Post-Game Talk: PS #5 - 09/26/18 | islanders @ RANGERS | 7:00 - MSG

[TGWL]

you shouldn't get beat five hole from the blueline no matter who is shooting. that's just bad

You think the team is good enough to finish outside of the top 5, or 10, but are held back by Lundqvist? The one bomb he was screened and didn't even see. The second was a one-timer, which had a lot more velocity then somebody just talking a clapper from the point. Even if you say he could have played that one better, he still wasn't awful last night.

 

[will1066]

Hank is aging. To expect him to remain elite is folly. He will get beat on shots that he used to lock down.

I don't know what to make of the organization's feeling on Hayes. In my mind, he's a solid 2C and a legit 3C. I'm not sure what he needs to do to convince this organization on a long-term deal.

I'm going to disagree with the folks who think that continuously trading for futures is the way and only way.

 

[Blue Blooded]

All of the non-NJ games have been soul-crushing, and like I said, that team is just brutal.

Meh, the Rangers have been very good as long as one of Zibanejad, Zuccarello or DeAngelo are on the ice - that can be as much as 2/3 of the 5v5 TOI if you play your cards right. Another easy adjustment is to discount anything that happened with Howden on the ice, yikes!

 

[SnowblindNYR]

The current tone, again, is optimism about how abysmal we are.

Just not sure what I'm supposed to do with that. I don't get it. I never got it. You'll have to excuse me.

Yeah, let's all be miserable. I don't see any optimism just don't see people ruining the board by bitching about a tough situation. You just seem miserable that other people aren't miserable.

 

[Kupo]

I don't see what's great about the long-term direction.

We had a 12 year stretch of competing. The Renney/Jagr era. Then the Torts/Drury/Gaborik era. And then the AV/Stepan/Nash era.

All three of those cores failed. Sather was hellbent on winning and as a result, ****ed our pipeline by trading pick after pick.

We’re less than a year into our rebuild and you’re whining about preaseason games. Have some patience dude.

It’s ****ing refreshing seeing these youngsters in action. I’ve been a fan for long enough to sit back and watch the “suck” for a couple of years, because I’m confident in the process.

Whether you agree with it or not, it was time for a rebuild. You can either complain endlessly after we lose, or accept the fact that we are and focus your attention on the development of our prospects.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

Also I would LOVE to know who here used to go crazy with frustration that the team would sign high priced FA just so it could 'forever be middle of the road/mediocre'.

God, how many times did countless numbers of people express frustration over this? We'll never build a cup contender, we'll never be elite. We're too far back in the draft to ever get elite talent, management doesn't have the balls to just rebuild for a few years.

They DID become cup contenders and DID become elite because the team's construction at the time allowed for us to make a few signings and trades to get us there.

With the current roster construction (and last year's), it made a lot of sense to start piling up these prospects, target a select few prospects from other teams, open up the cap and get a good pick for a draft or two. In other words: they are now tanking/rebuilding.

I hope that the same people who criticized trying desperately to remain mediocre are not ALSO now moaning the current path. If you want to rebuild, this is how you do it. The biggest key is whether they have correctly ID'd prospects who will grow into all the roles that need to be filled. If we blew it with our picks then it is what it is, we'll suck longer. The next key is what can we do in FA the next two off seasons.

Why two? I think it is very fair to expect this season and next to be bad as the prospects develop further. I think it's reasonable for a team to be bad for 3 years in order to rebuild (counting last year). 2020-2021, imo, we can reasonably expect playoff contention

So are we not allowed any legitimate reasons to complain for two whole years? Of course there will be reasons. But if you're complaining about silly things then people will tire of it quick.

How do you know what;'s worth complaining about?

Well speaking of consistency before, that's the big thing. You want to see players learning to be consistent in their performances as the year goes. If they are making the same mistake fewer times as the season goes then this is great. If going into next season we see barely any improvement or mistake fixing from anyone then we've got a massive problem.

Effort. Despite losing, if the team has pride and fight and is consistently playing hard despite the score, despite the WL, then this is a great thing. Once in awhile a game may be a total clunker. If this is the exception and not the rule then it is a great sign for the development of this team. If we see clunkers with lolligagging, directionless, low effort players every game we have a problem.

Strategy. Give time for players to gel. Don't use the same exact PP setup every single game, especially when it isn't working, don't play a complete scrub over much more talented youth if the youth is performing better. Put young guys into varied situations even if they aren't suited for it. Example: Don't always give Buch sheltered O ice time. Force his ass to play in all areas of the ice, be a coach and get him to improve as the year goes on.

There's a ton to be frustrated about as the year goes on, it's not about wetting yourself for everything the team does. Let's see how it plays out and let's try to be fair about what we criticize.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

We had a 12 year stretch of competing. The Renney/Jagr era. Then the Torts/Drury/Gaborik era. And then the AV/Stepan/Nash era.

All three of those cores failed. Sather was hellbent on winning and as a result, ****ed our pipeline by trading pick after pick.

We’re less than a year into our rebuild and you’re whining about preaseason games. Have some patience dude.

It’s ****ing refreshing seeing these youngsters in action. I’ve been a fan for long enough to sit back and watch the “suck” for a couple of years, because I’m confident in the process.

Whether you agree with it or not, it was time for a rebuild. You can either complain endlessly after we lose, or accept the fact that we are and focus your attention on the development of our prospects.

A realistic, fair goal is to compete for the cup. We did that for a long time, I will never agree that all those cores failed. Plus the trade away strategy only applies to the last era.

 

[Kovalev27]

its sad when a great player hits that proverbial wall and is no longer the player he once was. Hank has been on the decline for a few years now. but at this point he is not a top 10 or even top 20 goaltender any longer. the goals he gives up the technique he uses (no one else does anymore) just is no longer viable at this level. he's a small goalie that plays deep and relied on speed and reflexes that were elite some of the best ever. but small and fast don't age well with goaltenders. Big guys that rely on angles and blocking can play later but hanks style and size just makes it very difficult.

that pulock goal the second one was a joke. sorry but that's unacceptable. the OT goal his technique is horrible its dated. he still tries to make kick saves by completely opening up leaving himself vulnerable instead of staying square. no one else plays that way anymore and he doesn't have the speed to do it. the game has sped up considerably. I feel much more comfortable with with georgiev and his technique in there than hankright now. georgiev would not get beat five hole from the blueline just wouldn't happen. happens to hank all the time.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

I too agree with much of this, However I am not sure I think Lias is totally ready either. I think he is much closer than Chytil but I'd probably go safer there and just have him in the AHL too. I mean one or two bad games and he is going to be labeled not ready, and should he look like Chytil last night some folks are going to be screaming that the Rangers are ruining him and the rebuild is already a failure.

He probably isn't, I think his speed is a massive issue that absolutely must improve ASAP.

That said, we also do have to give time for them to make mistakes in game AND to see if they can get coached up and fix them. It's going to take a few games before I'm ready to say some of these guys aren't ready. Sure, some of them may be so over-matched that it's obvious. I'm not sure it's that way yet for Lias.

 

[MetalJaws]

Hank is aging. To expect him to remain elite is folly. He will get beat on shots that he used to lock down.

I don't know what to make of the organization's feeling on Hayes. In my mind, he's a solid 2C and a legit 3C. I'm not sure what he needs to do to convince this organization on a long-term deal.

I'm going to disagree with the folks who think that continuously trading for futures is the way and only way.

I feel Hayes maybe thinks he's more of a 2C than a 3C, prob why he signed a 1 year deal. Kinda like a prove it contract. I believe the organization wants to see if maybe one of Chytil or Andersson will be good on the wing before signing him to be the 3C. If we pay him 3C money he prob wont want to be here, we'll find that out soon enough. Which would be a bummer because I agree he's a top 5 3C if put in that spot.

I have never been a Hayes guy. To me, he holds onto the puck wayyyyyyy too long and misses a lot of opportunities with faster wingers because of it. A recent example is that preseason OT Letteri goal, watch that replay. My god he had him for a 3 count and letteri would have been 1 on 1 from the top of the circle in. I literally yell at the TV, MOVE THE f***ING PUCK when he's out there. Like....A lot. I'd also like to note I am not emotional and known to be very calm. Hayes infuriates me.

However, If he does sign on to be a 3C and our future down the middle is. Zib, Chytil/LA, Hayes, Howden. With LA or Chytil taking a W spot. I think it would be great for our organization moving forward. A competitive, solid 4C's that can all contribute and are on track to be threats in the league. I'd only move Hayes at the deadline if he wont resign or wont get us a top 10 pick. If he wants to be here, tell him his role is 3C and get him to resign at that amount roughly.

 

[Off Sides]

There should be some level of optimism, and this is coming from someone who is pessimistic and cynical in nature,

Last year

Chytil was the 2nd youngest player to play the NHL, the youngest played in one game.

Lias the 8th youngest.

They both look to have a NHL future ahead of them.

If we add a year to their age while still using last years players/ages, Chytil would have been like 10th, Lias about 28th youngest.

They were both drafted in 2017.

Add a year to that, and another, and I think we can kind of see where this could go. Rangers have a young team that has several good players on it, perhaps several that could play above the middle 6F range and none of them are on UFA level cap hits yet. Perhaps they end up with even a higher end player or two out of that, maybe more.

In the mean time the contracts and cap hits to Lundqvist, Staal, Smith, the Giradi buyout all grow shorter.

Sprinkle in the play of Hajek, and some glimmers from ADA, Pionk, Gettinger, Crawley, Georgiev, etc

They had three 1sts last draft and some other picks, they will probably have some more than their own this next draft, maybe even again the one after that.

I guess I don't see what there is not be at least cautiously optimistic about.

They still have a lot of stuff they need to add, I don't think it will be a smooth even process, or that everything is all rainbows and unicorns, or that this is a 3 year plan by any means, but it sure seems like a foundation of sorts is being constructed.

I have concerns too, mostly that the Rangers may become impatient, or they do a poor job of drafting, or that these prospects are more in line with Dubinsky, Anisimov and whatnot compared to higher end players, or luck runs against them the entire time, or the current lack of potential top pair D prospects does not work itself out, but not so much that the process is wrong or doomed.

 

[Harbour Dog]

its sad when a great player hits that proverbial wall and is no longer the player he once was. Hank has been on the decline for a few years now. but at this point he is not a top 10 or even top 20 goaltender any longer. the goals he gives up the technique he uses (no one else does anymore) just is no longer viable at this level. he's a small goalie that plays deep and relied on speed and reflexes that were elite some of the best ever. but small and fast don't age well with goaltenders. Big guys that rely on angles and blocking can play later but hanks style and size just makes it very difficult.

that pulock goal the second one was a joke. sorry but that's unacceptable. the OT goal his technique is horrible its dated. he still tries to make kick saves by completely opening up leaving himself vulnerable instead of staying square. no one else plays that way anymore and he doesn't have the speed to do it. the game has sped up considerably. I feel much more comfortable with with georgiev and his technique in there than hankright now. georgiev would not get beat five hole from the blueline just wouldn't happen. happens to hank all the time.

Is it though? Because I'm picturing you in a party hat and chowing down on a big slab of cake as you type this.

Just last year, Hank was having a Vezina calibre season up until mid-to-late January, when carrying the corpses of an entire team finally became too much.

Is he going to drag us into the playoffs this year? Probably not.
Is he going to cause us to finish lower than we would with an average starter? Probably not.

He'll contribute positively to the team. Quite possibly not to the extent that he wishes he could because, yeah, even generational guys get old and decline.

But let's not bury him alive and piss on his grave. How about we enjoy watching one of the greatest Rangers of all time while we still have a chance?

 

[ThreeLeftSkates]

I don't think Anders Lee hits 20 goals this year

No, he will hit 30+.

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

Ok, so forget the ELC. Do you see this team having a whole roster by the time Hughes (hypothetically) is on his second contract? Frankly, I don't see a team without lots of holes for 6-7 years.

But you're right, there's too many moving parts to say that. Except, as you said, keeping franchise players. That's an important point. Our next franchise defenseman might not even be alive right now. That really, really bothers me. It's why I'm not really on board with this. It's why I'm not on board with trading the closest thing we had for a mediocre return. If we got a great return for McDonagh, again, different story. We didn't, and we didn't because for some reason, we were absolutely desperate to trade him and the league knew it. I still don't see where the gun was to our heads on that. The contract? I'd rather pay McDonagh what he's making than pay Skjei what he's making. What if this team is ready to roll by 2021 except Brady Skjei is still our 1D? Say hello to mediocre, which is the thing everyone is afraid of.

You're entitled to your opinion, but I haven't seen a neutral source that has us any higher than 9th. I haven't liked any of Gorton's drafts. This is the same front office that went from Cup contenders to rebuilding, but we've given them unwavering trust to commandeer the rebuild. Gorton has been a factor longer than most realize or want to admit. At best, he was Sather's AGM and hand-picked replacement. It's not the radical change it's made out to be.

Was this a close game, really? We might have one of the best lines in hockey. Good for the Rangers on that. However, this was men versus boys when that line wasn't on the ice. They left Kreider and Zibanejad alone because they just assumed Andersson and Chytil would be ready now. They're not. And yet they talk about their "glut of centers" and they're taking that same gun they put against their heads on McDonagh and putting it back to their heads on Hayes. This team can't plan short-term let alone long-term.

I’m going to start this by saying I don’t think I’m honestly all that far off from you on a lot of this stuff, but I’m generally an optimist by nature, so that may make me more lenient on some things.

In 6-7 years? Honestly the only hole based on the pieces within the organization right now (plus the hypothetical of adding Hughes) is the high end of the defense, but even without adding anything I think there’s at least 4 guys with varying probabilities that they’ll be better than Brady Skjei, which I know in your book (and kind of mine) a) isn’t/shouldn’t be that hard and b) isn’t saying all that much. But what I think the main thrust of all of this rebuilding has been to establish a new core group of players and to build up the organizational currency of picks, players, and prospects to put themselves in a good position for when an unforeseen player becomes available via trade or even free agency. But in a cap world, even Stanley Cup teams have holes in their rosters, for better or for worse (I lean pretty far towards worse) this league wants everything from the lottery to the playoffs to even free agency to essentially be coin flips.

The return for McDonagh sort of relies on how you feel about Hajek and Howden, but also relies on historic precedence for trading away ‘star’ players. There’s the outlier here and there of the younger player coming back being better than the one traded away, but by far these trades are very formulaic in their returns and I think the McDonagh trade followed that general formula and when I look at returns for a lot of those trades, I feel really confident in saying the Rangers got a lot better quality in the prospects they received than a lot of those other teams (Hajek is one of the guys I’m very confident will be better than Skjei).

As to the letter and basically announcing they were going to trade McDonagh, based on some reports, the decision to rebuild came from Dolan rather than Gorton and co, so the gun to his head really might’ve been losing his job. A similar thing, but on the other side of this coin, just happened with Vancouver this offseason where their ownership decided they wanted the team to make the playoffs this season, Linden felt that they weren’t ready for that yet and that it would be detrimental to their long term vision and eventually stepped down because of it, Benning took ownerships side and went out and signed a bunch of plugs to 4 year deals.

For the prospect pool rankings, it’s really hard to gauge, but here’s how I feel about these neutral sources: they’re just opinions of 1-5 people who might be more or less informed than HF posters (HF boards voted the Rangers prospect pool 5th or 6th like a month and a half ago. I keep thinking more and more lately that all of this rankings stuff just ends up being an appeal to authority, but an authority of your choosing. I personally feel like the Rangers have as deep of a prospect pool as any other teams, but that’s not to say it’s without its holes, which isn’t that surprising considering it’s only started being overhauled like 15 months ago.

As for the general front office, I’m hot and cold on them and don’t think they’re without their faults (the attempted retool thing, while I think the individual moves were fine, I think it was a profound misstep and led them to the rebuild). While I’m more on your side in that Gorton isn’t a radical departure and that there’s not really a clear line to be drawn because he was a big part of the old front office, he was also a part of the front office that turned those mediocre Rangers teams into legitimate Stanley Cup contenders and in doing so, also changed how the entire NHL plays hockey (even if it ended up giving the Penguins the blueprint for them to win back to back cups, whether they really deserved them or lucked into them) and I don’t think their detractors give them enough credit for that.

I only got to see the third period and overtime yesterday so I can’t really speak on whether it was a close game or not, but I will say I think Chytil and Andersson are ready to be in the NHL full time, but I also think they’re not quite ready to be completely consistent from game to game in the NHL, some of that is from their youth and some of that is from them just needing to learn and adjust to the NHL. My outlook on the short term future of this team is that they’re going to use this season as an extended training camp for next season, take their lumps and bumps along the way, cut what fat they can and are willing to cut, sign a Panarin or (hopefully Karlsson) this offseason (y not both?) and make a go at the playoffs next season.
*exhale*

 

[Ori]

Anyway we need a new game day topic - I hope Lias score 5 goals tonight!!

 

[Kupo]

A realistic, fair goal is to compete for the cup. We did that for a long time, I will never agree that all those cores failed. Plus the trade away strategy only applies to the last era.

The goal is to win the cup, not compete for it. As a die hard Bills fan I can tell you there’s no joy in losing 4 consecutive championships.

**** second place.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

The goal is to win the cup, not compete for it. As a die hard Bills fan I can tell you there’s no joy in losing 4 consecutive championships.

**** second place.

An unrealistic, unfair goal is to demand a cup every time you have a competitive team. If you can build a cup contender that sticks for a few years then you have more than succeeded at building a pro sports team. Now if it takes decades to get back to cup competitive and 54 years to win then that is a problem.

They failed to win a cup, they succeeded at being an elite, top notch pro franchise

 

[Kovalev27]

you think I'm happy that hank can no longer be counted on to make big saves for this team? that's just absurd. But I can recognize when a player is no longer what he once was. he was awful against Ottawa in the playoffs and was up and down that whole season. last year he had a great two month run but came right back down to earth. he was horrible to start and horrible to finish. I see no reason why at 37 with his size and technique why he would get better. he will only get worse and yes I hate seeing it. but its very much time for him to go he's hurting us more than marc staal is with that contract and when shesterkin gets here he'll be blocking one of him or georgiev that does not help us.

 

[Placid]

The rebuild or to retool conversation always reminds me of that Holy Grail Monty Python part where the guy built his castle on a swamp.

The King said it was daft to build a castle in a swamp, but i built it anyway, just to show him!
....it sank into the swamp.. SO, i built a second one! It sank into the swamp.... so i built a third one.. that burned down, fell over and then sank into the swamp.... but the fourth one stayed up!

God i love that movie

 

[Machinehead]

I’m going to start this by saying I don’t think I’m honestly all that far off from you on a lot of this stuff, but I’m generally an optimist by nature, so that may make me more lenient on some things.

In 6-7 years? Honestly the only hole based on the pieces within the organization right now (plus the hypothetical of adding Hughes) is the high end of the defense, but even without adding anything I think there’s at least 4 guys with varying probabilities that they’ll be better than Brady Skjei, which I know in your book (and kind of mine) a) isn’t/shouldn’t be that hard and b) isn’t saying all that much. But what I think the main thrust of all of this rebuilding has been to establish a new core group of players and to build up the organizational currency of picks, players, and prospects to put themselves in a good position for when an unforeseen player becomes available via trade or even free agency. But in a cap world, even Stanley Cup teams have holes in their rosters, for better or for worse (I lean pretty far towards worse) this league wants everything from the lottery to the playoffs to even free agency to essentially be coin flips.

The return for McDonagh sort of relies on how you feel about Hajek and Howden, but also relies on historic precedence for trading away ‘star’ players. There’s the outlier here and there of the younger player coming back being better than the one traded away, but by far these trades are very formulaic in their returns and I think the McDonagh trade followed that general formula and when I look at returns for a lot of those trades, I feel really confident in saying the Rangers got a lot better quality in the prospects they received than a lot of those other teams (Hajek is one of the guys I’m very confident will be better than Skjei).

As to the letter and basically announcing they were going to trade McDonagh, based on some reports, the decision to rebuild came from Dolan rather than Gorton and co, so the gun to his head really might’ve been losing his job. A similar thing, but on the other side of this coin, just happened with Vancouver this offseason where their ownership decided they wanted the team to make the playoffs this season, Linden felt that they weren’t ready for that yet and that it would be detrimental to their long term vision and eventually stepped down because of it, Benning took ownerships side and went out and signed a bunch of plugs to 4 year deals.

For the prospect pool rankings, it’s really hard to gauge, but here’s how I feel about these neutral sources: they’re just opinions of 1-5 people who might be more or less informed than HF posters (HF boards voted the Rangers prospect pool 5th or 6th like a month and a half ago. I keep thinking more and more lately that all of this rankings stuff just ends up being an appeal to authority, but an authority of your choosing. I personally feel like the Rangers have as deep of a prospect pool as any other teams, but that’s not to say it’s without its holes, which isn’t that surprising considering it’s only started being overhauled like 15 months ago.

As for the general front office, I’m hot and cold on them and don’t think they’re without their faults (the attempted retool thing, while I think the individual moves were fine, I think it was a profound misstep and led them to the rebuild). While I’m more on your side in that Gorton isn’t a radical departure and that there’s not really a clear line to be drawn because he was a big part of the old front office, he was also a part of the front office that turned those mediocre Rangers teams into legitimate Stanley Cup contenders and in doing so, also changed how the entire NHL plays hockey (even if it ended up giving the Penguins the blueprint for them to win back to back cups, whether they really deserved them or lucked into them) and I don’t think their detractors give them enough credit for that.

I only got to see the third period and overtime yesterday so I can’t really speak on whether it was a close game or not, but I will say I think Chytil and Andersson are ready to be in the NHL full time, but I also think they’re not quite ready to be completely consistent from game to game in the NHL, some of that is from their youth and some of that is from them just needing to learn and adjust to the NHL. My outlook on the short term future of this team is that they’re going to use this season as an extended training camp for next season, take their lumps and bumps along the way, cut what fat they can and are willing to cut, sign a Panarin or (hopefully Karlsson) this offseason (y not both?) and make a go at the playoffs next season.
*exhale*

This is all very fair. I do hope we'll be active in what should be a loaded free agent market, and not use the rebuild as an excuse to sit on our hands.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

At this moment, as long as they have the cap space, I'd be shocked if they don't work overtime to sign Panarin

He is signaling he wants to be here, all they need is the money

 

[Off Sides]

I think they will offer some UFAs some contracts next off-season, whether or not those contract offers match up to what the rest of the league may offer I think is more in question.

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

This is all very fair. I do hope we'll be active in what should be a loaded free agent market, and not use the rebuild as an excuse to sit on our hands.

In terms of what type of rebuild this is, it feels more like a Toronto plan rather than a Sabres plan where instead of trading literately everyone away, they trade some bigger pieces with bigger cap hits to start freeing up their books, then start swinging pretty big with their draft picks and then getting active in free agency because the Rangers and Toronto are both prime time destinations and it would be really foolish to not use that to their advantage

 

[Kovalev27]

sign panarin and karlsson and draft a top 5 pick and off you go. you're back in the game for the next 5 to 7 years.

kreider Zibanejad Buchnevich
Panarain Chytil Kravstov
Andersson Hayes Fast
Fontaine Howden Lettieri (yuck)

Skjei Karlsson
Hajek Shattenkirk
Smith DeAngelo/Pionk

Shesterkin
Hank/Georgiev

that's a competing team next season if you make the moves and blow out a few guys (I like spooner but rather keep hayes and move andersson to wing) and this isn't even counting the top pick you get in the bottom 5 who will come in and help at some point.

 

[Off Sides]

I see it as more of a Winnipeg rebuild plan. Where it is going to take an accumulation of picks over several years, and very likely take some of those picks to turn out better than their draft slot would have indicated for it to eventually culminate into an up and coming team that has enough talent to compete with those who had some of the really early picks. Or they will win / move up to very early in a draft lottery or two.