Prospect Info: Prospect Discussion 20/21 "It Could Have Been Lundell"

[The Zetterberg Era]

Yeah some of the top AHL vets make a lot but the ELC guys make more staying in Europe. The difference in salary might not be crazy but its there and then you dont have to take a bus on 10 hour road trips for games either.

Grand Rapids is likely one of the best destinations to play in the AHL but it still wouldnt compare to the top teams in Sweden. Sweden is tax free as well

I always thought the big benefit is a lot of European teams give you a car, apartment, etc.

Found this from an agency.

Projected Player Salaries 2020 – 2021 – 2112HockeyAgency.com

Cam Barker is playing in France... There is a name I haven't seen in a while.

Younger guys are usually in that lower range, perhaps Raymond is lucky and due to the hype has a better than normal salary, but that is basically his bonus tax free. Now he can double dip this summer by signing, but I believe he probably would have made more playing in the AHL and getting both his bonus and salary,I also thought top 5 guys had heftier bonuses on the sliding scale. Hard to say since they don't disclose salary information the same way. That is always been a problem with figuring out the KHL. I know you know some high level guys as well @newfy the briefcase cash thing is something I have heard exists from people that played over there.

It has been several years, I think I remember the operation budgets being around 5 million or just slightly above but that was like 2016 or 2017.

I think Berggren did a tour recently of his team owned apartments though, so for example it isn't like he is paying rent. I am a little surprised this isn't a thought process in the AHL, but it isn't a part of our model over here. I think it would help guys coming over from Europe or Junior to have the dorm esk living arrangements.

 

[Preposterone]

I think the reason some prospects dislike playing for the Griffins doesn’t have as much to do with development but rather quality of life.

Most could get paid more playing in Europe while living in bigger and more desirable cities. That’s not a knock on GR, I’ve heard good things, but you can’t tell me you’d rather have a comparable salary playing in a place like Prague or Stockholm. Plus, Scandinavian and Slavic women are gorgeous, and if you’re a 19 year old athlete brimming with testosterone that is a factor.

If you gave 19-22 year me the choice of making 120k in the SHL while living in a country with beautiful natural scenery, statistically happier people, and more culture or 50k in the AHL in a standard smallish American city, I know which one I’m taking 10/10 times

Im in the "just leave them in Europe til their ready" camp for financial and maturity reasons, but most euro players are not living in these big flashy cities. Just looking at our top guys:

Berggren - playing in Skalleftea, small city way up north on the Bothnian coast. Maybe broadly comparable to Traverse City in size/remoteness (it's way farther from a major city than TC looking at travel times)
Seider - Playing in Angelholm, a nice small city on the east coast of Sweden. Located a couple hours north of Copenhagen and Malmo. Holland, MI might be a good comparable here
Raymond - Playing in Gothenburg. A very nice mid sized city about halfway up the eastern coast of Sweden. Honestly, this is probably a good comparable to GR (both desirable cities with a metro population of about 1mil). Gothenburg has some incredible culture/history over GR, though.
Zadina - Played in Trinec, a small industrial city near Ostrava and the Polish border. I dont know a decent comparable for this one, but its no closer to Prague than it is to Budapest or Krakow

 

[19 for president]

AHL vs Euro League I think really depends on what needs to be developed. Playing time is also huge thing obviously. But if you need to develop skilp, iq, and 200ft awareness then I think the Euro leagues are great. If strength and conditioning are needed, board work or if the player projects more as a botton line guy, then I think the AHL is great.

I think Bergren has topped out in the SEL, his skill game is NHL ready. If anything he needs to up his strength and conditioning some and learn to play on the smaller ice, so I think the AHL would be the best option for him next year.

Raymond, Neids, Soder all could do with more skill training, but they need icetime. If they are going to be 4th line plugs or extra forwards, I think GR would be a better option.

Veleno is another guy I would not be opposed to sending back to the SEL. I think the offensive confidence boost is going to do wonders for his development.

 

[Henkka]

Im in the "just leave them in Europe til their ready" camp for financial and maturity reasons, but most euro players are not living in these big flashy cities. Just looking at our top guys:

Berggren - playing in Skalleftea, small city way up north on the Bothnian coast. Maybe broadly comparable to Traverse City in size/remoteness (it's way farther from a major city than TC looking at travel times)
Seider - Playing in Angelholm, a nice small city on the east coast of Sweden. Located a couple hours north of Copenhagen and Malmo. Holland, MI might be a good comparable here
Raymond - Playing in Gothenburg. A very nice mid sized city about halfway up the eastern coast of Sweden. Honestly, this is probably a good comparable to GR (both desirable cities with a metro population of about 1mil). Gothenburg has some incredible culture/history over GR, though.
Zadina - Played in Trinec, a small industrial city near Ostrava and the Polish border. I dont know a decent comparable for this one, but its no closer to Prague than it is to Budapest or Krakow

This is a good take about those locations.

I don't like AHL in general because of the travel distances. Those are insane trips to travel with bus. At Europe, those distances are much shorter and players will get better sleep and rest, which is big part of good development. AHL can never beat this thing on developmental side.

Grand Rapids
to

Chicago Wolves 289 km (HV-71 Jönköping 223 km)
Rockford Icehogs 428 km (Ängelholm to Örebro 433 km)
Cleveland Monsters 484 km (Ängelholm to Södertälje 511 km)
Iowa Wild (Des Moines) 798 km (Ängelholm to Brynäs Gävle 721 km)
Texas Stars (Cedar Park) 2093 km (Rögle BK, Ängelholm to Rome, Italy is 2027 km)
San Antonio Rampage 2228 km (Ängelholm to Moscow 2196 km)
Manitoba Moose (Winnipeg) 2699 km (Ängelholm to Madrid, Spain 2607km)

These are Griffins regular Central division opponents, and some comparable distances from Ängelholm Sweden, where Seider's Rögle BK will play.

After these Divisional rivals, AHL has other 3 divisions even further away...

 

[Henkka]

Finland, Tampere as an example:

Tappara Tampere to Ilves Tampere - 0 km
Tampere to Hämeenlinna (HPK) - 79 km (45min drive)
Tampere to Pori (Ässät) - 110 km
Tampere to Lahti (Pelicans) - 132 km
Tampere to Rauma (Lukko) - 142 km
Tampere to Jyväskylä (JYP) - 150 km (2h drive or less)
----------------------- so 6 teams under 100 miles distance
Tampere to Turku (TPS) - 163 km
Tampere to Helsinki (HIFK) - 179 km
Tampere to Kouvola (KooKoo) - 192 km
Tampere to Vaasa (Sport) - 240 km
Tampere to Mikkeli (Jukurit) - 260km
Tampere to Lappeenranta (SaiPa) - 277 km
Grand Rapids to Chicago Wolves - 289 km
Tampere to Kuopio (KalPa) - 297 km
------------------------ 13 teams under 200 miles distance
Tampere to Oulu (Kärpät) - 490 km (kind of the 3rd shortest Grand Rapids Cleveland trip)

For Tampere teams, first 12 "rivals" are nearer than nearest Chicago Wolves for Griffins.

Only two teams, KalPa and Kärpät are further than that 289 km distance from Grand Rapids to Chicago.

 

[Henkka]

If Tampere would be "Grand Rapids" at "Michican Hockey League", then it's easy to understand the distances.

Grand Rapids to Muskegon (66 km)
Grand Rapids to Kalamazoo (81 km), like Hämeenlinna
Grand Rapids to Battle Creek (104 km)
Grand Rapids to Lansing (110 km), like Pori
Grand Rapids to Jackson (170 km) like Turku
Grand Rapids to Flint (183 km), like Helsinki
Grand Rapids to Ann Arbor (212 km)
Grand Rapids to Saginaw (214 km)
Grand Rapids to Traverse City (228 km), like Vaasa
Grand Rapids to Detroit (253 km), like Mikkeli
Grand Rapids to Sarnia (293 km)
Grand Rapids to Toledo (300 km), like Kuopio
Grand Rapids to Sault Ste. Marie (471 km), like Oulu

This would be the Michigan league with Finnish league travel comparables.

Send a prospect there and he is not killed by insane travelling in AHL.

 

[Preposterone]

Finland, Tampere as an example:

Tappara Tampere to Ilves Tampere - 0 km
Tampere to Hämeenlinna (HPK) - 79 km (45min drive)
Tampere to Pori (Ässät) - 110 km
Tampere to Lahti (Pelicans) - 132 km
Tampere to Rauma (Lukko) - 142 km
Tampere to Jyväskylä (JYP) - 150 km (2h drive or less)
----------------------- so 6 teams under 100 miles distance
Tampere to Turku (TPS) - 163 km
Tampere to Helsinki (HIFK) - 179 km
Tampere to Kouvola (KooKoo) - 192 km
Tampere to Vaasa (Sport) - 240 km
Tampere to Mikkeli (Jukurit) - 260km
Tampere to Lappeenranta (SaiPa) - 277 km
Grand Rapids to Chicago Wolves - 289 km
Tampere to Kuopio (KalPa) - 297 km
------------------------ 13 teams under 200 miles distance
Tampere to Oulu (Kärpät) - 490 km (kind of the 3rd shortest Grand Rapids Cleveland trip)

For Tampere teams, first 12 "rivals" are nearer than nearest Chicago Wolves for Griffins.

Only two teams, KalPa and Kärpät are further than that 289 km distance from Grand Rapids to Chicago.

This is another big reason Im on the "stay in europe" train. The Marlies bus randomly stopped at an Indian restaurant I was eating at here in GR EDIT: fall 2019 (not last fall) to pick up lunch after coming from a game in Rockford, and one of their highly touted young swedish D prospects was pretty loudly bitching about the AHL bus travel. I can only imagine how these regular 5-20 hour bus trips have to mess up your routine.

 

[Hen Kolland]

Finland, Tampere as an example:

Tappara Tampere to Ilves Tampere - 0 km
Tampere to Hämeenlinna (HPK) - 79 km (45min drive)
Tampere to Pori (Ässät) - 110 km
Tampere to Lahti (Pelicans) - 132 km
Tampere to Rauma (Lukko) - 142 km
Tampere to Jyväskylä (JYP) - 150 km (2h drive or less)
----------------------- so 6 teams under 100 miles distance
Tampere to Turku (TPS) - 163 km
Tampere to Helsinki (HIFK) - 179 km
Tampere to Kouvola (KooKoo) - 192 km
Tampere to Vaasa (Sport) - 240 km
Tampere to Mikkeli (Jukurit) - 260km
Tampere to Lappeenranta (SaiPa) - 277 km
Grand Rapids to Chicago Wolves - 289 km
Tampere to Kuopio (KalPa) - 297 km
------------------------ 13 teams under 200 miles distance
Tampere to Oulu (Kärpät) - 490 km (kind of the 3rd shortest Grand Rapids Cleveland trip)

For Tampere teams, first 12 "rivals" are nearer than nearest Chicago Wolves for Griffins.

Only two teams, KalPa and Kärpät are further than that 289 km distance from Grand Rapids to Chicago.

You're comparing countries that vary in size by what 320 million people? In terms of geographical size, the US has land area of over 9 million sq.km compared to Finland's 0.3 million sq.km. Of course distances are further spread out in North America. There's more in common between Michigan and Finland/Sweden than there is between the United States and Finland/Sweden.

Players in the AHL aren't entirely sleep deprived to the point where they are physically unable to perform or develop. I think this is a European bias you are displaying for why Liiga would be considered a favorable development spot for players. It ignores the value of proximity/convenience of being so close to the NHL franchise, the coaches, trainers, management, while sacrificing minimal trade off in competitive talent (Sweden), and in most cases, increasing that competitive talent.

There's obviously value to both, including the comfort zones of players. There was obviously a real learning curve for Veleno headed over to Malmo to play professional hockey in Europe for the first time. He would have been better off in Grand Rapids because it's what he was familiar with. That being said, GR wasn't playing so a big advantage for Sweden. For someone like Niederbach or Soderblom or Wallinder or Viro, staying over in Europe makes more sense than rushing someone over to GR if they aren't on the verge of being NHL ready (meaning multiple years of development). Why take them out of their comfort zone and force them into a new culture when we aren't even confident they will be regular NHLers? Berggren, Raymond, Johansson are probably at most one more year away, and that's why I would want them to come over, even it means playing in the "slums" of the AHL for a bit. Because with good offseasons and good play, I could see all of them having a glimpse of the NHL in 2021-22.

 

[GoBoltz56]

I always thought the big benefit is a lot of European teams give you a car, apartment, etc.

I know a couple guys who played in the British league which is a pretty low level league, and they were given cars and apartments and I think a per-diem for food completely separate from their salary.

 

[Henkka]

You're comparing countries that vary in size by what 320 million people? In terms of geographical size, the US has land area of over 9 million sq.km compared to Finland's 0.3 million sq.km. Of course distances are further spread out in North America. There's more in common between Michigan and Finland/Sweden than there is between the United States and Finland/Sweden.

Yes, I am comparing small country benefits to big country disadvantages. This will never change (if they don't start using aeroplanes) and is the reason why I don't think American Hockey League is very good developing platform. The League has spread even more on latest seasons, and especially against our farm system.

Grown Pacific Division further than any teams in the past and we have the longest trips inside our division. It's just a killer.

Think good farm systems are located nowadays only in the New England / New York area, where the whole historic base of the league is. They have somewhat short travel distances inside Division. Think Albany would be the best location, at middle-point of most teams.

 

[Pavels Dog]

You're comparing countries that vary in size by what 320 million people? In terms of geographical size, the US has land area of over 9 million sq.km compared to Finland's 0.3 million sq.km. Of course distances are further spread out in North America. There's more in common between Michigan and Finland/Sweden than there is between the United States and Finland/Sweden.

Players in the AHL aren't entirely sleep deprived to the point where they are physically unable to perform or develop. I think this is a European bias you are displaying for why Liiga would be considered a favorable development spot for players. It ignores the value of proximity/convenience of being so close to the NHL franchise, the coaches, trainers, management, while sacrificing minimal trade off in competitive talent (Sweden), and in most cases, increasing that competitive talent.

There's obviously value to both, including the comfort zones of players. There was obviously a real learning curve for Veleno headed over to Malmo to play professional hockey in Europe for the first time. He would have been better off in Grand Rapids because it's what he was familiar with. That being said, GR wasn't playing so a big advantage for Sweden. For someone like Niederbach or Soderblom or Wallinder or Viro, staying over in Europe makes more sense than rushing someone over to GR if they aren't on the verge of being NHL ready (meaning multiple years of development). Why take them out of their comfort zone and force them into a new culture when we aren't even confident they will be regular NHLers? Berggren, Raymond, Johansson are probably at most one more year away, and that's why I would want them to come over, even it means playing in the "slums" of the AHL for a bit. Because with good offseasons and good play, I could see all of them having a glimpse of the NHL in 2021-22.

I think there are obvious reasons why so many (especially european) players get antsy if they're in AHL for too long.
An interview with Stefan Liv (RIP) has always stuck with me, this was when he was playing for Grand Rapids and he was just miserable due to the travel. He went quickly back to Sweden.
Some players obviously tolerate it better, but I think the experience in SHL is much more comfortable than it is in AHL. There are some benefits to the AHL, but for the most part I'm of the mind that swedish prospects should be left in SHL until they are basically NHL ready.

 

[Henkka]

I think there are obvious reasons why so many (especially european) players get antsy if they're in AHL for too long.
An interview with Stefan Liv (RIP) has always stuck with me, this was when he was playing for Grand Rapids and he was just miserable due to the travel. He went quickly back to Sweden.
Some players obviously tolerate it better, but I think the experience in SHL is much more comfortable than it is in AHL. There are some benefits to the AHL, but for the most part I'm of the mind that swedish prospects should be left in SHL until they are basically NHL ready.

We have now also Kotkansalo in Finland and they did sent Brattström to Finland.

Viro is in Finland, Kivenmäki too.

Maybe this is coming a thing, after they see the results (better development).

Finland also has those narrower 28m rinks, not NHL-sized (26m) but hybrids, which Sweden was finally considering too.

 

[Winger98]

We have now also Kotkansalo in Finland and they did sent Brattström to Finland.

Viro is in Finland, Kivenmäki too.

Maybe this is coming a thing, after they see the results (better development).

Finland also has those narrower 28m rinks, not NHL-sized (26m) but hybrids, which Sweden was finally considering too.

The NHL should switch to the hybrid rinks, too. It'd make for better hockey and better adjust the game for the increase in player size. Better than making nets bigger, restricting goalie movement, etc.