Prospect Info: Prospect #10 Runoff!

[jaster]

"bottom pairing guys aren't as easy to find if they are 2nd pairing guys"

Well. Yes.

More succinctly, 3rd-pairing defensemen are indeed dime a dozen, but the best 3rd-pairing defensemen are not.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

As between those two, Viro. We don't need to smack a sell-by date on Wallinder, but this is a big year for him and he needs to start taking more steps.

 

[newfy]

he does have the tools to realistically be a 2nd pairing guy if he does hit though

it's all about how you value things, personally I view 4th line/3rd pairing guys as essentially worthless outcomes with how cheap and plentiful they are

like if I made a value scale where a 1st pairing would be worth 100 points then a 2nd pairing guy would be like maybe 30 and a 3rd pairing guy would be like.....1

so likelihood of hitting the NHL in and of itself really doesn't do much for me at all until you get up to a Seider kinda level where the floor is probably a 2nd pairing guy

Not sure why Sebrango is only a potential third pairing guy. Theres a lot of ways to skin a cat and Sebrango does what he does very well. You dont haveto rush the puck end to end to be a top 4 dman.

I'm not saying Sebrango is going to be a for sure top 4 guy or anything like that, but style of play doesnt limit what he can be. If he becomes the next Marc Methot or Brad Stuart detroit is laughing. And its not like hes being compared to Sedier or Edvinsson at this point either

 

[Frk It]

I don’t see any kind of a meaningful difference in the ceiling of Viro, Sebrango, or McIsaac.

I think Buium, Tuomisto, and Wallinder all have a clearly higher ceiling or upside. And in that 2nd group I’d go with the guys that have not disappointed yet (Buium/Tuomisto) before I’d go with anyone in that first group.

 

[MBH]

I don’t see any kind of a meaningful difference in the ceiling of Viro, Sebrango, or McIsaac.

I think Buium, Tuomisto, and Wallinder all have a clearly higher ceiling or upside. And in that 2nd group I’d go with the guys that have not disappointed yet (Buium/Tuomisto) before I’d go with anyone in that first group.

Tuomisto hasn't disappointed, but he's also not done anything either, yet.
In his D+2 year, he was tied in points with a D+1 4th round defenseman.
Not exactly stellar for a guy supposed to be an offensive force.

And while Buium has upside, he was also taken a lot higher than I expected he'd go.
I can clearly see cases for Sebrano, Viro or McIsaac over those guys. Not saying I'd put them all abve the guys you mentioned, but I don't think it's unreasonable.

 

[Gniwder]

Tuomisto hasn't disappointed, but he's also not done anything either, yet.
In his D+2 year, he was tied in points with a D+1 4th round defenseman.
Not exactly stellar for a guy supposed to be an offensive force.

And while Buium has upside, he was also taken a lot higher than I expected he'd go.
I can clearly see cases for Sebrano, Viro or McIsaac over those guys. Not saying I'd put them all abve the guys you mentioned, but I don't think it's unreasonable.

The other factor is that offensive upside doesn't mean crap if the prospect can't defend. We've already seen that with Cholo and Djoos.

 

[MBH]

The other factor is that offensive upside doesn't mean crap if the prospect can't defend. We've already seen that with Cholo and Djoos.

If Cholo had showed offensive upside, he'd still be here.

 

[Gniwder]

If Cholo had showed offensive upside, he'd still be here.

I think both of those players were projected to have as much offensive upside as Wallinder at the same age if not more. It's only in the NHL where both have issues. Cholo has decent AHL stats, Djoos had 58 point in 66 games in 16/17 with the Bears. That's the reason why he was on the Cup team the following season.

Edit: Not to mention Bowey who was over a point per game in juniors and had really good AHL stats. Offensive upside means nothing without defensive skills.

 

[MBH]

I think both of those players were projected to have as much offensive upside as Wallinder at the same age if not more. It's only in the NHL where both have issues. Cholo has decent AHL stats, Djoos had 58 point in 66 games in 16/17 with the Bears. That's the reason why he was on the Cup team the following season.

Edit: Not to mention Bowey who was over a point per game in juniors and had really good AHL stats. Offensive upside means nothing without defensive skills.

Cholo's defensive woes are so overplayed.
Bowey was a disaster.
But really, Cholo wasn't any worse than Hronek in his own zone. he was just too soft and not aggressive at all.
Hronek actually competes hard and has some grit. But he's almost as gaffeprone as Bowey.

 

[Gniwder]

Cholo's defensive woes are so overplayed.
Bowey was a disaster.
But really, Cholo wasn't any worse than Hronek in his own zone. he was just too soft and not aggressive at all.
Hronek actually competes hard and has some grit. But he's almost as gaffeprone as Bowey.

Cholo was way worse, it's not even close. He couldn't defend anyone.

I don't think Hronek is gaffe prone, I think he's got poor positioning because he never trusts his partner. Whether or not he can re-adjust his positioning when he gets a real partner will determine his career trajectory.

I also noticed he wasn't as physical last season and his slapper disappeared. I suspect he was dinged up with a possible shoulder injury. Doesn't excuse his poor positioning though. He's gotta quit playing every situation as a 2 on 1, especially when his partner is actually covering a guy.

 

[Henkka]

Cholowski was as bad as Quinn Hughes at own zone. +Didn't have the offense.

 

[MBH]

Cholo was way worse, it's not even close. He couldn't defend anyone.

I don't think Hronek is gaffe prone, I think he's got poor positioning because he never trusts his partner. Whether or not he can re-adjust his positioning when he gets a real partner will determine his career trajectory.

I also noticed he wasn't as physical last season and his slapper disappeared. I suspect he was dinged up with a possible shoulder injury. Doesn't excuse his poor positioning though. He's gotta quit playing every situation as a 2 on 1, especially when his partner is actually covering a guy.

Hronek absolutely is gaffe-prone.
And stop blaming all the other players for the problems of these kids.

Cholo's defense was weak. He was just too timid, overall.
Everything about his game was timid.
He had the skating and skills to be something, but didn't assert himself on the ice.

CHolo's five on five offense was non-existent for three years now.
.47 points/60
.11 points/60 (crazy)
.84 points/60 (only 16 games)

His GFvsGA/60
1.88 v 2.97
1.39 v 3.0
1.67 v 1.67

Hronek's numbers, by comparison
1.12 points/60
.71 points/60
.43 points/.60

2.0 v 2.71
1.9 vs 3.6
1.3 vs 2.41

 

[Hen Kolland]

i see wallinder and my thought is the guy needs huge amounts of off ice training to improve coordination / athleticism

His athleticism is the most appealing thing about him as a player though...

 

[Hen Kolland]

I like that the two most self-righteous posters have found themselves in a disagreement about whether or not a player who is no longer part of the organization should be considered a disaster in his own end, or only just run of the mill bad.

 

[lilidk]

I don’t see any kind of a meaningful difference in the ceiling of Viro, Sebrango, or McIsaac.

I think Buium, Tuomisto, and Wallinder all have a clearly higher ceiling or upside. And in that 2nd group I’d go with the guys that have not disappointed yet (Buium/Tuomisto) before I’d go with anyone in that first group.

Those 3 definitely have higher upside , but they also highly likely are busts.

 

[Gniwder]

I like that the two most self-righteous posters have found themselves in a disagreement about whether or not a player who is no longer part of the organization should be considered a disaster in his own end, or only just run of the mill bad.

That's a very self righteous thing to say, lol.

 

[Gniwder]

Hronek absolutely is gaffe-prone.
And stop blaming all the other players for the problems of these kids.

Cholo's defense was weak. He was just too timid, overall.
Everything about his game was timid.
He had the skating and skills to be something, but didn't assert himself on the ice.

CHolo's five on five offense was non-existent for three years now.
.47 points/60
.11 points/60 (crazy)
.84 points/60 (only 16 games)

His GFvsGA/60
1.88 v 2.97
1.39 v 3.0
1.67 v 1.67

Hronek's numbers, by comparison
1.12 points/60
.71 points/60
.43 points/.60

2.0 v 2.71
1.9 vs 3.6
1.3 vs 2.41

I think we're arguing semantics, by "gaffe" I'm referring to the physical inability (due to coordination or strength) to cover a guy with the puck. Hronek's main problem is his positioning, and if you call that a gaffe then I'm not gonna argue with you. The stats won't tell you why or how the other team scored.

Cholo is gonna suck regardless of who his partner is because like you said, he's weak and can't defend. He's well on his way to the AHL, Seattle gave him a 2 way contract and they've got too many defensemen anyways. I'm hoping Hronek gets his act together with a better partner, but maybe it doesn't happen. We'll see.

I've got a pretty good track record of identifying garbage (Svech/Cholo/Djoos, etc), I don't think Hronek is garbage.