Line Combos: Question About Lines

[P10p]

I'd call him a wolf cub till he proves otherwise.

I'll call him alpha wolf until some punk in the NHL can prove otherwise.

 

[2Pair]

I'd call him a wolf cub till he proves otherwise.

WTF is a wolf cub? Is that some sort of Russian half wolf half bear? Maybe that's what the Wild logo actually is?

 

[mahnster]

WTF is a wolf cub? Is that some sort of Russian half wolf half bear? Maybe that's what the Wild logo actually is?

I'm guessing it is a close relative of the ManBearPig.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

I've never seen Fiala and Zuccarello on the same line, if Fiala can play left side it should be a no-brainer. Then hit the market and find a top center, and we'd have a very dangerous line.

I think I'd rather keep the ascending player on the side that he was ascending on and move the 32 year old over.

 

[AKL]

I think I'd rather keep the ascending player on the side that was ascending on and move the 32 year old over.

Yeah but then we wouldn’t be catering to the best and most well respected vet on the team. It’s already bad enough that Boudreau disrespected him by not putting him in the best position to succeed for the first 50 games of the season, now you want to play him on his off-side?

 

[Webster]

I think I'd rather keep the ascending player on the side that he was ascending on and move the 32 year old over.

Zucc can also play left side, so why not. Something they should try, it makes sense to have Fiala on a line with one of our best playmakers.

 

[Digitalbooya]

Zucc can also play left side, so why not. Something they should try, it makes sense to have Fiala on a line with one of our best playmakers.

Please explain from a statistical standpoint why Zuccarello would ever play above Parise.

 

[P10p]

Please explain from a statistical standpoint why Zuccarello would ever play above Parise.

Because over the last few years their scoring rates are pretty similar.....

 

[Digitalbooya]

Because over the last few years their scoring rates are pretty similar.....

Last 2 seasons:
Parise .75ppg > Zuccarello .68ppg

Parise has demonstrated chemistry with Fiala in that he's been on Fiala's line when Fiala exploded for points. Zuccarello has shown zero chemistry with anyone on the team. The misuse argument is bullshit too. He was so "misused" by the coaches that he has the third highest TOI/game among forwards and the third highest PP TOI/game, both ahead of Fiala... He was so misused that his most common linemates on the year are Zucker and Staal at 8%, the most common line on the team all season, and Parise and Staal. The dude got to play with our 1C and two of our best LWers for a HUGE chunk of the season. The true "misuse" of Zuccarello was that he wasn't demoted sooner! The guy is getting force fed opportunities and is only scoring at a slightly higher per 60 rate than Kunin/Donato. Many people consider Eriksson Ek as not very offensively oriented, yet his 5v5 p/60 puts him right next to Zuccarello and he had a grand total of 3 fewer 5v5 points overall in 3 less games. 5v5 Kunin had two less points overall than Zuccarello in two less games. People call Eriksson Ek and Kunin third liners, yet they are basically as effective as Zuccarello. Know what else is great about Eriksson Ek and Kunin? They are useful in the penalty kill department.

Minnesota should be developing players like Kunin, Donato, Greenway, etc to play a higher role on the team. Not signing a soon to be declining old vet, if not already, to a contract that is too big and too long.

 

[P10p]

Last 2 seasons:
Parise .75ppg > Zuccarello .68ppg

Parise has demonstrated chemistry with Fiala in that he's been on Fiala's line when Fiala exploded for points. Zuccarello has shown zero chemistry with anyone on the team. The misuse argument is bullshit too. He was so "misused" by the coaches that he has the third highest TOI/game among forwards and the third highest PP TOI/game, both ahead of Fiala... He was so misused that his most common linemates on the year are Zucker and Staal at 8%, the most common line on the team all season, and Parise and Staal. The dude got to play with our 1C and two of our best LWers for a HUGE chunk of the season. The true "misuse" of Zuccarello was that he wasn't demoted sooner! The guy is getting force fed opportunities and is only scoring at a slightly higher per 60 rate than Kunin/Donato. Many people consider Eriksson Ek as not very offensively oriented, yet his 5v5 p/60 puts him right next to Zuccarello and he had a grand total of 3 fewer 5v5 points overall in 3 less games. 5v5 Kunin had two less points overall than Zuccarello in two less games. People call Eriksson Ek and Kunin third liners, yet they are basically as effective as Zuccarello. Know what else is great about Eriksson Ek and Kunin? They are useful in the penalty kill department.

I get your argument and I do see holes in it, but no point elaborating on those just quite yet. I'll simply say, if you think TOI is equal to putting a player in a place to succeed, well that's not right.

Also, lets just agree that over the last few years they have similar rates, we all know how to use stats to fit our argument. For example, I said a few years in my original post, and you selected two years, conveniently leaving out Parise and his 24 point season. If we stretch is to 4 years, Zuccarello edges Parise with a .69ppg for Mats vs a .68ppg for Zach. If we stretch it back 5 years, the edge skews even more in favor of Zuccarello. So for you to attack that point is and ridiculous and very disingenuous use of stats.

I'm not too thrilled with Zuc at all in terms of his play on Minnesota

BUT, if we're making the argument that Zuc wasn't used correctly here, using his stats last season wouldn't really dispel that myth. Two groups of thinking will look at it in two different ways, with neither necessarily being proven correct YET. You can look at all the line combos he has had as "chances" but someone else will see it as a revolving door with no chance to build chemistry. You can point to his large TOI but someone else can easily say and prove that TOI is not the only variable to "proper usage".

All I guess I am trying to get at is that Zuccarello is a proven commodity, a proven play maker, a great locker room presence based on what I've read, and like it or not, we are tied to him for a while. Don't let posters like Webster sour you on a player. No he hasn't performed to his potential. But he is 3 years younger than Parise, with a proven track record.

 

[2Pair]

I'm not sure how anyone can watch the Wild and think that Parise should play in front of anyone at 5 on 5?

 

[Webster]

Please keep in mind that there's a reason why Zucc was on pace for 47 instead of 60 this season.

The Boudreau issue was one, playing part of the season on a line with players that just aren't good enough for him to be effective is another. Got hurt a couple of times, but still played.

Once this stuff has been sorted out you'll see why he's worth 6M a year.

Anyway...Kaprizov will be Zucc's perfect linemate once he's here.

 

[Digitalbooya]

I get your argument and I do see holes in it, but no point elaborating on those just quite yet. I'll simply say, if you think TOI is equal to putting a player in a place to succeed, well that's not right.

Also, lets just agree that over the last few years they have similar rates, we all know how to use stats to fit our argument. For example, I said a few years in my original post, and you selected two years, conveniently leaving out Parise and his 24 point season. If we stretch is to 4 years, Zuccarello edges Parise with a .69ppg for Mats vs a .68ppg for Zach. If we stretch it back 5 years, the edge skews even more in favor of Zuccarello. So for you to attack that point is and ridiculous and very disingenuous use of stats.

I'm not too thrilled with Zuc at all in terms of his play on Minnesota

BUT, if we're making the argument that Zuc wasn't used correctly here, using his stats last season wouldn't really dispel that myth. Two groups of thinking will look at it in two different ways, with neither necessarily being proven correct YET. You can look at all the line combos he has had as "chances" but someone else will see it as a revolving door with no chance to build chemistry. You can point to his large TOI but someone else can easily say and prove that TOI is not the only variable to "proper usage".

All I guess I am trying to get at is that Zuccarello is a proven commodity, a proven play maker, a great locker room presence based on what I've read, and like it or not, we are tied to him for a while. Don't let posters like Webster sour you on a player. No he hasn't performed to his potential. But he is 3 years younger than Parise, with a proven track record.

I mean, 3 years ago Parise couldn’t even go out to a restaurant without needing to lie down in the back of his SUV while traveling there. If that’s what it takes to finally make Zuccarello look better... that’s pretty sad.

Zuccarello is well known as more of a playmaker. He was put on a line with three of our best goal scorers this year (Staal, Parise, Zucker). How is that not putting him in a position to succeed? Webster’s argument was that if he was given better players to play with and more ice time then he’d be back to normal. Well, it’s really hard to give him better players when those guys are the best we have to offer and we are already gifting him top 3 forward minutes. Can’t build chemistry? Zucker-Staal-Zuccarello was the most common line for Minnesota for the entire season. It says a lot to me considering Zucker only played 45 out of 69 Wild games this year. I don’t buy the revolving door argument.

And I wouldn’t be as sour about Zuccarello if I didn’t read all the lame excuses. I’d still be pretty sour though given his underperformance and the contract length/cap hit. That also doesn’t stop me from expecting him to put up 55+ points and calling out his excuse makers when he doesn’t perform to that.

 

[DeagleJenkins]

Please keep in mind that there's a reason why Zucc was on pace for 47 instead of 60 this season.

The Boudreau issue was one, playing part of the season on a line with players that just aren't good enough for him to be effective is another. Got hurt a couple of times, but still played.

Once this stuff has been sorted out you'll see why he's worth 6M a year.

Anyway...Kaprizov will be Zucc's perfect linemate once he's here.

what makes you think kap will play with zucc?

 

[P10p]

I mean, 3 years ago Parise couldn’t even go out to a restaurant without needing to lie down in the back of his SUV while traveling there. If that’s what it takes to finally make Zuccarello look better... that’s pretty sad.

Zuccarello is well known as more of a playmaker. He was put on a line with three of our best goal scorers this year (Staal, Parise, Zucker). How is that not putting him in a position to succeed? Webster’s argument was that if he was given better players to play with and more ice time then he’d be back to normal. Well, it’s really hard to give him better players when those guys are the best we have to offer and we are already gifting him top 3 forward minutes. Can’t build chemistry? Zucker-Staal-Zuccarello was the most common line for Minnesota for the entire season. It says a lot to me considering Zucker only played 45 out of 69 Wild games this year. I don’t buy the revolving door argument.

And I wouldn’t be as sour about Zuccarello if I didn’t read all the lame excuses. I’d still be pretty sour though given his underperformance and the contract length/cap hit. That also doesn’t stop me from expecting him to put up 55+ points and calling out his excuse makers when he doesn’t perform to that.

So Parise gets a pass with his back but no mention of Zuccarellos life threatening injury...

Again, you've soured so much on zuc due to personal bias against Webster lol. I get it, it's annoying listening to excuses. But that's exactly what you're doing against zuccarello, you are just presenting the other extreme.

 

[P10p]

And I'll add, in your own words, the bar seems to be set at 55 points. So for all this commotion and hate he is paced 47 points. Are the 8 points out in his first season really this critical, to let those 8 points fuel this debate to this point.

 

[AKL]

what makes you think kap will play with zucc?

If we finally, for the first time ever, have two hyper talented offensive players on the team, and whichever coach is employed doesn’t give them a substantial chance together, that coach should be fired.

On opening night, there is almost no reason that Kaprizov-x-Fiala should not be the most utilized line combo in any and every offensive situation that occurs.

 

[Digitalbooya]

Please keep in mind that there's a reason why Zucc was on pace for 47 instead of 60 this season.

The Boudreau issue was one, playing part of the season on a line with players that just aren't good enough for him to be effective is another. Got hurt a couple of times, but still played.

Once this stuff has been sorted out you'll see why he's worth 6M a year.

Anyway...Kaprizov will be Zucc's perfect linemate once he's here.

Who should Boudreau have put with Zuccarello this past year?

 

[Webster]

If we finally, for the first time ever, have two hyper talented offensive players on the team, and whichever coach is employed doesn’t give them a substantial chance together, that coach should be fired.

On opening night, there is almost no reason that Kaprizov-x-Fiala should not be the most utilized line combo in any and every offensive situation that occurs.

You talk as if Kaprizov will be another Panarin in this league from his very first game. I think Kaprizov would prefer playing with a top level veteran for a while, at least this would be the smart move. Don't burn the guy, you've heard it before...great player in the KHL, became a bust in the NHL.

Btw...who speaks Russian on this team?

 

[Digitalbooya]

So Parise gets a pass with his back but no mention of Zuccarellos life threatening injury...

Again, you've soured so much on zuc due to personal bias against Webster lol. I get it, it's annoying listening to excuses. But that's exactly what you're doing against zuccarello, you are just presenting the other extreme.

The injury that happened 5 years ago? I never once brought up any stats that were not in the last two years. You are the only one bringing up 3+ years ago... 5 years ago isn't relevant to today, just like Parise 3 years ago isn't relevant to today.

How am I presenting the other extreme? I literally brought facts and stats in to make my argument. What are my excuses exactly?

 

[AKL]

You talk as if Kaprizov will be another Panarin in this league from his very first game. I think Kaprizov would prefer playing with a top level veteran for a while, at least this would be the smart move. Don't burn the guy, you've heard it before...great player in the KHL, became a bust in the NHL.

Btw...who speaks Russian on this team?

Don’t quite care what you think. Historically your thoughts about this actual team are heavily biased towards Zuccarello and don’t mean anything.

If you want Kaprizov to play with a top level veteran for a while, Staal can center he and Fiala. Then everyone’s happy, right?

 

[P10p]

The injury that happened 5 years ago? I never once brought up any stats that were not in the last two years. You are the only one bringing up 3+ years ago... 5 years ago isn't relevant to today, just like Parise 3 years ago isn't relevant to today.

How am I presenting the other extreme? I literally brought facts and stats in to make my argument. What are my excuses exactly?

You dismissed the fact that zuc has outpaced parise over the last 3, 4 and 5 years statistically when this whole thing started with you asking for a reason statistically speaking why zuc should play ahead of parise. I gave you an extremely valid point. I asked for you to look at the pace over the last few years and you picked the last two, which is clearly cherry picking stats.

Do you expect parise to continue his 2 year pace into next season at 35 let alone beyond that.

His first year here went a little south. But again I pointed out he only missed the mark by 8 points by your own measuring stick.

If you're not seeing the bias in your own words theres literally no point continuing.

To say anyone is overly happy with zuc is a lie. To say that parise is a defacto better player than zuccarello right now would also be a lie.

 

[Digitalbooya]

And I'll add, in your own words, the bar seems to be set at 55 points. So for all this commotion and hate he is paced 47 points. Are the 8 points out in his first season really this critical, to let those 8 points fuel this debate to this point.

I'm concerned that 45ish points might be his ceiling going forward into his decline as a player. I'll defer to next season I suppose. There won't be any excuse for not getting 55 points, aside from injury.

 

[P10p]

I'm concerned that 45ish points might be his ceiling going forward into his decline as a player. I'll defer to next season I suppose. There won't be any excuse for not getting 55 points, aside from injury.

This I can easily agree with! If he fails to hit above 45pts at 33, this contract starts looking alot worse. But I'll at least give him another season before I pass judgement.

 

[DeagleJenkins]

If we finally, for the first time ever, have two hyper talented offensive players on the team, and whichever coach is employed doesn’t give them a substantial chance together, that coach should be fired.

On opening night, there is almost no reason that Kaprizov-x-Fiala should not be the most utilized line combo in any and every offensive situation that occurs.

I agree completely, it should be kap/fiala - staal - kap/fiala as our first line and be force fed the offensive zone starts.