GDT: Preseason Game 2: Coyotes @ Flames - 6PM

[Hinterland]

I know it was a throwaway comment (last year sucked when Tkachuk was going to be around our pick - how much fun would a Tkachuk / Dvo / Marner line have been to watch last year?) but as stated I think the reasoning behind the Strome pick remains intriguing. If he never becomes a first line centre, it is the kind of misstep that can sink a team. I remain hopeful though.

Are you crazy? Marner is nothing but a one dimensional winger. Just another Hudler or Gaudreau. Strome is gonna be the next Christian Dvorak...just with a bit more size. He needs one more year to figure out his skating and mobility but he's gonna be an important piece of the team going forward. You can always sign a scoring winger...especially lefties. But franchise center hardly ever hit free agency.
Tkachuk is great but he's an unfair ***** who needs to be taught a lesson. Deserves a proper beating and a long suspension if he continues to behave the way he did last season. He's about to turn into the next rat...Marchand 2.0.

To summarize:
I'm more than happy with Perlini, Dvorak and Fischer and I'd take that trio over yours any day of the week. Perlini is a natural goalscorer without defensive liabilities and Fischer is big, tough and should be one of the teams best two way forwards from day 1.

I think it's interesting to consider Nylander's trajectory, too. He doesn't have the same draft context or pressure as Strome (8th vs. 3rd in that stacked first round), but he shows how difficult it is to start at centre in the NHL for those non-generational talents. After the growth spurt Nylander seemingly put in much more conditioning work than Strome in his draft +1, yet even with his insane post draft resume & the benefit of the early AHL option, he's still played few games at centre in the NHL. Matthews is the obvious reason for that, but it's interesting to think how Nylander would have looked at C full time last year compared with Strome this year. Does Strome need that AHL season / half season?

Comparing Nylander and Strome would be like comparing apples and bananas. One
does well purely because of speed and mobility, the other one isn't ready to play in the NHL because of it. But there's a reason why Nylander didn't go 3rd overall. There's also a reason why he didn't get to play Center and probably won't in the near future.

It may all end horribly, but for now I'm glad to at least have that potential at centre rather than saddling Dvo with all the pressure of having to be the guy, or Keller to have to play in the middle, or to worry about making a trade for a 1C, or for Stepan to be the best C on a future cup winning team. Following Strome or seeing Edmonton's turnaround reinforces how hard it is to develop elite talent without draft luck, & how important it is to keep hold of the elite talent you do have, like OEL. You cannot afford to miss on high picks, but I think the positional argument - the need to build a strong spine - is still there.

Why would it end horribly? Only if Chayka and co mess up in my view.
Coyotes have great Center depth. Can't have too many. Franchise defenders and Centers are the toughest to get. Strome, MacInnis, Pederson, Mayo and Joseph all looked good so that's positive. I still want DeAngelo back and I think it was a mistake to trade him but what can you do...

Erm, on topic, did they double shift Demers last night? He seemed to pop up on the left a few times.

They had four righties in last night. Weird lineup. Demers did play on the left side now and then and man it wasn't pretty. Definitely not the solution

 

[knich]

I still think Strome is going to be a very good player. Everyone is jumping to conclusions.

I haven't given up on Strome...yet.

Are you crazy? Marner is nothing but a one dimensional winger. Just another Hudler or Gaudreau. Strome is gonna be the next Christian Dvorak...just with a bit more size. He needs one more year to figure out his skating and mobility but he's gonna be an important piece of the team going forward. You can always sign a scoring winger...especially lefties. But franchise center hardly ever hit free agency.
Tkachuk is great but he's an unfair ***** who needs to be taught a lesson. Deserves a proper beating and a long suspension if he continues to behave the way he did last season. He's about to turn into the next rat...Marchand 2.0.

To summarize:
I'm more than happy with Perlini, Dvorak and Fischer and I'd take that trio over yours any day of the week. Perlini is a natural goalscorer without defensive liabilities and Fischer is big, tough and should be one of the teams best two way forwards from day 1.



Comparing Nylander and Strome would be like comparing apples and bananas. One
does well purely because of speed and mobility, the other one isn't ready to play in the NHL because of it. But there's a reason why Nylander didn't go 3rd overall. There's also a reason why he didn't get to play Center and probably won't in the near future.




Why would it end horribly? Only if Chayka and co mess up in my view.
Coyotes have great Center depth. Can't have too many. Franchise defenders and Centers are the toughest to get. Strome, MacInnis, Pederson, Mayo and Joseph all looked good so that's positive. I still want DeAngelo back and I think it was a mistake to trade him but what can you do...





They had four righties in last night. Weird lineup. Demers did play on the left side now and then and man it wasn't pretty. Definitely not the solution

Demers is a proven NHL top 4 defenseman whose game is tailored to today's NHL. I don't expect him to stink it up like Gogo did in his first year and a half with us even if (I did not watch) he did last night. He'll be fine on either side.

 

[Matias Maccete]

Strome's gonna be a beast. Just watch.

Agreed, I think he'll be spezza like.

 

[cactus shake]

Are you crazy?

Probably.

Marner is nothing but a one dimensional winger. Just another Hudler or Gaudreau. Strome is gonna be the next Christian Dvorak...just with a bit more size. He needs one more year to figure out his skating and mobility but he's gonna be an important piece of the team going forward. You can always sign a scoring winger...especially lefties. But franchise center hardly ever hit free agency.
Tkachuk is great but he's an unfair ***** who needs to be taught a lesson. Deserves a proper beating and a long suspension if he continues to behave the way he did last season. He's about to turn into the next rat...Marchand 2.0.

Fundamentally disagree that Marner is similar to Gaudreau. Marner aggressively follows the puck - he was top 10 for takeaways last season. Even if I did agree, if your 'one dimension' creates high quality scoring chances as frequently as a Gaudreau or Kane, you can still be an elite player. Having to build with 1Cs/1Ds through the draft was central to my post. But elite wingers with the ability to carry a line are also pretty hard to acquire. Never mind that Marner's a right hand shot.

Even if I slightly agree on Tkachuk, I find that type of player entertaining when they're on your team. I too am excited for Perlini and Fischer.

Comparing Nylander and Strome would be like comparing apples and bananas. One does well purely because of speed and mobility, the other one isn't ready to play in the NHL because of it. But there's a reason why Nylander didn't go 3rd overall. There's also a reason why he didn't get to play Center and probably won't in the near future.

I expect Nylander to end up at centre, so I was just comparing how long it takes most players to break through there. Both have incredible offensive instincts & yes different knocks - Nylander was a shrimp when drafted. Improved skating will help Strome, but I think speed and mobility gets over emphasised in sports where the ball/puck moves many times quicker. His biggest problem in his tiny stint last year looked to be the ability to hold onto the puck. He just needs time to get stronger as he should be able to process the game at speed.

End horribly = Strome not hitting his potential as a first line centre, meaning too much else would have to go right for the team to ever compete for a cup. I think he will be a great player & I'm excited for the team's future too.

They had four righties in last night. Weird lineup. Demers did play on the left side now and then and man it wasn't pretty. Definitely not the solution

Cheers. Yeah there looked to be a dramatic difference in his play on each side, couldn't seem to move the puck comfortably while on the left. Probably just trying to get him as many reps as possible given the limited preseason schedule. Meeting the minimum requirements for NHL games played probably added to the weird split squad they sent.

 

[Hinterland]

Fundamentally disagree that Marner is similar to Gaudreau. Marner aggressively follows the puck - he was top 10 for takeaways last season. Even if I did agree, if your 'one dimension' creates high quality scoring chances as frequently as a Gaudreau or Kane, you can still be an elite player. Having to build with 1Cs/1Ds through the draft was central to my post. But elite wingers with the ability to carry a line are also pretty hard to acquire. Never mind that Marner's a right hand shot.

The way they're tracking it now, Giveaway and Takeaway are pure nonsense stats. For obvious reasons always the same teams / players leading in takeaways. Hits and Blocks are more or less accurate but still nowhere near 100%. I agree with you that Marner tries harder than Gaudreau and probably is an overall better player already but he isn't by any means anything more than a one dimensional winger at that point. Again. Just look at Brayden Point who might even lead all Tampa forwards in ice time next season because he's that good in all areas. He can play in an offensive or in a shutdown role, he can play Center and Wing and he's one of their top go to go guys both on PP and PK. Again. Being small doesn't mean you can't be a versatile two way forward. Your lines have to work as 5 man units with and against the puck or you're not even gonna win a bag of pucks in the NHL.

Cheers. Yeah there looked to be a dramatic difference in his play on each side, couldn't seem to move the puck comfortably while on the left. Probably just trying to get him as many reps as possible given the limited preseason schedule. Meeting the minimum requirements for NHL games played probably added to the weird split squad they sent.

Absolutely. Pretty obvious he didn't feel good about playing on the left side. Had some rough shifts there. He was much better on the right side.
I'm glad he's on the team. Not the most solid guy defensively but he's a dynamic puck moving vet. Exactly what the team needed. Plays with an edge, too.

 

[animalanimal]

No surprise Babcock got Bozak to take Marner by the hand. It's really obvious what's going on there. Bozak used to carry the Leafs defensively. [..] As mentioned before he gets lots of offensive zone starts and has Bozak cover for him defensively. Marner is -6 despite Babcock constantly trying to hide him.

Marner ist just Jiri Hudler vol.2. Babcock is very good at using those kind of one dimensional players but they need to be carried defensively and physically and that's most likely also what happened when Marner got to play with Tkachuk and Dvorak.

you'd have to take them for free of course but you really shouldn't take them over point. I'm really surprised babcock allowed this to happen. Probably too much pressure in toronto but marner should not be in the nhl at this point. He's about as one dimensional as gaudreau who needs not one but two babysitters. Take monahan and backlund away and the kid gets destroyed every single game.
Point on the other side can play in any role no matter what. At the end when tampa tried to rescue their season point was their top center playing 20mins per game. He was their go to guy on both pp and pk. He did no matter what. He can play in a shutdown role and he can score. Marner and gaudreau can play on the pp and 3vs3. With a bit of luck they don't gather too much minus if you give them loads of offensive zone starts against weak opposition alongside two babysitters

Size alone isn't important. But you need to be strong on the puck and size also can't be an excuse for not playing against the puck. I'm not necessarily against small players. Brayden Point for example is brilliant. Nobody expected him to make the team last season but he's done it all for the Bolts. Great both on and against the puck. What I don't want is a Gaudreau or Marner who need a bodyguard and offensive zone starts in order to survive in the NHL. All those points they score are just hot garbage considering what it takes to carry a player like that.
I want Keller in the NHL when he's as ready as for example Point and not before.

Are you crazy? Marner is nothing but a one dimensional winger. Just another Hudler or Gaudreau. [..] You can always sign a scoring winger...especially lefties.

The way they're tracking it now, Giveaway and Takeaway are pure nonsense stats. For obvious reasons always the same teams / players leading in takeaways. Hits and Blocks are more or less accurate but still nowhere near 100%. I agree with you that Marner tries harder than Gaudreau and probably is an overall better player already but he isn't by any means anything more than a one dimensional winger at that point. Again. Just look at Brayden Point who might even lead all Tampa forwards in ice time next season because he's that good in all areas. He can play in an offensive or in a shutdown role, he can play Center and Wing and he's one of their top go to go guys both on PP and PK. Again. Being small doesn't mean you can't be a versatile two way forward. Your lines have to work as 5 man units with and against the puck or you're not even gonna win a bag of pucks in the NHL.

bozak is an excellent two way center and from what i saw, the trio mostly faced weak competition and got loads of offensive zone starts.
Marner probably doesn't even know what backchecking is...

came to check how your guys rookies have been doing and i see this guy being just horrendously wrong. looked into his posts and dear lord. saying something like marner doesn't even know what backchecking is, he shouldn't be in the league, or that bozak used to carry the leafs defensively and now carries marner is so insanely the opposite of reality that sometimes you just have to call someone out. seems you've barely watched marner, evidenced by the opinions you've expressed and the fact that you thought he was a lefty. i was especially amused how you have this thing for tying marner to gaudreau like if you keep insisting they're the same player it'll just be true. i don't want to throw bozak and jvr under the bus but they are not in any way babysitters or carrying marner defensively, it wasn't that long ago people were calling them with kessel the worst line in the league defensively but apparently according to Hinterland bozak has the been the defensive backbone of this team for years. marner and dvorak were the first pk unit for knights and their pk was 2nd in the league and they won the memorial cup. babcock hasn't seemed like he's been interested in his offensive star rookies pking for him yet but he went to marner on occasions when they were short a pker and he was excellent when called upon. so i've got a few gifs from an article i read recently and some from my computer + some quotes that mention his defensive play, backchecking and pking.

marner's backchecking provided one of the highlights of our playoffs, when he caught up to ovechkin on the breakaway in ot:


this is a great article that highlights some good plays that marner's made:
https://theleafsnation.com/2017/07/20/mitchell-marner-entertainer/
so i've embedded a few of them that showed him backchecking and on the pk:



i had these two gifs on my computer of marner's insane backchecking:
he's #9

he's #93

and here's some quotes that talk about his backchecking and defensive play:

What’s your early assessment of Mitch Marner?

Babcock: He’s outstanding. Has the puck all the time. He’s great defensively. He’s a great player. https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2016...ime-hes-great-defensively-hes-a-great-player/

“He competes with and without the puck. That’s really positive. I’ve never coached a kid that good that young.â€
Marner’s junior coach Dale Hunter of the London Knights, isn’t surprised at Marner’s NHL success, “He has a great motor,†Hunter said when asked to explain the massive ice time. “That means he’s able to play a lot of minutes, but he never stops on the forecheck or the backcheck.†http://lastwordonhockey.com/2017/02/10/mitch-marner-toronto-maple-leafs-not-secret-weapon/

“He kills penalties for me. He blocks shots. He does the little things, too, that a guy like Mike would like because that’s what coaches like,†Hunter told Hockey Central at Noon Thursday. “That their best players can also block shots, kill penalties, do the little things to win. He’ll do that. He’s a character kid that way.†http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/juniors/dale-hunter-leafs-babcock-will-like-mitch-marner/

A dynamic offensive forward that backchecks hard and establishes his presence through playing smart, puck-possession hockey. A very quick skater gifted with great hands and hockey sense. Battles hard in all three zones and shows a willingness to do whatever it takes to get the puck to the back of the net; an unselfish player. Embodies the definition of a dynamic number-generating machine who makes the players around him better. (Curtis Joe, EP 2014) http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=223194

“He has a hockey mind. You watch him and you see he’s always thinking. And he’s thinking at full speed. He’s one of those kids, he knew the answers when you asked him and, more than that, he knew them on the ice. He knew how to play D. He knew how to create O. If we were down a goal, we’d put him on. And if we were up a goal late, we put him on. He played in every situation for us.â€-Dale Hunter http://www.torontosun.com/2016/11/22/leafs-mitch-marner-is-every-coachs-dream

'This is a really well rounded player. I watched a game really early in the season with a scout from a team; he wasn’t an Ontario area guy, he was just in and kind of getting his first look. It was really interesting; he made the comment, “you just don’t see player this good that backcheck that hard.†I think that says it all about Marner right there; how well rounded he is' https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2015/06/15/mitch-marner-scouting-report/

“He’s been excellent,†the scout said. “He does a lot of things on the defensive side of the puck he doesn’t get credit for. He blocks shots, kills penalties and back-checks hard.

“He’s a good defensive player, but all anyone talks about is his scoring.†http://www.lfpress.com/2016/04/21/london-knights-top-line-locked-in

Patrick Kane: “One of the things with him that I really notice when I watch him is he’s got that all-around complete game where he’s blocking shots, playing defence–which I never really did that much at that age" http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/patrick-kane-gives-scouting-report-marner-matthews-maple-leafs/

and babcock has said multiple times that marner is the driver of his line, here is an example

Conventional wisdom in hockey is that a center drives a line. Just wondering, in Mitch’s case as a winger, what it is about him that…

Babcock: That’s a real good question. Kane in Chicago is the same way. They can drive a line without a dominant center. That’s probably because they carry the puck so much and they have the puck so much. There is not many guys that I’ve seen over the years that can drive a line as the winger. They usually need a good centerman with them. I’ve always been under the assumption that if you can get the center, get the center every time. But, in Mitch’s case, he’s one of those guys that has that rare ability. Especially as a young kid, he’s been able to do it already. https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2017...k-mitch-marner-driving-line-alexey-marchenko/

sometimes you gotta confront someone who's that aggressively and blatantly wrong with reality ya know? just felt like it today. maybe he'll stop peddling falsehoods. ok bye. love your young guys, i think they're going to be great offensively this year.

 

[rt]

came to check how your guys rookies have been doing and i see this guy being just horrendously wrong. looked into his posts and dear lord. saying something like marner doesn't even know what backchecking is, he shouldn't be in the league, or that bozak used to carry the leafs defensively and now carries marner is so insanely the opposite of reality that sometimes you just have to call someone out. seems you've barely watched marner, evidenced by the opinions you've expressed and the fact that you thought he was a lefty. i was especially amused how you have this thing for tying marner to gaudreau like if you keep insisting they're the same player it'll just be true. i don't want to throw bozak and jvr under the bus but they are not in any way babysitters or carrying marner defensively, it wasn't that long ago people were calling them with kessel the worst line in the league defensively but apparently according to Hinterland bozak has the been the defensive backbone of this team for years. marner and dvorak were the first pk unit for knights and their pk was 2nd in the league and they won the memorial cup. babcock hasn't seemed like he's been interested in his offensive star rookies pking for him yet but he went to marner on occasions when they were short a pker and he was excellent when called upon. so i've got a few gifs from an article i read recently and some from my computer + some quotes that mention his defensive play, backchecking and pking.

marner's backchecking provided one of the highlights of our playoffs, when he caught up to ovechkin on the breakaway in ot:


this is a great article that highlights some good plays that marner's made:
https://theleafsnation.com/2017/07/20/mitchell-marner-entertainer/
so i've embedded a few of them that showed him backchecking and on the pk:



i had these two gifs on my computer of marner's insane backchecking:
he's #9

he's #93

and here's some quotes that talk about his backchecking and defensive play:





and babcock has said multiple times that marner is the driver of his line, here is an example


sometimes you gotta confront someone who's that aggressively and blatantly wrong with reality ya know? just felt like it today. maybe he'll stop peddling falsehoods. ok bye. love your young guys, i think they're going to be great offensively this year.

Thank you. Thank you! Please feel free to stop by and put that guy in his place any time you have a minute to do so. I appreciate it. His hot takes are so, so, so hot. Please stop by with ice water any time. I think most of us would be relieved for the assistance. I gave up a while ago but it's painful to watch my fellow Coyotes posters still engaging. Thank you for the assist.

 

[Matias Maccete]

Great post animal animal, sadly I'm pretty certain it will fall on deaf ears lol. Still, I haven't seen anyone get owned that hard in a long while.

 

[Naych_PHX]

Yeah, now that's a great post with actual insight. I will say, I now have a slightly new level of respect for Marner. Unfortunately, this will probably make whatshisname more steadfast in what he says.