Question about McLean and the Blue Jackets...

[Jackets16]

Come on, man...picking Brule...or Nash\Zherdev for that matter is a no-brainer combined with a little bit of good luck. GMs don't make their money in the first round...especially when you're picking gimme-picks in the top ten. I look more toward signing guys like Todd Marchant, Scott Lachance, giving fair amounts of money to Andrew Cassels and Luke Richardson...as my criteria for calling GMDM a shaky GM. Does that say he's been all bad? No, not at all...but has he been "good" by any stretch? I can't say that he has.

tell me something, what the F does that have to do with the conversation. NOTHING. you tried to bash the jackets, got called out and now try to make an argument to back it up using fa signings. that has NOTHING to do with this.

 

[Jackets16]

Then maybe you think about dropping down a few spots, picking up an extra second rounder or even a decent defensive prospect in the process?

I feel like the Jackets would be well-served to take one draft and go balls-out in drafting d-men. Some of them have to pan out. Nashville was in a similar position at one point...and then went nuts drafting Suter, Klein, Weber, Stehlik...all in one draft...and now those first three are all NHL-ready or close. You guys have an admirable core of forwards, but that alone doesn't make a team. It'd just be nice to see some effort put into picking some of those types of guys.

again WRONG. there are no def worth taking. the drop off in talent from 6 to anywhere is way to big to trade down in this draft. drafting by need will get you no where fast. you always draft bpa in the high rounds, especially first. if it comes down to it, we can trade one of our great forwards for a dman. but if we draft a crappy dman out of need and he ends up being crappy. we have no good dman and we cant trade him for anything.

 

[SmokeyClause]

Look at your avatar. Think long and hard at the irony.

Read my profile and look long and hard at the section that states my favorite NHL team. Avatars can be misleading; the irony is all in your head.

 

[CBJSlash]

Nash, Zherdev, Brule, Picard vs. Suter, Hamhuis, Weber, Parent

I'll be nice and push that.

You have drafted some okay forwards, but I could say the same thing about your forwards that you could say about our defense.

I believe Vernon Fiddler had a stint on the top line this year........

You bring in Kariya and Sullivan, we bring in Foote..... THAT's how hockey teams work, they fill team needs in FA and trades.

 

[Le Golie]

"BPA" might be a factor at first overall or 20th overall...but if you're going to get a great player, no matter what, picking for position in the first ten picks is a pretty safe way to go. there might be a slight talent dropoff, but if it means that you never have to call up andy delmore, there's a payoff.

I'm sure Tampa Bay was happy with that payoff in 1993, taking their much needed LW in Chris Gratton instead of C Paul Kariya. The Penguins had a need for D in 1990 but resisted the temptation to take Darryl Sydor, banking on their notion that Jaromir Jagr was the best player available. That didn't work out too bad.

Picking for position is nothing short of stupid, no matter where you do it.

 

[LetsGOJackets!!]

Le Goalie..

I'm sure Tampa Bay was happy with that payoff in 1993, taking their much needed LW in Chris Gratton instead of C Paul Kariya. The Penguins had a need for D in 1990 but resisted the temptation to take Darryl Sydor, banking on their notion that Jaromir Jagr was the best player available. That didn't work out too bad.

Picking for position is nothing short of stupid, no matter where you do it.

Please stop, your making way to much sense. I would love to have Dion, Suter or Weber.. and definitely wanted Barker last year.. don't like the fact that all those young D studs are in the western conference and not on the Jackets.. but you can't bash the GM because the ping pong balls did not fall our way. I am certainly not going to put OK, AJ, Wharton, or Methot in the class of the 1st or 2nd dmen previously mentioned.. we are hoping they develop into NHL dmen. I won't second guess the picks we made, nor anyone else's for that matter.

Beauchy - we want you back buddy.. Hainsey is going to be quite nice with more ice time.

 

[nomorekids]

tell me something, what the F does that have to do with the conversation. NOTHING. you tried to bash the jackets, got called out and now try to make an argument to back it up using fa signings. that has NOTHING to do with this.

He defended the idea that GMDM is a good GM, using "brilliant" picks like Zherdev, Nash and Brule. I simply disagreed. I didn't try to "bash" anyone, there was no scorn or mockery in my post. I posted an honest observation, one that I stick to..and have done so civilly.

I know, I'm a Preds fan, though. I must be trying to make you cry.

 

[nomorekids]

I'm sure Tampa Bay was happy with that payoff in 1993, taking their much needed LW in Chris Gratton instead of C Paul Kariya. The Penguins had a need for D in 1990 but resisted the temptation to take Darryl Sydor, banking on their notion that Jaromir Jagr was the best player available. That didn't work out too bad.

Picking for position is nothing short of stupid, no matter where you do it.

But even back then, the gulf between Jagr and Sydor was well-known. Kariya and Gratton had question marks about them, but to some, Gratton's size against Kariya's made him a SAFER pick! There's always a HUGE drop-off in every draft, and it varies from year to year. All I'm saying is that if you have one guy who is maybe a little more risky...but still has the potential to be a great player...it doesn't hurt to go outside BPA if it fits your need. I'm not talking about reaching for a guy that's supposed to go in the second round in the top ten, a la the Capitals this year.

 

[Jackets16]

He defended the idea that GMDM is a good GM, using "brilliant" picks like Zherdev, Nash and Brule. I simply disagreed. I didn't try to "bash" anyone, there was no scorn or mockery in my post. I posted an honest observation, one that I stick to..and have done so civilly.

I know, I'm a Preds fan, though. I must be trying to make you cry.

you never answered the question genious. WHAT DOESE FREE AGENCY HAVE TO DO WITH YOUR ARGUMENT THAT MCLEAN IS A BAD GM FOR DRAFTING FORWARDS. i bolded it for you, maybe now you can read it clearly

 

[Jackets16]

But even back then, the gulf between Jagr and Sydor was well-known. Kariya and Gratton had question marks about them, but to some, Gratton's size against Kariya's made him a SAFER pick! There's always a HUGE drop-off in every draft, and it varies from year to year. All I'm saying is that if you have one guy who is maybe a little more risky...but still has the potential to be a great player...it doesn't hurt to go outside BPA if it fits your need. I'm not talking about reaching for a guy that's supposed to go in the second round in the top ten, a la the Capitals this year.

back up your argument then. WHO WOULD YOU DRAFT in this draft as a dman over brassard, mueller or backstrom

 

[nomorekids]

you never answered the question genious. WHAT DOESE FREE AGENCY HAVE TO DO WITH YOUR ARGUMENT THAT MCLEAN IS A BAD GM FOR DRAFTING FORWARDS. i bolded it for you, maybe now you can read it clearly

whoa, dude...chill out, seriously.

I didn't say McLean was a bad GM because of his drafting. I said he was a weak GM in general...something I've seen a good many Jackets fans agree with, on this board. It's not big deal, I think Trotz is a crummy coach, it's not a slight to either team.

 

[nomorekids]

back up your argument then. WHO WOULD YOU DRAFT in this draft as a dman over brassard, mueller or backstrom

maybe no one...but if i'm thinking of an extra second rounder or an additional promising defensive prospect being tossed my way...then maybe it's worth it to say, "okay, i have enough of this, why not start to accumulate some of that?"

 

[Count the Cash]

Picking for position is nothing short of stupid, no matter where you do it.

The only exception would be if you have a need and the players available are both evaluated about the same on your draft list. Say if we were picking around #12-16 then we might take a Nigel Williams or Bob Sabguinetti over say a James Sheppard or Chris Stewart.

However as you and others have stated, it makes no sense to put need over talent and pass at #6 on a potential 1st line forward in favor of say a #4/5 type defenseman.

As also stated, I like the defensive prospects that we are developing and don't think we're quite as weak in that position as it appears to others outside of Columbus.

 

[Jackets16]

The only exception would be if you have a need and the players available are both evaluated about the same on your draft list. Say if we were picking around #12-16 then we might take a Nigel Williams or Bob Sabguinetti over say a James Sheppard or Chris Stewart.

However as you and others have stated, it makes no sense to put need over talent and pass at #6 on a potential 1st line forward in favor of say a #4/5 type defenseman.

As also stated, I like the defensive prospects that we are developing and don't think we're quite as weak in that position as it appears to others outside of Columbus.

thats the point. you arent comparing williams or wishart to sheppard. you are comparing williams or wishart to mueller or brassard. not even a 2nd would make me make that exchange.

btw, if you compare nashville and columbus in their first 6 drafts, the breakdown is

nashville
1/6 - G
2/6 - D
3/6 - F

columbus
1/6 - G
1/6 - D
4/6 - F

so we have taken one more forward and thus one less def in our first 6 drafts

 

[LetsGOJackets!!]

Good points as usual Kallio -

Smid or Mezaros over Picard? Maybe. That is a fair point. But that is just one draft out of six where I think there is debate over the pick.
And that is a year where I think MacLean gladly would've taken Cam Barker if they were high enough. Also, MacLean admited Thelen was the other guy the thought about with the 8th pick.


Also, they did pick up Wharton, McQuaid and Russell in the 2nd and 3rd rounds of the last two drafts. It isn't like they don't know they need some defense.

We traded out of a spot where we could have gotten Ladd, picked up a second where we drafted Wharton, and still got Picard at #8 Ah this drafting is a crazy thing. Growing a franchise through the draft is hard, but the right thing to do. You have to be patient as an organization, win enough to grow a fan base and keep their interest. Sometimes overpay FA to get them to play for you... What I continue to wait for is a Ed Jovocop to shore up that blue line.

 

[pei fan]

back up your argument then. WHO WOULD YOU DRAFT in this draft as a dman over brassard, mueller or backstrom

I have to agree with RDriesen on this one. That's how the whole argument got started with the need a defenceman post. Sorry but there appears to be no defenceman that are as sure of bets as Brassard and Mueller are at forward.

 

[CBJSlash]

Smid or Meszaros is even only because hindsight is 20/20.

The next d-man that everyone thought would be off the board was AJ Thelen. I know he was the next on our list.

I'd rather have Picard than Thelen regardless of prospect depth.

 

[SmokeyClause]

Of course, can't have any thread on any board about the CBJ without the two Preds MODS mucking it up.

So true. NMK and I are actually members of an anti-Blue Jackets league whose primary purpose is to steer any and all meaningful CBJ conversation in an unproductive direction. I've probably already said too much, but it seems like you've sniffed us out so the league will probably dissolve in the coming weeks. As an external auditor, I'm quite adept at the document shredding that will need to occur so that any litigation from the paranoid BJs masses hits a dead end.

Ok first of all our, contrary to popular belief, our D isn't half bad. If they keep improving then they could turn out to be extremely good. Second, we have alot of really good young prospects that are pretty much a secret to the rest of the NHL. Hush don't tell anyone. Third, GMDM is no where near the one of the worst GM's. This guy was able to get Brule, the best player after Crosby in his draft, when 4 other Gm's passed him over. He also drafted Nash and Zherdev, two of the best young players and Fritsche along with alot of other players we have high hopes for.

There are alot of people who think GMDM is awful, heck alot of CBJ fans do, but that's what people think when your team isn't doing so hott. Gotta blame somebody right? These forwards that we draft "over and over again" are the future of our hockey club. I for one feel alot better having forwards, that know one end of the ice from the other, in reserve for a rainy day.

I have to admit that I don’t see the upside in this current crop of 'D' that you do. I see a top heavy group of two good defensemen who are very injury prone and then a hodge-podge of defensemen that are sometimes solid and sometimes shaky. I think they have the potential to be a pretty stout group, but 'extremely' good is pushing it. The only youngish player that you have with legit first pairing potential is Klesla. The rest of your young Dman are nowhere near that level in terms of realistic potential. Players like Hainsey and Johnson will be major successes (and a credit to the organization) if they turn into good 2nd pairing defensemen.

Though I don't see the upside, I don't think they are currently too bad. I think they just aren't good enough to stand on their own which is what they are currently asked to do. That's not a big deal though as a good system with a defensive orientation can protect them. It's much easier to have a weaker defensive crop and protect them with solid forwards than to have a weak offensive core and expect the defense to push up and generate offense. A player like Brule, who will come into the NHL with a mind for defense (though a greater mind for offense), is a start. Next year might be the first year where Columbus doesn't start out the season with defensive liabilities strewn throughout the forward ranks. Sure Zherdev and Nash don't always try their hardest in their own zone, but what hyper-talented youngster usually does? But they are better than earlier in their career, and there are some defensive-minded forwards like Fedorov to help them out.

Personally, I'm not a huge GMDM fan. He's not shown the ability to draft outside of the first two rounds, and that's something that I think separates the really good ones from the rest. The jury is still out on this though as there are several nice CBJ prospects (Pohl, Dupuis, etc) that are outside of the first two rounds. Another aspect of his tenure that I don't like was his initial willingness to build through free agency. Hopefully, he's learned his lesson somewhat because it does seem that they are now content to build from within. And lastly, I think his choices in coaching have been questionable, to say the least, and they have stunted the organization's growth. Is he the worst GM? No, but much like Waddell in Atlanta, outside of a few incredible first round successes brought on by poor results in the previous year, he's done little else to warrant being called successful.

This draft is shaping up for the Jackets like so many other drafts have for them in that they're going to be picking in a range that is too low to get the prime dman and too high to grab a guy from the next tier. I don't think you can blame MacLean too much for that. Again, best player available.

It is more circumstance than a willful disregard for their defense.

Also, they did pick up Wharton, McQuaid and Russell in the 2nd and 3rd rounds of the last two drafts. It isn't like they don't know they need some defense.

I agree with the notion that they've just missed some of the premium defensemen in past drafts, and I don't think they should draft a defenseman if they don't have him as highly rated as a forward. The Predators are the epitome of drafting BPA and ignoring need. Heading into the '05 draft, the Predators had a stable of defensive prospects as good as any in the league. They needed centers desperately. What did they do? They drafted defenseman with their first 3 picks. It's hard to argue with the results.

What I'm curious about is if GMDM has often considered moving from his spot in the draft into a spot where a defenseman makes sense? Can any fan shed light on this? It's not always possible/probable because the move has to create value for Columbus, but I'd be quite impressed if they jumped up and addressed their needs in dramatic fashion by selecting EJ. I don't see it happening because I think a few teams around CBJ's draft spot have similar desires, and I'm not sure St. Louis wants to hand over a guy like EJ to a rival without serious assets heading the other way.

CBJ's problems don't stem from a failure to draft defenseman in the first round. They stem from an inability to develop them in the latter rounds. There aren't a lot of players like Weber, Klein, Laakso, Franson, etc. in CBJ's prospect pool. It's difficult to completely condemn a staff for this because there's still plenty of time for many of their prospects to develop into studs, and it's not like it's easy. As much success as the Predators have had with defenseman, they've still had plenty of duds like Tomas Slovak, Ed Hill, and Brett Angel. In fact, you could argue that it took the Predators until their fourth draft to figured out how to draft a defenseman. They took 12 defenseman in their first three drafts. Only Skrastins is a full-time NHLer with Hutchinson and Helbling having seen spot duty on other NHL teams. Since then, they've drafted 20 defenseman. Hamhuis, Weber, and Suter are already NHLers with Klein, Parent, Laakso, Kulyash, Sulzer, Franson, etc. all showing great signs of becoming future top 4 NHL defensemen. If GMDM is experiencing the same learning curve as Poile and Co. did, we'll be seeing the fruits of his labor shortly.

 

[CBJSlash]

I know GMDM does not have the time to go do all of this scouting your claim he is responsible for. He has the time to watch the top prospects and gauge a first rounder, its the other scouts jobs to pick the rest of the players.

Don't blame Doug, blame our scouts.

Our first rounders look mighty good.



Oh and when is Nashville going to draft a center, geez you guys are really really really really hurting there.

 

[West]

It should be noted that any impartial draft nerd can tell you that Nashville is one of the best drafting teams in the league. So the fact Clb isn't drafting as well is not a real fair critism. Although I'd say the rest are...

Top six in no order

Ottawa
Nashville
Detriot (for late round steals).
Washington (if you don't count last year what's with all the big D).
San Jose (slipping a bit IMO but still solid).
Buffalo (nice late round picks)

This might not be everybodies top 6 but they should be in everybodies top 10.

 

[Jackets16]

I know GMDM does not have the time to go do all of this scouting your claim he is responsible for. He has the time to watch the top prospects and gauge a first rounder, its the other scouts jobs to pick the rest of the players.

Don't blame Doug, blame our scouts.

Our first rounders look mighty good.



Oh and when is Nashville going to draft a center, geez you guys are really really really really hurting there.

then they should be fired, i love the jackets and i will back most of our first round picks. but if any of us were as bad at our jobs as the jackets scouts after the high 2nd round, we'd be fired. i ll always defend the jackets, and i defend them on the def drafting in the first round, but not on their overall drafting.

 

[KallioWeHardlyKnewYe]

So true. NMK and I are actually members of an anti-Blue Jackets league whose primary purpose is to steer any and all meaningful CBJ conversation in an unproductive direction. I've probably already said too much, but it seems like you've sniffed us out so the league will probably dissolve in the coming weeks. As an external auditor, I'm quite adept at the document shredding that will need to occur so that any litigation from the paranoid BJs masses hits a dead end.



I have to admit that I don’t see the upside in this current crop of 'D' that you do. I see a top heavy group of two good defensemen who are very injury prone and then a hodge-podge of defensemen that are sometimes solid and sometimes shaky. I think they have the potential to be a pretty stout group, but 'extremely' good is pushing it. The only youngish player that you have with legit first pairing potential is Klesla. The rest of your young Dman are nowhere near that level in terms of realistic potential. Players like Hainsey and Johnson will be major successes (and a credit to the organization) if they turn into good 2nd pairing defensemen.

Though I don't see the upside, I don't think they are currently too bad. I think they just aren't good enough to stand on their own which is what they are currently asked to do. That's not a big deal though as a good system with a defensive orientation can protect them. It's much easier to have a weaker defensive crop and protect them with solid forwards than to have a weak offensive core and expect the defense to push up and generate offense. A player like Brule, who will come into the NHL with a mind for defense (though a greater mind for offense), is a start. Next year might be the first year where Columbus doesn't start out the season with defensive liabilities strewn throughout the forward ranks. Sure Zherdev and Nash don't always try their hardest in their own zone, but what hyper-talented youngster usually does? But they are better than earlier in their career, and there are some defensive-minded forwards like Fedorov to help them out.

Personally, I'm not a huge GMDM fan. He's not shown the ability to draft outside of the first two rounds, and that's something that I think separates the really good ones from the rest. The jury is still out on this though as there are several nice CBJ prospects (Pohl, Dupuis, etc) that are outside of the first two rounds. Another aspect of his tenure that I don't like was his initial willingness to build through free agency. Hopefully, he's learned his lesson somewhat because it does seem that they are now content to build from within. And lastly, I think his choices in coaching have been questionable, to say the least, and they have stunted the organization's growth. Is he the worst GM? No, but much like Waddell in Atlanta, outside of a few incredible first round successes brought on by poor results in the previous year, he's done little else to warrant being called successful.



I agree with the notion that they've just missed some of the premium defensemen in past drafts, and I don't think they should draft a defenseman if they don't have him as highly rated as a forward. The Predators are the epitome of drafting BPA and ignoring need. Heading into the '05 draft, the Predators had a stable of defensive prospects as good as any in the league. They needed centers desperately. What did they do? They drafted defenseman with their first 3 picks. It's hard to argue with the results.

What I'm curious about is if GMDM has often considered moving from his spot in the draft into a spot where a defenseman makes sense? Can any fan shed light on this? It's not always possible/probable because the move has to create value for Columbus, but I'd be quite impressed if they jumped up and addressed their needs in dramatic fashion by selecting EJ. I don't see it happening because I think a few teams around CBJ's draft spot have similar desires, and I'm not sure St. Louis wants to hand over a guy like EJ to a rival without serious assets heading the other way.

CBJ's problems don't stem from a failure to draft defenseman in the first round. They stem from an inability to develop them in the latter rounds. There aren't a lot of players like Weber, Klein, Laakso, Franson, etc. in CBJ's prospect pool. It's difficult to completely condemn a staff for this because there's still plenty of time for many of their prospects to develop into studs, and it's not like it's easy. As much success as the Predators have had with defenseman, they've still had plenty of duds like Tomas Slovak, Ed Hill, and Brett Angel. In fact, you could argue that it took the Predators until their fourth draft to figured out how to draft a defenseman. They took 12 defenseman in their first three drafts. Only Skrastins is a full-time NHLer with Hutchinson and Helbling having seen spot duty on other NHL teams. Since then, they've drafted 20 defenseman. Hamhuis, Weber, and Suter are already NHLers with Klein, Parent, Laakso, Kulyash, Sulzer, Franson, etc. all showing great signs of becoming future top 4 NHL defensemen. If GMDM is experiencing the same learning curve as Poile and Co. did, we'll be seeing the fruits of his labor shortly.

Good take Smokey. I think that is a fair and balanced look at the CBJ’s defensive prospect situation and a fair assessment of MacLean’s short comings -- especially the coaching situation, which I will go to my grave saying he set this team back at least a year or two by taking the reins himself and then handing them to Gallant.
Things seem to be looking up somewhat now though. I guess we’ll see next year.

On trading down, I would be surprised if he did this year. I don’t think MacLean is opposed to it. He’s done it twice before in the first -- 4th to 8th in ‘04 and 20th to 30th to 42nd in ‘02), but I think he (like so many others) break the drafts down into tiers.
If the organization thinks they’re on the front-end of a tier, they’ve moved down (or entertained it at least), but if they’re on the back end of tier, as I think they are this year, I don’t think you’ll see them move.
It all depends on what happens with the first five picks and who the CBJ are looking at at 6.

From listening to MacLean previously, I think that he would’ve entertained dropping a few slots last year and opting for a Kopitar, Staal, Bourdon or Parrent had Brule not fallen to them.

 

[SmokeyClause]

I know GMDM does not have the time to go do all of this scouting your claim he is responsible for. He has the time to watch the top prospects and gauge a first rounder, its the other scouts jobs to pick the rest of the players.

Don't blame Doug, blame our scouts.

Our first rounders look mighty good.

Of course he doesn't have the time to do all the scouting. No one is claiming him a terrible judge of hockey talent. But he's responsible for everything in the scouting side, and if the scouts aren't performing up to task, it is GMDM's fault.

The first rounders do look good. Of course, a lot of that is a function of averaging a top 5 pick every year. That's not a knock on GMDM, but he shouldn't be lauded for it in the same way that Ottawa gets credit for their first round successes since 1997.

 

[AgentNaslund*]

I think the way the Jacket's see it is they'll have a choice between Brassard and Mueller and I might tend to think they would lean towards Mueller but Brassard cannot be underestimated. I haven't seen Mueller skate so I don't know about that but Brassard is a very good skater.

I haven't seen Mueller skate so I don't know about that

at the CHL prospects skills competition, he won all the skating competitions puck relay, and speed skating. Some dude posted his times (on this board), and everyone elses times for those competitions. I was

 

[Rabid Ranger]

at the CHL prospects skills competition, he won all the skating competitions puck relay, and speed skating. Some dude posted his times (on this board), and everyone elses times for those competitions. I was

Focusing on Mueller and his skating for a minute, it should be noted that while his full lap time isn't the fastest he is among the quickest skaters in shorter bursts as well as while handling the puck. For a player like him who is more an in the zone playmaker rather than an end-to-ender that is significant. Hockey is rarely played end-to-end anyway, it's more about short bursts and doing things with the puck at high speed.