Premier League 2020-2021 (Part II)

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East Coast Bias

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4 points separates 5th from 15th and also 1st to 7th. With the game in hand the teams in 9-11th have they would move into those top 7 spots with a win and you have 10 teams within 4 points of 1st. 3 or 4 points could be the difference between top 4 or 6 and banter spot. That's what make these arguments on squad quality in other threads so pointless. 1 result can be the difference between 4th or 6th or 6th and 10th. 1 bad VAR decision away from CL or mid table.

As far as OGS/United, they finished with 66 points the last 2 seasons and actually had 1 fewer win last year than the year before. The difference is it was good enough for 3rd last year after it being 6th the year before. They are on pace for 68 points this season. Looks like that will be a Europa point total again this year. Has there been any improvement? Not in the point totals.

To be fair in 2018-2019 Ole was 12 wins, 4 draws and 5 losses in 21 games. He didn't manage the full season.

So you have to look at United by the following

pre December 18th, 2018 it was a shit squad who Jose couldn't drag anywhere

Post December 18th, 2018 squad is great, manager is shit
 

YNWA14

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To be fair in 2018-2019 Ole was 12 wins, 4 draws and 5 losses in 21 games. He didn't manage the full season.

So you have to look at United by the following

pre December 18th, 2018 it was a shit squad who Jose couldn't drag anywhere

Post December 18th, 2018 squad is great, manager is shit
I feel like it's more that United is an above average team, but nothing special, that Mou did really well with for a year then self-destructed (for whatever reasons anyone wants to think), and now United is still an above average team though nothing special and Ole is meh.
 

Blender

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Work permits for EU players and youth signings hit under post-Brexit rules

The Football Association has announced a radical post-Brexit shake‑up that will mean Premier League and EFL clubs cannot sign foreign players until they are 18, with all transfers from European Union nations set to be subject to work permits that will be allocated using a points-based system.

In a controversial move that could have seismic effects on the recent dominance of English clubs over their European rivals, a joint statement from the FA, Premier League and EFL confirmed on Tuesday that the new system, which will come into force when the UK’s transition period after leaving the EU ends on 31 December and has been approved by the Home Office, will also see Premier League clubs limited to signing no more than three overseas players under the age of 21 in any single transfer window and a total of no more than six per season.
 

Evilo

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Yes, restricting where people can earn a living is always good.
Yes, when in in the end it's a positive for the player.
Young 16 year old can finally finish their formation in their academy rather then killing it by moving abroad to soon.

Of course, Leipzig and BVB will be there too, but it's less temptations for the youngsters.
 
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Havre

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I don't mind that at all. Sounds reasonable to me. Not good for anyone that PL clubs are vacuuming Europe for talent just because they can afford 99% of those players failing.

Will we see Ødegaard-style moves where parents are given jobs by the clubs? I'm sure Chelsea's lawyers are at it :laugh:
 

Evilo

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I don't mind that at all. Sounds reasonable to me. Not good for anyone that PL clubs are vacuuming Europe for talent just because they can afford 99% of those players failing.

Will we see Ødegaard-style moves where parents are given jobs by the clubs? I'm sure Chelsea's lawyers are at it :laugh:
EPL teams have done it for years. Chelsea as well.
 

JeffreyLFC

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Barcelona and Real Madrid are top poachers too.

If anything it will sway more youngster to spain, germany and italy.

I mean at LFC the poached kids are mostly from other teams in the uk not many players from other nation.

The only french youngsters at the academy from recent memory are Koumetio and Laroucy.

And before that... Crickets. I don't have any name in mind.
 
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Havre

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It would have been cool to see stats on who is succeeding based on path taken. More and more Norwegian "kids" go straight to academies around in Europe. I am trying to think of any player except Joshua King who never established himself somewhat in Norway, but rather went through the academy route? I know quite a few stories of "failures" from hyped Norwegian kids at Man Utd, Liverpool, Ajax etc.

Ødegaard: Played 1 season in Norway (more or less) - obviously left very young, but not straight to a normal "kids academy" abroad
Haaland: 1 season+ in Norway
Berge: 1 season+ in Norway
Ajer: 2-3 season in Norway
Sørloth: 2 seasons or something in Norway
Hauge: Several seasons in Norway

These are all young players that by Norwegian standards have somewhat established themselves at big clubs. Every single one of them, and Ødegaard and Haaland being world class talents, have first proven themselves in the Norwegian league (which quite clearly is not a very strong league).

So why would you want to leave for an academy abroad when even kids in cold Norway can develop just as well locally? I would like to see any country at the moment with a per capita pool of talent better than that list - from a country where the climate is hardly football friendly.

I get it when kids from "poor" countries got to take a chance. And that list is hardly scientific proof of anything, but if I was a 14 year old kid in Norway being offered to join Spurs I really hope I would have said no (or my parents would have).
 

Chimaera

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Barcelona and Real Madrid are top poachers too.

If anything it will sway more youngster to spain, germany and italy.

I mean at LFC the poached kids are mostly from other teams in the uk not many players from other nation.

The only french youngsters at the academy from recent memory are Koumetio and Laroucy.

And before that... Crickets. I don't have any name in mind.

That's not really true. They've had a long habit of taking Spanish kids, from Pacheco, to Nacho, to Luis Alberto (Though he was more straight transfer) to Suso, to Chirivella, and those are just kids who got a cup of coffee or made it to nominally the first team somewhere that I can think off the top of my head. There were a ton of others who didn't make the grade. There are others from different leagues, though many of them, they have relationships with the club (Polish kids especially). They have taken more kids from the UK, though that makes sense geographically. But, you've got your odd Portuguese, French (heck, Larouci is somewhere still around), and Dutch (Hoever comes to mind).

They've limited the volume in the last few years, but some of that was supposedly related to some heat they were getting for some of the deals, and also a desire to scale back contracts for young players. They've dramatically cut initial wages for some of the players. They attempted to curb wages and signing bonuses for young kids. I mean, like Elliott is an example, but his wage package is way lower than they would have offered in the past. There has been a real push to keep kids like him and Jones on lower money until they break in. I'm not saying it's right, but they feel that it keeps 'players hungry' and there might be something to that, but it's certainly also about keeping the cost expenditure down. But they've still taken a number of young kids into their academy. Look at the rosters for the u18 on transfermarkt for the past few seasons. Lots of kids from other academies move in and out. It's part of the process.

I don't really have a problem with some of it. I agree that development might be better in some situations, though that's not always the case. Some of the facilities, medical and training programs some of the bigger clubs can offer are better, even if playing time might be harder to get. It is an adjustment to making the move abroad, but some of the better clubs have improved in that area. I do also think there's a vast difference in coaching and training in some ways, but I do think there are some clubs who do it right. I personally think Liverpool have done a decent job of at a minimum getting a few players through to the big club, and at worst, getting players into a situation where, while they might not make the grade in the EPL, but they're having careers out there in other leagues. Heck, some of them quite successfully. I'm not saying you can claim Suso being a good player is down to Liverpool, but the academy time didn't hurt him either.

I do think for the generic footballer, staying at their local club, or a smaller club in their own league, it might make more sense for them to grow and get playing time. But, I also see the desire for some of these young kids to get a chunk of money to help take care of their family. It's really hard to pass up enough money that could take care of your family, and say, play for the local club, when dad might not have a job (or worse not be in the picture) or when your family is scrapping to put food on the table.

It's not a perfect situation, but there are some kids who do NEED the money that EPL sides offer.
 

Chimaera

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So why would you want to leave for an academy abroad when even kids in cold Norway can develop just as well locally? I would like to see any country at the moment with a per capita pool of talent better than that list - from a country where the climate is hardly football friendly.

I get it when kids from "poor" countries got to take a chance. And that list is hardly scientific proof of anything, but if I was a 14 year old kid in Norway being offered to join Spurs I really hope I would have said no (or my parents would have).

I mean, some of that last part depends on what your parents can afford. If you're a middle class kid, maybe you don't need the money. Maybe your parents have a job or economic opportunity to take care of your siblings. Maybe you feel moving abroad gets you noticed, or opportunities quicker.

It's not a cut and dry thing. If I was a Norwegian kid, I might want to cut my teeth at a local club, but at some point, you might want to try and make the grade with a bigger location. The resources alone aren't apples to oranges as well. You think a smaller Norwegian side can offer the same amount of support, coaching, training, medical, etc as a super power? Sure, it's a risk, and I get the idea of not wanting to leave comfort zones, but at some point, you might have to back yourself as well. A lot of these kids do think they're gonna make it further than their local side.

I'm not saying it's a perfect system, but I do think there should be some freedom for players to move abroad if they feel that's the case.

I know there are many nations where there is decent development. But is that the case on down? You think a Lithuanian kid is getting anywhere near the training they might get in France or Spain? I can't blame some of them for wanting to try and get better.
 

Chimaera

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Yes, EPL is doing this for charity.
They're clearly not doing it. I imagine they'll push to have it rescinded.

I don't know where I stand on it. I think in general, I support a players right to get the most money they can, and if they can't move abroad, that might limit it. Long term that might not be the best play, but I'm not sure every player thinks that way. Or can afford to.

The reality of the situation is many of these kids do need to get the money to support their family. Maybe in a different world they wouldn't, but many do, and there's not going to be a change in the economy that will fix that anytime soon.
 

Savant

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Thought this was interesting and hard to disagree with.

 

Duchene2MacKinnon

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They're clearly not doing it. I imagine they'll push to have it rescinded.

I don't know where I stand on it. I think in general, I support a players right to get the most money they can, and if they can't move abroad, that might limit it. Long term that might not be the best play, but I'm not sure every player thinks that way. Or can afford to.

The reality of the situation is many of these kids do need to get the money to support their family. Maybe in a different world they wouldn't, but many do, and there's not going to be a change in the economy that will fix that anytime soon.
Most of those players will still make it to the lower leagues and while they wont necessarily be millionaires they would help get their families out of poverty. Overall picture this is better for footy so, ill take it.
 

Havre

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I mean, some of that last part depends on what your parents can afford. If you're a middle class kid, maybe you don't need the money. Maybe your parents have a job or economic opportunity to take care of your siblings. Maybe you feel moving abroad gets you noticed, or opportunities quicker.

It's not a cut and dry thing. If I was a Norwegian kid, I might want to cut my teeth at a local club, but at some point, you might want to try and make the grade with a bigger location. The resources alone aren't apples to oranges as well. You think a smaller Norwegian side can offer the same amount of support, coaching, training, medical, etc as a super power? Sure, it's a risk, and I get the idea of not wanting to leave comfort zones, but at some point, you might have to back yourself as well. A lot of these kids do think they're gonna make it further than their local side.

I'm not saying it's a perfect system, but I do think there should be some freedom for players to move abroad if they feel that's the case.

I know there are many nations where there is decent development. But is that the case on down? You think a Lithuanian kid is getting anywhere near the training they might get in France or Spain? I can't blame some of them for wanting to try and get better.

As I said my little analysis of current crop of Norwegian players obviously doesn't prove that every single Norwegian kid should develop locally. But I would say the situation over the last 5 years for Norwegian players is pretty clear. So what benefit has those upsides you mention when they do not give any tangible results?

And it is not like Norway got this fantastic reputation of being good at development. It has improved a lot the last 10 years, but I got no reason to believe that the "system" here is better than in Lithuania.

I don't know why it is the way it is. Obviously it sounds logical that going to a place where everything is professionally organised early "should" make sense, but for Norwegian kids the last 5 years that certainly isn't the case.
 

JeffreyLFC

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I still cannot believe that a pro sport like football don't allow an extra sub for a serious injury. I mean if a player get injured like a broken leg or like a Jimenez they still count as a regular sub even though it was in like the first half.
 

Chimaera

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As I said my little analysis of current crop of Norwegian players obviously doesn't prove that every single Norwegian kid should develop locally. But I would say the situation over the last 5 years for Norwegian players is pretty clear. So what benefit has those upsides you mention when they do not give any tangible results?

And it is not like Norway got this fantastic reputation of being good at development. It has improved a lot the last 10 years, but I got no reason to believe that the "system" here is better than in Lithuania.

I don't know why it is the way it is. Obviously it sounds logical that going to a place where everything is professionally organised early "should" make sense, but for Norwegian kids the last 5 years that certainly isn't the case.

I'm honestly sleep deprived and doing four or five things, so I'm not sure I follow. Are you making the argument that 3 or 4 of the top Norwegian talents having spent some time in Norway is an argument against going abroad? I do think they've certainly improved their base technical training levels, and that's certainly impressive when you consider they have other sports to compete against, and WINTER a lot which limits the time on the pitch.

But... I don't know if 3 or 4 stars (including some who have lineage) means their development program is on the rise. I think some of those talents probably would have developed had they hopped right over to an EPL side's or even Spanish side's academy. It just depends on which one.
 

Chimaera

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I still cannot believe that a pro sport like football don't allow an extra sub for a serious injury. I mean if a player get injured like a broken leg or like a Jimenez they still count as a regular sub even though it was in like the first half.

I am not shocked. You think clubs wouldn't abuse that? They already roll around to waste time. If you could get another sub for 'a major injury', what's to say someone doesn't go down and say, I'm hurt and go off for another sub.
 

Havre

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I'm honestly sleep deprived and doing four or five things, so I'm not sure I follow. Are you making the argument that 3 or 4 of the top Norwegian talents having spent some time in Norway is an argument against going abroad? I do think they've certainly improved their base technical training levels, and that's certainly impressive when you consider they have other sports to compete against, and WINTER a lot which limits the time on the pitch.

But... I don't know if 3 or 4 stars (including some who have lineage) means their development program is on the rise. I think some of those talents probably would have developed had they hopped right over to an EPL side's or even Spanish side's academy. It just depends on which one.

I see. So sleep deprived even counting to 6 becomes a problem - apparently.

Looking forward to see any data that suggests I'm wrong. As I stated in my initial post.
 
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