the Capitals this year.

I believe it does hurt. If your team is in desperate need to upgrade a position, then the way to address the need is through free agency or a trade, kind of like how the predators needed some forward help last year. Did the draft a forward ? No because most gms understand you draft the best player available in the draft because your trying to get the best assests that you can deal for team needs, and so they took D Ryan Parent. Why didnt they draft a forward or center ? It was obviously an area of need since they aquired Kariya before the season and Sillinger during the season :dunno:
 

shelley1142

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GMDM is not that bad but we do need some more scouting help. I am a little worried about what happens to us in the draft if we do really good next year and don't have one of the top 10 picks. What then? Does the draft suddenly become a non factor? It may be a long time before we have an obvious choice in front of us like a Nash or a Brule.
 

KallioWeHardlyKnewYe

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May 30, 2003
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nomorekids said:
So, let's say, for sake of argument, that the Sabres desperately needed a defenseman...but they're looking at Thomas Vanek as BPA(which, by most sources, he was, at the time they picked).

They go on and take Vanek...rather than "risk" taking Phaneuf or Suter, who are considered a small dropoff, at the time? See what I'm saying? I'm not talking about stepping two miles outside BPA and taking Sean Brown over Jarome Iginla if you're Dallas in 95. I'm talking about looking at a guy who might go a pick or two later, who might be considered in that same tier, even if it's a small drop-off. If that's not possible, you look at what's on the table, compare it to your organizational chart, and if you can turn one excellent prospect into two great ones, you don't necessarily lose. It can and does happen every single year.

Ahh, but in your example, you conveniently left out Braydon Coburn who many had pegged as the top d-man (though Nashville wound up taking Suter ahead of him). They could have just as easily picked Coburn, filled a defensive need and, assuming the last few years played out relatively the same (which they wouldn't have, so this is a moot argument, but we're dealing with hypotheticals here so what they hey!) ... Anyway, they pick Coburn and wouldn't have had the benefit of him this year, potentially, or Vanek in theoretical 2006, since they opted for defense in 2003.

If we're revising history, we should try to revise it acurately. :)

I just say keep it simple and love the one you're with.

Your point though, which I took off on a tangent here to amuse myself, is not wrong. There is nothing wrong with looking at your board, looking at the trade options and evaluating the situation. That all seems to be done on a case-by-case basis and usually while the team is on the clock.

For me, sticking with the Blue Jackets as an example, it is hard to evaluate if that strategy works for the Blue Jackets this year because there are factors that still would need to be determined --
1. Who is available at six?
2. Who will be available at spot X?
3. What is the other team offering to drop to spot X?
There are myrid answers to those questions and all produce different outcomes.

Should Columbus consider it? Always, absolutely. Should they do it? Depends.

Looking at this draft and knowing what seems to be known now, I'd rather sit at six and pick one of Backstrom/Mueller/Brassard. The answers to my second and third questions above could easily change my stance though.
 
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King'sPawn

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nomorekids said:
So, let's say, for sake of argument, that the Sabres desperately needed a defenseman...but they're looking at Thomas Vanek as BPA(which, by most sources, he was, at the time they picked).

They go on and take Vanek...rather than "risk" taking Phaneuf or Suter, who are considered a small dropoff, at the time? See what I'm saying? I'm not talking about stepping two miles outside BPA and taking Sean Brown over Jarome Iginla if you're Dallas in 95. I'm talking about looking at a guy who might go a pick or two later, who might be considered in that same tier, even if it's a small drop-off. If that's not possible, you look at what's on the table, compare it to your organizational chart, and if you can turn one excellent prospect into two great ones, you don't necessarily lose. It can and does happen every single year.

Those defensemen may not have been considered a small drop off by the Buffalo scouts at the time. They may have seen three really bad games by Phaneuf and Suter and had them in the mid 20s on the list.

If the Sabres took Vanek, it's because he was the best player available and they didn't think they could trade down and still get him. Atlanta thought Bourret was the best player available, saw how teams were drafting, and traded down twice to get him. The Rangers saw a good chance of their best player available to being gone before they could pick... and thought the drop off from Marc Staal to the next player was a considerable difference. And I assure you, I would have strangled Dave Taylor if he passed up on Kopitar so he could take Tuukka Rask.

There is no benefit whatsoever to drafting by need, in my opinion. Even if the prospects make the NHL, it won't be for a couple years; a competent GM would have addressed those needs by free agency or trade by then. If he HASN'T, then you better hope he addresses the team's real need and drafts a new GM to take his job.
 

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