Euro: QF: Belgium v Italy, 7/2/2021

[Eisen]

Next year is the last kick at the can for this Belgium team. All that talent and all they have to show for it is a WC semi final.

The question I ask myself is - which Golden Generation under achieved more - Belgium, or Englands team of the noughties?

Of course they didn't win a title but I wouldn't call it underperforming. They just played other good teams. What should the 70s Dutch say? Oh, and England had a Golden Generation in the 00s? It's not a Golden Generation when you have to play Crouch.

 

[Suiteness]

Of course they didn't win a title but I wouldn't call it underperforming. They just played other good teams. What should the 70s Dutch say? Oh, and England had a Golden Generation in the 00s? It's not a Golden Generation when you have to play Crouch.

Sol Campbell, Rio Ferdinand, Ashley Cole, Scholes, Becks, Shearer, Owen. That was a pretty damn good team, though more late nineties than noughties.

 

[Mount Suribachi]

Sol Campbell, Rio Ferdinand, Ashley Cole, Scholes, Becks, Shearer, Owen. That was a pretty damn good team, though more late nineties than noughties.

John Terry, Frank Lampard, Wayne Rooney, Steven Gerrard...

Saying that wasn't a GG for England because of Crouch (Heskey, Vassell, Bent, Defoe etc) is like talking about this Belgium team and going "yeah but Fellaini"

 

[Theokritos]

Of course they didn't win a title but I wouldn't call it underperforming. They just played other good teams. What should the 70s Dutch say?

The 1970s Dutch reached the final in two consecutive WCs and in between they reached the European semifinal (losing in extra time against the eventual champion). Belgium? One semifinal and several QF exits (including one against Wales). That spells underperformance to me. (But then, compare the bench crews: Rinus Michels & Ernst Happel vs Marc Wilmots & Roberto Martinez. That's on the Belgian FA, though.)

 

[Eisen]

Sol Campbell, Rio Ferdinand, Ashley Cole, Scholes, Becks, Shearer, Owen. That was a pretty damn good team, though more late nineties than noughties.

Horrible goaltenders, Campbell and Ferdinand were always raved about and never performed outside clubfootball. The rest is indeed more late 90s.

 

[Eisen]

John Terry, Frank Lampard, Wayne Rooney, Steven Gerrard...

Saying that wasn't a GG for England because of Crouch (Heskey, Vassell, Bent, Defoe etc) is like talking about this Belgium team and going "yeah but Fellaini"

And horrible tending and defense. Never came together as a team. I remember not being scared of them a little bit. All great clubplayers, though.

 

[sr edler]

Lots of very good teams never win a World Cup. It's not like the World Cup is played every year, so over a generation (10–12 years), you'll only get 3 chances at best, and some good teams will miss out. And a lot of variables can play in, such as injuries, form, a nutty coach, or whatever.

That Argentine generation with Ayala, Chamot, Zanetti, Simeone, (Redondo), Veron, Almeyda, Ortega, Batistuta & Crespo also never won a World Cup. I don't even think they even reached the semi-finals. And that's a better group than the English one, honestly, at least pitch wise. Those English names looks good on paper, but they never looked very intimidating together on the actual pitch, except outside of rare qualifying games or in flashes.

 

[Vasilevskiy]

Verratti

He was good. So was Barella. Very, very good. Chiesa and Insigne also. Best I've ever seem Italy play

 

[Savi]

That Argentine generation with Ayala, Chamot, Zanetti, Simeone, (Redondo), Veron, Almeyda, Ortega, Batistuta & Crespo also never won a World Cup. I don't even think they even reached the semi-finals. And that's a better group than the English one, honestly, at least pitch wise. Those English names looks good on paper, but they never looked very intimidating together on the actual pitch, except outside of rare qualifying games or in flashes.

2006 Argentina for me is the best team I've ever seen that didn't win the WC. Apart from maybe goaltending, that team had everything.

As for the Belgium NT. Only 2016 was really a choke. And even then, apart from Alderweireld, the entire defence was injured/suspended for the Wales game, so a bit unlucky too.
2014 we lost to the team that should have won the final if not for Higuain, 2018 we lost to the eventual champions, 2020 probably the same.

 

[Savi]

LOL there's a rumour floating that the Martinez will be gone by Monday and Henry will take over

 

[Evilo]

LOL there's a rumour floating that the Martinez will be gone by Monday and Henry will take over

Ouch.

 

[Theokritos]

2006 Argentina for me is the best team I've ever seen that didn't win the WC. Apart from maybe goaltending, that team had everything.

As for the Belgium NT. Only 2016 was really a choke. And even then, apart from Alderweireld, the entire defence was injured/suspended for the Wales game, so a bit unlucky too.
2014 we lost to the team that should have won the final if not for Higuain, 2018 we lost to the eventual champions, 2020 probably the same.

Great teams find a way to overcome strong opponents and at least make a final here or there. But that's the issue: Belgium had plenty of great pieces in place, yet they never formed a great team when it mattered.

Speaking of the opponents: Argentina 2014 needed extra time against Switzerland and penalties against Netherlands, but not against Belgium – who, BTW, looked pedestrian even against the USA. And this year Italy was challenged harder by Austria than by Belgium.

I find it very hard to look at Belgium and not think they underperformed relative to their talent level. They absolutely should have made a final somewhere along the way.

 

[Savi]

We can still make the Nations League final
Thing is, we never had elite coaching. That could have made all the difference in the world. Both Argentina '14 and France '18 were able to shut us down with relative ease - both times our manager didn't find any solutions to a defensive front.
Last night, while we didn't play great, we did have a number of great chances so I wouldn't say Austria challenged Italy harder.

 

[Bondurant]

Missed the games yesterday as I had a lot on my plate at work. Catching up on the recaps this morning. How was Immobile not booked for his disgraceful antics?

 

[sr edler]

And this year Italy was challenged harder by Austria than by Belgium.

This year Hazard wasn't his former self and De Bruyne was injured. It's one thing if you have these guys healthy and at their best, laying an egg. But that wasn't the case here.

 

[Mount Suribachi]

And horrible tending and defense. Never came together as a team. I remember not being scared of them a little bit. All great clubplayers, though.

Yeah we never really replaced Seaman in net, even to this day.

Ferdinand was immense in the 02 WC which was why Fergie paid a world record £30M for him. But after that he was as mediocre as the rest. Our only consistent performers in tournaments were Ashley Cole and the much maligned Owen Hargreaves.

 

[Eisen]

Yeah we never really replaced Seaman in net, even to this day.

Ferdinand was immense in the 02 WC which was why Fergie paid a world record £30M for him. But after that he was as mediocre as the rest. Our only consistent performers in tournaments were Ashley Cole and the much maligned Owen Hargreaves.

Hargreaves was what he was. I saw him plenty in Munich. A good defensive midfielder, not worldclass, but good,with flashes of brilliance. Just don't expect any scoring from him, then he is fine. It's easy to criticise a player like that. A very unsexy role. As an aside, I honestly believe that that's why everyone always says that Sammer was the guy in 96 for Germany. Eilts was the man of the tournament to me. No mistakes, not one.

 

[S E P H]

Absolutely brilliant match, Italy and Denmark seem like the chosen teams. Verratti again was the best player on the pitch and that was with a pretty early yellow as well. Belgium should've ran the ball at him during the second half, but that's easier said than done when you factor in how good he is. This entire loss rests on the hands of the Belgium Football Federation and their absolute stupidity in hiring Martinez as a manager. You have all that stinkin' talent and you play counterattacking football the entire tournament, pathetic. Italy looked quite vulnerable when Belgium actually played direct style of football, especially Doku who was simply world class last night. I feel for Lukaku because it seemed like there were three Italians around him every time and we all know that he's a player who needs a bit of free space to make something happen and there wasn't any.

 

[Lepardi]

Horrible goaltenders

Goaltenders? In football?

 

[Lepardi]

Lots of very good teams never win a World Cup. It's not like the World Cup is played every year, so over a generation (10–12 years), you'll only get 3 chances at best, and some good teams will miss out. And a lot of variables can play in, such as injuries, form, a nutty coach, or whatever.

Exactly. The top teams in the world are so close to each other in quality that coincidence plays a massive part in the knockout stages of major tournaments. Football is also a very low-scoring sport and the knockout stage is best-of-one, which heavily increases the role of coincidence. The odds of Switzerland finishing ahead of France in a 38-match league season would be way worse than the odds of them beating France in a single elimination game.

According to the World Cup 2022 odds France is still the best team in Europe, despite their early exit this time around. There's absolutely no reason to believe anyone in this thread has a better grasp of the teams than the betting market.

 

[Savi]

Absolutely brilliant match, Italy and Denmark seem like the chosen teams. Verratti again was the best player on the pitch and that was with a pretty early yellow as well. Belgium should've ran the ball at him during the second half, but that's easier said than done when you factor in how good he is. This entire loss rests on the hands of the Belgium Football Federation and their absolute stupidity in hiring Martinez as a manager. You have all that stinkin' talent and you play counterattacking football the entire tournament, pathetic. Italy looked quite vulnerable when Belgium actually played direct style of football, especially Doku who was simply world class last night. I feel for Lukaku because it seemed like there were three Italians around him every time and we all know that he's a player who needs a bit of free space to make something happen and there wasn't any.

The idea of playing counterattacking football in this tournament actually isn't pathetic or stupid, if you're Belgium. Because our defense is pretty old, and slow, we can't play as wide open as we used to anymore. And because we also have fast forwards who thrive on forward runs, playing on the counterattack seems like pure logic.
The problem wasn't the idea of playing the counterattack itself - it was the tactics to make it happen. You need a certain setup, certain guidelines of you will, routes to run, specific tasks for players. And that's where Martinez failed.

 

[S E P H]

The idea of playing counterattacking football in this tournament actually isn't pathetic or stupid, if you're Belgium. Because our defense is pretty old, and slow, we can't play as wide open as we used to anymore. And because we also have fast forwards who thrive on forward runs, playing on the counterattack seems like pure logic.
The problem wasn't the idea of playing the counterattack itself - it was the tactics to make it happen. You need a certain setup, certain guidelines of you will, routes to run, specific tasks for players. And that's where Martinez failed.

That's a fair assessment Savi, but I argue that some of the best moments of Belgium had to deal with them running at their opponent directly. Maybe - as you wrote - they weren't able to do it for long periods of time like other nations, but Belgium was so damn slow in their build up of counterattacking and I think that directly lies on the hands of BFF on hiring Martinez. Hard to counterattack when allow all the opposing midfielders to setup in their formation you know?

 

[Savi]

Oh I totally agree. The difference between Belgium and Italy last night when either team recovered the ball especially was night and day. Part of that also has to do with Witsel, De Bruyne and (well, not last night) Hazard just not being a 100%, with Meunier not being as good as he has been in the past, with Tielemans having a terrible EC. I'm not going to put the full blame on Martinez, however it's clear he's just a lousy tactician.

 

[Jussi]

Spinazzola on his way to get operated in Finland by Sakari Orava, much like Dembele.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

The 1970s Dutch reached the final in two consecutive WCs and in between they reached the European semifinal (losing in extra time against the eventual champion). Belgium? One semifinal and several QF exits (including one against Wales). That spells underperformance to me. (But then, compare the bench crews: Rinus Michels & Ernst Happel vs Marc Wilmots & Roberto Martinez. That's on the Belgian FA, though.)

Holland has been at a higher level than Belgium as in like pretty much all of living memory. When I think of Belgium I think of a footballing nation similar to Denmark, Czechia, Croatia. Not a big boy but occasionally blessed with some outstanding talent, but never the depth to really run with the big boys over a longer time frame.