Post-Game Talk: Pricer 3:15 -- Habs 3-1 win over Wings!

[PaulD]

Quoting you before you quote yourself.

This post looks to me like a classic PaulD quotable.

So, I am preemptively quoting it before you quote it yourself.

 

[Redux91]

If it was a "hometown" thing then Domi should have had the star, no?

Domi is from montreal?

i want to assert i do also believe Domi deserved a star, not sure what Tatar did

But Bernier had a couple of big saves, played a decent game, i can SEE why his HOMETOWN would give him a star, yes?

 

[PaulD]

There are a bunch of stats out there that teams are highly secretive about. Every now and then you get an article where somebody busts these stats out and you see that in close we were one of the worst teams in the league at giving up chances in close but at the same time we were good at limiting overall shots.

I wish those kinds of stats were more readily available because it is hard to judge goalies. We basically have one stat that we go on: save percentage. That's it. And that number is not cumulative it's average based. So a goalie can play great hockey for two months and then have a terrible game and that stat takes a huge hit.

As an example, Price was .928 from the time Weber returned until the Ducks game. After that match he dropped to .922.... it's insane.

As I mentioned, in the earlier article I posted we were great at limiting shots but terrible at letting shots in close at least until December (don't know about since then) and Price was saving at 5 points above replacement. Where do these guys pull these kinds of stats from? It's times like these that I wish @Talks to Goalposts was still around.

Last night was a good example. I guess we only gave up 22 shots but there were tons of great saves that Price made. I don't know how you capture that statistically.

Some times you just go with your own eye test.Thats what make for great debates.

Like Gerry Cheevers once said "stats dont lie, but they dont always tell the whole truth either"

 

[PaulD]

He did that after his second or third season with the Habs. He was ONE full season away(1973-1974) from the club. Nowadays, fans would tell that he is a hot-headed, spoiled brat...

He finally agreed to a new contract with Pollock. When in left after the last SC, it was not about salary. He had enough and wanted to pursue other career goals.

He also knew it was the best time. He did not want to miss that window. One of the few who went out on top. Did not stay for money while skills and fitness eroded before finally hanging them up.

Ken also said he never regretted it. Bonus was not waking up aching and covered in bruises.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Dryden sat out with a year left on his contract. He wanted to renegotiate in the middle of his two year contract. It doesn't come across as petty from ownership at all.

I was a kid then and I was devastated that he missed a year. But this is not in ownership. Salaries were being inflated by the WHA and Dryden wanted a piece of the action.

Can't blame him. The owners were making money hand over fist while many hockey players had to get second jobs...

 

[Habs Icing]

Truth. Dryden played behind an all-star team, it would be the same thing as Price playing behind a team Canada roster today.

As I mentioned in another post that all-star team was dog do-do the year he sat out.

 

[Stoneburg]

Sitting out a full year would be idiotic nowadays. You’ll never make that money back
Ask Le’veon Bell. He look like the biggest idiot ever
Saying that I don’t blame Dryden. Owners were completely fleecing players back in the 70s
Habs were a a cash cow back then as well and couldn’t buck up 40 k?
That’s just cheap

I think you have to put 40k in context. It represents a 50% increase in salary. Fifty years ago 40k is not comparable to today's 40k. To add some context to that, my parents bought their house in DDO for 16k in 1968, and their house Ste. Basile for 12k in 1966. 40k was a lot back then.

 

[PaulD]

Sitting out a full year would be idiotic nowadays. You’ll never make that money back
Ask Le’veon Bell. He look like the biggest idiot ever
Saying that I don’t blame Dryden. Owners were completely fleecing players back in the 70s
Habs were a a cash cow back then as well and couldn’t buck up 40 k?
That’s just cheap

Dryden has written best sellers. Earned a law degree. Politics. President of the Maple leafs. Money was not his chief concern. Ever. But principle against rich owners and standing up to the bosses? Well aint a man among doesnt jump at opportunities like that.

 

[Stoneburg]

Can't blame him. The owners were making money hand over fist while many hockey players had to get second jobs...

Dryden still got paid something like 10 times the average salary back then. He was not poor by any standard.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Dryden still got paid something like 10 times the average salary back then. He was not poor by any standard.

Sure... but he was still getting ripped off. And he was smart enough to know he was getting ripped off.

 

[PaulD]

Dryden played on an all star team sure. He also beat a few while doing it. The Boston Bruins of 71 had just won a Cup. Rather Easily. They had Bobby Orr. Most would say the best player of all time, then and now. Plus they had all the leading scorers and two great goalies. In his rookie year with 6 NHL games under his belt Dryden beat them. Yes he had great players. But none of them were given the MVP of the play offs . He was. If it was them that carried him he would not have won the Coin Smythe hands down. One of the few years where there was no doubt about who would win it.
Now I like Carey but in his rookie play off he and his team could not get by the Philly Flyers. Who were no better than his team. Who did they have. Umberger and Hartnell? lol.

No Carey is a great goalie. But he is no Ken Dryden. Especially under play off pressure.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Dryden played on an all star team sure. He also beat a few while doing it. The Boston Bruins of 71 had just won a Cup. Rather Easily. They had Bobby Orr. Most would say the best player of all time, then and now. Plus they had all the leading scorers and two great goalies. In his rookie year with 6 NHL games under his belt Dryden beat them. Yes he had great players. But none of them were given the MVP of the play offs . He was. If it was them that carried him he would not have won the Coin Smythe hands down. One of the few years where there was no doubt about who would win it.
Now I like Carey but in his rookie play off he and his team could not get by the Philly Flyers. Who were no better than his team. Who did they have. Umberger and Hartnell? lol.

No Carey is a great goalie. But he is no Ken Dryden. Especially under play off pressure.

Price beat a Bruins team in 2014 that was expected to be a cup contender. Even in series where he's lost he's played well for the most part. He's actually been consistently good in the postseason.

But he's had David Desharnais...

I'm sorry but you can't ignore this. The guy never had a chance. Ken Dryden wouldn't have won with those teams, neither would Plante or Roy. Forget about it. And it's a f***ing crime that he got run in 2014 but that's a whole other story.

 

[Habs]

Took long enough for this hot take

It was f***ing epic though. How do you respond to that?

 

[PaulD]

Price beat a Bruins team in 2014 that was expected to be a cup contender. Even in series where he's lost he's played well for the most part. He's actually been consistently good in the postseason.

But he's had David Desharnais...

I'm sorry but you can't ignore this. The guy never had a chance. Ken Dryden wouldn't have won with those teams, neither would Plante or Roy. Forget about it. And it's a ****ing crime that he got run in 2014 but that's a whole other story.

Yes Price would have won with Dryden and Roys teams .

And Dryden and Roy would have lost with Careys teams.

But nobody in Montreal has ever delivered like Roy and Dryden did in their rookie play off performance. Price included.

But you dont have to convince me that Carey has played in the worst era of the Montreal Canadiens. The players Carey has had for team mates pale in comparison. Ken Dryden and Patrick Roy combined would not have won a damn thing if Max Domi and Brendan Gallagehr were their best forwards. Neither can Carey.
Or if Paceriotty and DD were on the first line.

Because Prices teams have been shit does not take anything away from the accolades, cups, hardware and legacy of the three big Canadiens goalies before him.

In 71 the habs had a great team with great players. Yes. And Ken Dryden was awarded the trophy as the best one of them all when it mattered most. Best player on a great team and MVP of the play offs. Playing against Bobby Orr. That aint luck of the draw.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Yes Price would have won with Dryden and Roys teams .

And Dryden and Roy would have lost with Careys teams.

But nobody in Montreal has ever delivered like Roy and Dryden did in their rookie play off performance. Price included.

But you dont have to convince me that Carey has played in the worst era of the Montreal Canadiens. The players Carey has had for team mates pale in comparison. Ken Dryden and Patrick Roy combined would not have won a damn thing if Max Domi and Brendan Gallagehr were their best forwards. Neither can Carey.
Or if Paceriotty and DD were on the first line.

Because Prices teams have been **** does not take anything away from the accolades, cups, hardware and legacy of the three big Canadiens goalies before him.

In 71 the habs had a great team with great players. Yes. And Ken Dryden was awarded the trophy as the best one of them all when it mattered most. Best player on a great team and MVP of the play offs. Playing against Bobby Orr. That aint luck of the draw.

Until Price wins a cup he will not be in their class. Unfair or not that's how it is. And that's the way it should be.

It just sucks that he's been behind the teams we've had. All we can do is have 'coulda been' conversations about this.

I just think people should take things into consideration when comparing these guys. We're comparing him to three of the best goalies the NHL has ever seen - that in itself is a compliment.

 

[Rapala]

Roster-wise, nobody comes close to Dryden either. Not wanting to remove anything away from Dryden, just saying that his win percentage was as much a function of him playing great, but also a function of him playing for the best roster in the history of the NHL.

Check us out the year he sat out I don't think we even made the playoffs. Comes back the following year to a cup win. Unfreakin' believable how underrated Dryden was because of the team in front of him but...

 

[Milhouse40]

Yes Price would have won with Dryden and Roys teams .

And Dryden and Roy would have lost with Careys teams.

But nobody in Montreal has ever delivered like Roy and Dryden did in their rookie play off performance. Price included.

But you dont have to convince me that Carey has played in the worst era of the Montreal Canadiens. The players Carey has had for team mates pale in comparison. Ken Dryden and Patrick Roy combined would not have won a damn thing if Max Domi and Brendan Gallagehr were their best forwards. Neither can Carey.
Or if Paceriotty and DD were on the first line.

Because Prices teams have been **** does not take anything away from the accolades, cups, hardware and legacy of the three big Canadiens goalies before him.

In 71 the habs had a great team with great players. Yes. And Ken Dryden was awarded the trophy as the best one of them all when it mattered most. Best player on a great team and MVP of the play offs. Playing against Bobby Orr. That aint luck of the draw.

MVP of the playoff is all on Dryden.
But the Cup isn't. The Cup isn't won by one player even the MVP.
The Cup isn't an individual award but when it comes to Montreal and goaltending, apparently it is.

Comparing Price to Dryden to Plante is unfair and that's for every one of them.

No matter how many Cups there is, the fact and the matter is that Price is one of the best if not the best goaltender of his generation....even NHL players agree with that. Just like Plante was seen as the best goaltender of his, same goes for Dryden. Price has won everything except the SC which is a team trophy.

In the end, there's no Dryden, Plante or Roy in this league anymore. Most goalies have their good and their bad season and it's highly influence by the quality of the team in front of them and injuries. That's cause by the parity and the salary cap.

 

[Runner77]

Dryden has written best sellers. Earned a law degree. Politics. President of the Maple leafs. Money was not his chief concern. Ever. But principle against rich owners and standing up to the bosses? Well aint a man among doesnt jump at opportunities like that.

I saw a piece once about Dryden's father, about how he came from humble beginnings. When he came to Canada, he literally took a train as far as it would go, got off and knocked on doors for a place to sleep and to work. I imagine he must have provided a better life for his son while he was growing up but don't have the details. I'd say the "ever" part only began for sure when he became an NHL player. He wasn't earning all that much as a goalie for the Nova Scotia Voyageurs.

 

[Aspirine]

[tweet]

Sure but it’s a game of inches and bounces. You can outshoot the opponent 5 to 1 and still lose 2-1. Possession matters on the long run but doesn’t mean you’re gonna win this very game. You gotta bury those chances. And for that you need the players that will.

 

[Talks to Goalposts]

There are a bunch of stats out there that teams are highly secretive about. Every now and then you get an article where somebody busts these stats out and you see that in close we were one of the worst teams in the league at giving up chances in close but at the same time we were good at limiting overall shots.

I wish those kinds of stats were more readily available because it is hard to judge goalies. We basically have one stat that we go on: save percentage. That's it. And that number is not cumulative it's average based. So a goalie can play great hockey for two months and then have a terrible game and that stat takes a huge hit.

As an example, Price was .928 from the time Weber returned until the Ducks game. After that match he dropped to .922.... it's insane.

As I mentioned, in the earlier article I posted we were great at limiting shots but terrible at letting shots in close at least until December (don't know about since then) and Price was saving at 5 points above replacement. Where do these guys pull these kinds of stats from? It's times like these that I wish @Talks to Goalposts was still around.

Last night was a good example. I guess we only gave up 22 shots but there were tons of great saves that Price made. I don't know how you capture that statistically.

I thought you missed me all the time bro.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I thought you missed me all the time bro.

It's about f***ing time you came back. Where the hell have you been?

 

[PaulD]

I saw a piece once about Dryden's father, about how he came from humble beginnings. When he came to Canada, he literally took a train as far as it would go, got off and knocked on doors for a place to sleep and to work. I imagine he must have provided a better life for his son while he was growing up but don't have the details. I'd say the "ever" part only began for sure when he became an NHL player. He wasn't earning all that much as a goalie for the Nova Scotia Voyageurs.

You would really enjoy his first book "The Game" Best hockey book written imo. Im not alone in saying that.

 

[PaulD]

MVP of the playoff is all on Dryden.
But the Cup isn't. The Cup isn't won by one player even the MVP.
The Cup isn't an individual award but when it comes to Montreal and goaltending, apparently it is.

Comparing Price to Dryden to Plante is unfair and that's for every one of them.

No matter how many Cups there is, the fact and the matter is that Price is one of the best if not the best goaltender of his generation....even NHL players agree with that. Just like Plante was seen as the best goaltender of his, same goes for Dryden. Price has won everything except the SC which is a team trophy.

In the end, there's no Dryden, Plante or Roy in this league anymore. Most goalies have their good and their bad season and it's highly influence by the quality of the team in front of them and injuries. That's cause by the parity and the salary cap.

So drop out of the debate while we enjoy it then.

 

[PaulD]

Best money goalies I have watched . (meaning play offs)

Dryden
Hasek
Smith
Roy
Broduer
Belfour
Fuhr

 

[PaulD]

Until Price wins a cup he will not be in their class. Unfair or not that's how it is. And that's the way it should be.

It just sucks that he's been behind the teams we've had. All we can do is have 'coulda been' conversations about this.

I just think people should take things into consideration when comparing these guys. We're comparing him to three of the best goalies the NHL has ever seen - that in itself is a compliment.

Well said LG .