Price and PK and the Elephant

habsfanatics*

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May 20, 2012
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So I guess when Toronto made the playoffs 2 seasons ago it was also due to great coaching. Funny how they dropped back down to Earth this past season like many predicted based on the underlying stats.

It's actually funny that your argument is that you predicted the Habs not making the playoffs, were completely wrong about that, and somehow use that as proof that Therrien is doing a good job. Whereas people who do look at the underlying stats noticed that even when we finished 3rd last our underlying stats were quite good and so accurately predicted us bouncing back and making the playoffs both 2 years ago and this past year. They even predicted us slowing down a bit last season compared to 2013 after adding guys like Parros, Murray, Briere because they knew it would hurt our stats.

All this is fine, but we were 3rd in the East and made the ECF :sarcasm:. I don't why people don't look at the process involved that led to the results rather than just the results. They most likely thought we were a great team during our last playoff run too, even though we out-shot, out-chanced 2-1.

I also find it a bit disturbing that posters rate a 17 game sample size over the 82 before it. There's always a some sort of Cinderella story almost every year, teams get hot at the right times etc. Players have one of those playoffs for the ages all the time, like Halak, Anderson, Druce, Kontos, and many, many, many more. Bickell is another one who gets overrated because of a couple really solid performances. It's downright silly imo.
 

bsl

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Oct 9, 2009
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That pretty much sums it up and I said it warrant a knock on Therrien, that said I also praised his system that relies on defensive responsibility more than putting pressure to score goals, wich in the end, hinders individual stats for the team profit.

Therrien should've acted to spark Eller / Bourque out of their funk, but IMO putting Markov with Emelin and Subban with Bouillon (when Gorges got hurt) was the right thing to do to maintain balanced and defensively capable pairings on the ice for 80-90% of the time, although we all know that Subban was carrying Bouillon, and that reflects in Bouillon avg ice-time.

I think MT has flaws but his system did work, despite players underperforming. Like you said though, his system is mostly sucessful due to our key players dominating in a big way. And in the end it's always like that, coaches are always dependant on how their key players perform for them. What I like about Therrien is that he is a barking son of a *****, he makes the players work harder and is not complacent. And that's the way a good hockey coach should be, makes players accountable and more responsible. See, coaches like Dan Bylsma are IMO never a good thing, they become their player's best buddies and it creates a comfortable atmosphere, and you kind of always want your players to compete internally, drive them to get better. BTW I loved his approach with Subban, tough love, and Subban might dislike it but in the end that'll make him a better player (always IMO anyways). Take it for what it is, I experienced both types of coaching during my brief career and the hardest ones, the ones you'd hate in your dreams (got me riled up pretty good occasionnaly in practices) were the ones garnering more satisfying end results (winning tournies, championships).

Blah Blah. Scotty Bowman got the very best out of 1, 2, 3 and 4th line players. Every single player. Year after year. Therrien does not. Do not care if players love him or hate him. Not my business.

Therrien does not work hard enough, he's too old, and he's lazy. If I worked like him, and had poor performances from 3/4 of my staff, I would be fired. He was not thorough last year. He needs to be thorough, with every single player. He makes 1mill min a season coaching the Montreal Canadiens, I expect nothing less, nor should you.

If we have the same regression with 10 players this year, good bye **** you very much Therrien.

You don't think so? Molson will not tolerate a **** team with Subby at 9 mill. Now it's getting serious.

Therrien needs to step up big time this year, quick. It's the show now. Habs can be contenders with all players performing to their maximum. That is serious **** in this city, financially.

Player management and progression last year was terrible for Therrien. I will not tolerate another one. If I see no progressions and regression from most of the lineup this year, first line to fourth, I'm going to rip Therrien's ass on these boards, big time.
 
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MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
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Bailed out by Price?

Isn't it something one of the better paid goalies should do more often than any of its peers anyways?
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
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The Habs made it because their goalie stood on his head. We couldn't score, we couldn't defend and we were outplayed all year.



Do we beat the Bruins without Price standing on his head? No.

In the playoffs I think we actually played pretty well for the most part btw. MT seemed to step away from the ridiculous dump and chase that he had in the regular season. But again, we don't even make it past Boston if Price isn't insanely good in that series, esp early on.


Sure. But most don't have to rely on it the way we did. Most top teams can score and defend. That's because they have good rosters and a coach who knows what he's doing. We had a good roster and a coach who was an idiot. That's why we were outshot most of the time.


Why should we credit MT and not Price? Tell us.


Tell us. What the **** did MT do to warrant any kind of credit last season? We gave up tons of scoring opps and didn't have many for ourselves. Our goalie stepped up and saved the day. Hence why our GA was top five in the league.

Yep, looking at the standings is good enough for you. That's why you aren't being taken seriously here. You've done zero to tell us why MT deserves credit for this.

We won despite him, not because of him.

If Price isn't or wasn't our best player on the ice last season, he was simply not earning his salary. Price with a, say, .915 sv%, is not doing his job.
 

Wats

Error 520
Mar 8, 2006
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When was the last time Montreal Canadiens fans thought the coach wasn't terrible?

I'm guessing Toe Blake.

Who's better all things considered:

Jacques Martin (1st round exit and final 4 appearance) or Michel Therrien (1st round exit and final 4 appearance)
 

Cole Caulifield

Registered User
Apr 22, 2004
27,967
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That pretty much sums it up and I said it warrant a knock on Therrien, that said I also praised his system that relies on defensive responsibility more than putting pressure to score goals, wich in the end, hinders individual stats for the team profit.

Therrien should've acted to spark Eller / Bourque out of their funk, but IMO putting Markov with Emelin and Subban with Bouillon (when Gorges got hurt) was the right thing to do to maintain balanced and defensively capable pairings on the ice for 80-90% of the time, although we all know that Subban was carrying Bouillon, and that reflects in Bouillon avg ice-time.

I think MT has flaws but his system did work, despite players underperforming. Like you said though, his system is mostly sucessful due to our key players dominating in a big way. And in the end it's always like that, coaches are always dependant on how their key players perform for them. What I like about Therrien is that he is a barking son of a *****, he makes the players work harder and is not complacent. And that's the way a good hockey coach should be, makes players accountable and more responsible. See, coaches like Dan Bylsma are IMO never a good thing, they become their player's best buddies and it creates a comfortable atmosphere, and you kind of always want your players to compete internally, drive them to get better. BTW I loved his approach with Subban, tough love, and Subban might dislike it but in the end that'll make him a better player (always IMO anyways). Take it for what it is, I experienced both types of coaching during my brief career and the hardest ones, the ones you'd hate in your dreams (got me riled up pretty good occasionnaly in practices) were the ones garnering more satisfying end results (winning tournies, championships).

I definitely agree with what you're saying about coaches who push their players getting better results. I think that approach provides results with most people most of the time. But I have to say I did not like it for Subban. Subban is a player that needs technical guidance, not a tough love approach. If anything, Subbans needs to be reigned it more than pushed. Subban's problem has never been level of effort and lack of want. Never. And all this tough love approach does is eliminate those types of problems. I thought Subban looked better under Martin than he did with Therrien despite winning the Norris. The production came as a result of the player improving over time naturally, and because the team played better around him but the defensive side of his game has suffered under Therrien IMO.

I am not a fan of one size fits all approaches. From what I hear, Lacroix is a technical guy and should help us a lot, hopefully. I've always read about Gallant that he was more of a player's coach than a technical coach. I'm hoping that Lacroix brings more of what Therrien lacks and I hope he can help Subban more than either Gallant or Therrien did.
 

Price is Wright

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Feb 5, 2010
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Who's better all things considered:

Jacques Martin (1st round exit and final 4 appearance) or Michel Therrien (1st round exit and final 4 appearance)

Therrien makes the team worse
Cunnyworth is an ahl coach
Martin is too defensive
Carbo has no system
Julien is a Texas cartoon character
Therrien blew it in the playoffs
Vigneault is a hot head
Tremblay is the worst ever
Demers can't control his team
Burns keeps fighting with the stars

Should I continue? Habs fans always think they are smarter. It isn't just you guys of course. Everyone thinks they are a better referee than an NHL referee but if given the chance they would mess up peewee league calls.

Nobody is too high for criticism but you should always consider the fact you don't have even 5% of the facts. All you know is what you see and that is never the whole story.
 

Smokey Thompson

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May 8, 2013
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I actually really liked Vigneault.. he just had a terrible team.

I'd love to watch his offense oriented game on a daily basis. I watched the Rangers vs Philly and Pitts before the Habs series, and man were they a exciting team to watch. Their PP was snake bitten until the ECF, but the puck movement and plays that would make was amazing to watch compared to Therrien's ******** PP.
 

Roulin

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Mar 21, 2007
4,242
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Montreal
Bailed out by Price?

Isn't it something one of the better paid goalies should do more often than any of its peers anyways?

If Price isn't or wasn't our best player on the ice last season, he was simply not earning his salary. Price with a, say, .915 sv%, is not doing his job.

I would've been on board with this a couple of years ago, but goalie cap hits have been creeping up. Price isn't all that highly paid at this point:

Lundqvist 8.5M
Rinne 7
Rask 7
Price 6.5
Ward 6.3
Crawford 6
Miller 6
Varlamov 5.9
Lehtonen 5.9
Quick 5.8
Smith 5.67
Bobrovski 5.63

...that's 12 of 30 starting goalies, all in Price's range.
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,842
16,587
I would've been on board with this a couple of years ago, but goalie cap hits have been creeping up. Price isn't all that highly paid at this point:

Lundqvist 8.5M
Rinne 7
Rask 7
Price 6.5
Ward 6.3
Crawford 6
Miller 6
Varlamov 5.9
Lehtonen 5.9
Quick 5.8
Smith 5.67
Bobrovski 5.63

...that's 12 of 30 starting goalies, all in Price's range.

Those goalies, with the exception of Rask and Crawford, all bail out their teams on a somewhat frequent basis. Boston and Chicago are also better teams.... Though Boston is going downwards
 

Sorinth

Registered User
Jan 18, 2013
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Bailed out by Price?

Isn't it something one of the better paid goalies should do more often than any of its peers anyways?

Yes good goalies are able to do it and Price did. But the goal is to have a team that's good enough that it rarely needs it's goalie to save them.
 

Price is Wright

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Feb 5, 2010
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Yes good goalies are able to do it and Price did. But the goal is to have a team that's good enough that it rarely needs it's goalie to save them.

It's not about rarity but consistency. When you put the best team in the league up against the worst team in the league, that doesn't mean the best team is always going to stay out of trouble or never allow an odd man rush. Even the worst teams get lucky and it's up to a goalie to minimize the chance of luck.

I think the Habs are a solid team even without Price. But just about every contender crumbles without their goalie.
 

mustardnight*

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Aug 11, 2011
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While I will concede our second, and especially the third, pairings left more than a little to be desired. This is where playing rookies becomes advantageous. Instead of anchoring Subban with Bouillon, why not pair him with Beaulieu? Sure, Beaulieu would make mistakes, however his confidence would be through the roof. He's playing with one of the best defensemen in the league. Not to mention, Subban was in his exact same position four years ago and would be arguably the most ideal mentor. That would serve to ground Subban, which this organization seems intent on doing, and develop a fledgling defenseman.

Beaulieu - Subban
Markov - Emelin
Gorges - Weaver/Diaz

It's better simply because Bouillon isn't on the team.

This hearkens back to arguably the biggest criticism people have of Therrien. He doesn't not play rookies/youth in positions to succeed, or at the expense of veteran talent. While I could see the merit in Tinordi going back to the AHL last season, Beaulieu was more than ready to step into the NHL, especially given how we deploy our lines. Even the third pairing gets ample minutes. Other teams have done so to great effect. We, on the other hand, bury our youth on depth lines (Galchenyuk, Eller) or in the minors (Beaulieu).

I will say, if there is one thing I will commend Bergevin on going into this season, it is the apparent intent to do away with that paradigm. So I hope to hell we do not sign Bouillon.


Gorges... is gone.
 

Lafleurs Guy

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Jul 20, 2007
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Bailed out by Price?

Isn't it something one of the better paid goalies should do more often than any of its peers anyways?
So we should credit MT for this? He had nothing to do with our goaltending. So why are folks crediting him with anything?
If Price isn't or wasn't our best player on the ice last season, he was simply not earning his salary. Price with a, say, .915 sv%, is not doing his job.
His job isn't to save the coach's ass and that's what he did.
When was the last time Montreal Canadiens fans thought the coach wasn't terrible?

I'm guessing Toe Blake.
Go down the list of guys we've had as coach. Its been a long sad line for the last decade or so. Vigneault is really the only good coach I can think of since Demers.
 

Mats NAslund

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Feb 27, 2002
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So we should credit MT for this? He had nothing to do with our goaltending. So why are folks crediting him with anything?

His job isn't to save the coach's ass and that's what he did.

Go down the list of guys we've had as coach. Its been a long sad line for the last decade or so. Vigneault is really the only good coach I can think of since Demers.

Problem is Montreal is always having / trying to appease the French media and population by hiring the best French speaking coach rather than looking for the best coach!

Wether you like it or not it's the truth!
 

SB164

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Apr 29, 2010
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I'd love to watch his offense oriented game on a daily basis. I watched the Rangers vs Philly and Pitts before the Habs series, and man were they a exciting team to watch. Their PP was snake bitten until the ECF, but the puck movement and plays that would make was amazing to watch compared to Therrien's ******** PP.

Rangers vs Penguins was a snoozefest.
 

HabsFanJosh

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Jun 28, 2014
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Honestly, with PAPs ability to be a playmaker, and seeing how well he did beside Tavares, I'm inclined to think he can replicate some of that success playing with Patches. That leaves Gally to fill in for Gionta next to Pleks and play a 2nd line role. The Habs still have Eller and Pleks to take on all defensive responsibility, and seeing how Eller is being paid the same as DD now, ii don't see us sheltering Ellers minutes in favour of DD.

Montreals strength doesn't lay in having a first, second and third line. It's about having depth. Our top three lines have the ability to win games, and act as our first line on any given night. Very few teams actually have legitimate first lines, with each player on the line being deserving of the position. It's usually based on chemistry. For the moment, DD and Patches have the best chemistry together. I'm hoping PAP will complete that line and allow us to ice either the EGG line again or give Pleks a full season with talented wingers. So, TBH, DD is giving us the opportunity to spread out or talent and become a stronger depth team. Until Chucky displays the ability to be an offensive force, then I don't see the reason in destroying what little depth we have on the LW and as a team as a whole just to try and create a "first line" with a legitimate first line centre
 

Hackett

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Mar 4, 2002
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Who's better all things considered:

Jacques Martin (1st round exit and final 4 appearance) or Michel Therrien (1st round exit and final 4 appearance)

tough call IMO.

Martin did actually serve a purpose. I thought he did a good job of changing the culture of the team, if nothing else.

MT has gotten results in both years that probably exceeded expectations, although his route of getting there is not very popular...
 

macavoy

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May 27, 2009
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tough call IMO.

Martin did actually serve a purpose. I thought he did a good job of changing the culture of the team, if nothing else.

MT has gotten results in both years that probably exceeded expectations, although his route of getting there is not very popular...

I'm curious

What was our culture before Martin got here and after iyo
 

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