QC: Videotron Back to Back Sell Outs (Remparts) NHL Discussion Part 1

Lady Stanley

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May 26, 2021
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These deals are staggered. It’s unlikely they’ll ever expire at the same time, so somebody is always going to be last. Covid suppressed the US deal a bit so it’s not even as strong as it could’ve been.

Then let them put that $100m on paper and let the owners vote on it. Split evenly, that works out to $3.125m/yr. I doubt the American owners are going for it at that price but I guess you could try.

It's 30 million over a decade, and that's in addition to the money they're getting.

You could easily argue it'd add 100 million in value per team;

They’re paying to watch hockey. Championships are never guaranteed.
So which Canadian team is about to win a cup? If it ain't the sens, umm it could be a very long time.
 

Frenchy

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If you split each division you can actually get travel to go down for most teams.

18 games against 3 teams, 16 against 4 is a massive drop in travel, when you factor in the flexibility it gives you.





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A few years ago this kind of realignment has been talked about at the BOG. They wanted to create smaller divisions with the winner of each division automaticly in the playoffs. Then they talked about having two all Canadian divisions ( east - West ) , to assure to have at least two Canadian teams in the playoffs each season and therefore making sure to have bigger TV ratings each year.
 
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Lady Stanley

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Even though college football sucks quality wise, you are right.
Sort of a tangent

It's always odd to me most Eastern Canadians look down on the CFL and yet it's our equivalent of college football only more talented. So bizarre to me to be honest.
 
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BMN

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Jun 2, 2021
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It's always odd to me most Eastern Canadians look down on the CFL and yet it's our equivalent of college football only more talented. So bizarre to me to be honest.
PS, by "Eastern," I assume you mean Ontario, which is really Central (Edit: well, OK "centre-east") and not Eastern (signed every single Atlantic Canadian ever ;-) )

And yes, it's quite peculiar but I think a lot of it comes down to: "Do you care more about the level of play vs. the possibility of seeing the stars of tomorrow?" Being from Cape Breton, I remember losing the AHL Oilers and then getting the QMJHL a couple of years later and watching a couple of my friends having a friendly banter about which was the better viewing experience. One said he liked having the Oilers because the quality of AHL play so was much better; the other said "you're never going to see the Gretzky of tomorrow in the AHL."
 

KevFu

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May 22, 2009
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The Canadian division was a big deal when it hit and that was despite being cut off the knees zero less divisional play.

I don't see the math of not boosting the rogers-bell contacts

No one is saying the Canadian division was fun and great TV. It's just simple Kantian theory: Greater good for the Greater Number. BEFORE talking exact dollar values, you have something BETTER for 7 or 8, and categorically WORSE for 15 to 17 teams.

This is why the jump isn't as extreme as it sounds. Yes if you put them in the current pacific division it'd be an absolute train wreck. But when you use the 6 and 4 format it's very different.

I don't see it, but what's your 6 and 4, and schedule matrix for this whole concept?


It's about the national deal. It gives you a chance for a $1.3 billion combined deal.

That's huge for team valuations.

That's not to mention all the selfish owners who get something they want.

Right, no one is disputing that that the TV deal gets bigger. It's a question of how much bigger is it getting DOING THIS rather than NOT DOING THIS.

TV contracts get bigger, that's just what they do. You need to know if the offer from Canadian TV is going to be X dollars larger doing an All-Canadian division vs just being bigger because it's a new TV deal at a higher rate.

And that's why I go back to Kantian. You need the difference between what Canadian TV is offering for an All-Canadian Division to be FORTY TIMES the highest financial inconvenience for a US team making the change!


Using the Quebec Nord-Yotes (Co-Diques?) part of your plan, there's 24 US teams and 8 Canadian. But the Canadian TV deal pays a 2-1 rate to Canada teams. So 8 Canadian teams get "2 shares" and 24 US teams get one, that's 40 shares.

I don't see how you can increase the shares to 40 times the negatives when you have more teams in a worse situation than teams getting a better one.



The idea is that every Canada vs Canada game is "double" the viewership compared to CAN vs US, because there's TWO cities (or fan bases) watching instead of one, so TV pays more for that. This is logically sound, no one disputes it.

The two problems are:
1) That principle is IN THEORY true if All Canadian team viewer bases are equal, but they're not. Winnipeg is a lot smaller than Toronto. Replacing Boston on Toronto's schedule with Winnipeg isn't doubling from 10 million Leaf fans to 20 million Leafs/Jets fans. It's probably more like 10 to 12.

The TV execs are going to do all that math and make their offers accordingly.


2) Division play is 32% of the schedule. If you keep the schedule matrix, but change to an All Canadian division, you're going from 57 of 574 total team games being All Canada matchups (9.9%) to 104 of 656 (15.6%).

So you're really only "doubling" the viewership of 5.7% of games!

You mentioned two things: The 2021 All Canadian Division being AWESOME for viewership... Because it was 56 games with NO non-division play, you got 196 All-Canada games, almost twice what an All-Canadian division would be in the current matrix.

Now, the logical response is "but we're changing the Matrix!" And I say "YEAH, I've been on board with changing the Matrix from home/away vs everyone to something smarter for a decade now! You can KEEP the divisions as is, but change the matrix to make NON-CONFERENCE play a lot smarter and get the regular season you want. (Playoffs are gonna take a whole other post).
 
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Lady Stanley

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No one is saying the Canadian division was fun and great TV. It's just simple Kantian theory: Greater good for the Greater Number. BEFORE talking exact dollar values, you have something BETTER for 7 or 8, and categorically WORSE for 15 to 17 teams.



I don't see it, but what's your 6 and 4, and schedule matrix for this whole concept?
Seattle plays SanJose, LA, Anaheim 6 times each for a total of 18 times. That's a marketable pacific time zone rivalry. Seattle would play Vegas 4 times, Colorado 4 times, Minnesota and Dallas 4 times. 8 games against 2 central timezones sounds like a lot, until you crunch the numbers. There's 6 CTZ teams. Currently they play them 18 times in my alignment they'd play the central timezone 16 times.

Yes Dallas and Minnesota get a bit screwed. But they are kept together with a key rival.

The number of games in the pacific timezone would go from about 21.86 currently, to 24.

They'd go from have 9.86 games in the mtn timezone to 10. They'd go from having 18.36 against the central now, to having 14.


That's 4.36 central timezone games being lost, however if they let Detroit join the conference they're still losing 3.86 central timezone games.

Again Minnesota-Dallas the biggest losers in all of this.

The long term gain is better playoff hockey for ESPN so "they can grow the game". Every year 8 western American teams face in the playoffs. No Calcouvers, of vanmontons, or Edinnipegs.

Market non hockey fans know and care about. I'd argue the 4 Canadian teams in the west are probably a bigger problem for ESPN than it is for rogers-bell.

So it isn't just about growing Canada's market. It's a long term commitment to the USofA.



The metro can stay exactly as it is now. Only the Rangers would face the islanders blue jackets and devils 18 times in total and the other half for a total of 16 times.






Right, no one is disputing that that the TV deal gets bigger. It's a question of how much bigger is it getting DOING THIS rather than NOT DOING THIS.
I'd argue it's easily 30 million per team per decade, which would probably push the value of each team up by 100 million, if you have another way of doing so I'm all ears.

TV contracts have more affect on team values than anything else.

And again assuming ESPN doesn't prefer American on American early in the playoffs.
I don't see how you can increase the shares to 40 times the negatives when you have more teams in a worse situation than teams getting a better one.
The teams most arguably in a "worst situation" are the remaining Atlantic teams.


The five atlantic teams being paired up with 3 central teams is a problem. But you have to look at it from Detroits perspective.

For the 3 central teams coming east they're getting a better division. Better tvs times etc versus the pacific, less travel and more cultural overlap.



Boston-Chicago-Detroit could be an original six rivalrys all playing eachother 4 or 6 times each. You'd have a historic big markets markets battling it out.

They aren't just 06 by brand they represent 3 massive hockey markets Illinois plus Wisconsin, Michigan and New England.

To top it off you'd have Connor bedard in your arena either 4 or 6 times a year.

That's a recipe for good ticket sales and easy to market tv.

Tampa and Florida would be the ones most upset. But again they keep Detroit in their division, and they get Bedard in their division.

Plus you now have Nashville in the division which could be huge for a league wanting to market the team in Atlanta.





The idea is that every Canada vs Canada game is "double" the viewership compared to CAN vs US, because there's TWO cities (or fan bases) watching instead of one, so TV pays more for that. This is logically sound, no one disputes it.

The two problems are:
1) That principle is IN THEORY true if All Canadian team viewer bases are equal, but they're not. Winnipeg is a lot smaller than Toronto. Replacing Boston on Toronto's schedule with Winnipeg isn't doubling from 10 million Leaf fans to 20 million Leafs/Jets fans. It's probably more like 10 to 12.

The TV execs are going to do all that math and make their offers accordingly.

You've just glided by the bit where it ensures rogers has Canadian hockey to broadcast during the playoffs. It isn't about Winnipeg versus Toronto games, it's about the Leafs not making it to the playoffs because they're stuck beneath Boston and Tampa.



2) Division play is 32% of the schedule.
which means 68% are games aren't even up for discussion. We're talking about changing only 32% of games.



If you keep the schedule matrix, but change to an All Canadian division, you're going from 57 of 574 total team games being All Canada matchups (9.9%) to 104 of 656 (15.6%).


So you're really only "doubling" the viewership of 5.7% of games!



So how do you imagnie the Jersey Rangers games adding up?

LA Anageim? Vegas Dallas? Seattle Sanjose?

This isn't preferable for just Canada.



You mentioned two things: The 2021 All Canadian Division being AWESOME for viewership... Because it was 56 games with NO non-division play, you got 196 All-Canada games, almost twice what an All-Canadian division would be in the current matrix.
It was awesome in spite of an awful format. I don't think we're gonna agree with that.

If they had interdivisional play, passionate fans in the actual arena's, and a schedule that was normal, I think all 4 divisions would have been radically happier.

The actual schedule itself was beyond awful.

It wasn't just the repetitive matchups, it was that they were all in a row, follow all in a row with another team.

Now, the logical response is "but we're changing the Matrix!" And I say "YEAH, I've been on board with changing the Matrix from home/away vs everyone to something smarter for a decade now! You can KEEP the divisions as is, but change the matrix to make NON-CONFERENCE play a lot smarter and get the regular season you want. (Playoffs are gonna take a whole other post).
I'd argue yours is more extreme. I can't stand the every team playing eachother twice I agree with that premise. I support the claim that when you break down the majority of teams would notice little change or change for the better. Every division has a sweetener or two, that make what would otherwise be an issue workable.
 
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Lady Stanley

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Nothing is that simple... the owners agreed on re-alignment in 2012 and the players union rejected it. They had to re-do it. Beside, you will also have to convince the most powerful owner, Jeremy Jacobs of the Boston Bruins, Chairman of the Board of Governors and of the Executive Committee, who seem to really, really want to be in the same division as Montreal and Toronto.
A) I don't think the league has a choice but accept the Nordiques

B) You have 8 Canadian team owners who are also bringing in a national television deal on par with the other 24 owners combined.

C) Getting Bedard in the same division as Boston is a hell of a sweetener that no one could have expected.

D) The schedule isn't as bad as it seems. Using 4 and 6 games within your division makes the schedule way way better for the players. With matchups being even numbers, you could in theory visit every nhl city only once. This is something, probably the only thing the players liked about the covid divisions.



Oh, and also convincing him to have a team in Quebec. He didn't seem to think much of the Quebec market when Vegas was given a team.

To be honest, I'd bet my account that QC will be a thing by draft day.

As someone else explained, there's a clear cut business reason for not wanting an NHL team in an NBA arena.

You're splitting corporate sponsorship with the Aeroes. Removing concerts days/events books for 41 nights a year.

QC has an arena, they now officially have the ability to assemble an ownership group with the Sens rejects.

They also have record low American ratings for the finals. All of a sudden that Canadian national deal is way way more important than it was when this thread was started.

We also know PKP jump bought a CFL team in Montreal, there's even rumors from the CFL that they might have a team in QC.

TVAS has no reason to bid on the next Habs/national contract.

They in theory could own 2 CFL teams, very cheap and affordable CPL(soccer) CBEL(basketball) and CHL teams. That's 4 C's a french sports network could own and promote endlessly at very little cost.

I'm again betting my account that random series of events has largely put things in the favor of QC.
 

Golden_Jet

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Sep 21, 2005
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The Canadian tv deal is $440m/yr. American deal is $625m/yr. Canadian is obviously stronger per capita, but the American deal is still kicking a good chunk of change in. And it’s coming due only a few years after the Canadian deal. There’s a lot more to this than keeping Rogers/Bell happy.

But if this is something they actually value, they can drop it in as an option in the next deal. Then the NHL can debate it once actual numbers are known. As a preemptive move on the part of the NHL, guessing that it might please Rogers/Bell and bring a better tv deal, no way. At very best, you’ve destroyed your negotiating position by giving them what they want before you even sit down at the table.
Well that sure beats the American deal of free, and 200 million on the previous one, that just ended. Not to mention those Bally deals are all falling apart now.

To be honest, I'd bet my account that QC will be a thing by draft day.
Probably not your smartest bet to make.
Take care then, enjoy your summer.
 

Lady Stanley

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Well that sure beats the American deal of free, and 200 million on the previous one, that just ended. Not to mention those Bally deals are all falling apart now.


Probably not your smartest bet to make.
Take care then, enjoy your summer.
Lol I'm all in. If it doesn't happen I'll not be following the nhl until the playoffs.

I'm giving it 25% it happens in the next 24 hours, 50% it'll happen within 72 hours, any later and it probably won't happen at all.

it's very much xmas around here, just figuring out if it's a lump of cole.
 
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Shockmaster

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Sep 11, 2012
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Lol I'm all in. If it doesn't happen I'll not be following the nhl until the playoffs.

I'm giving it 25% it happens in the next 24 hours, 50% it'll happen within 72 hours, any later and it probably won't happen at all.

it's very much xmas around here, just figuring out if it's a lump of cole.
1687982449162.png
 

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