Premier League 2019-20 part II

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Vancouver Canucks

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Rumor that Liverpool is interested in Son, and they are willingly welcoming him to the club. The talks are preliminary, but we'll see how things go.
 

Havre

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Haha. What is this? Keep it to the rumours thread at least.

Unless Salah wants to move to London that is not happening.

Hopefully Spurs' luck didn't go with his hair.
 

Savant

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I’m sure that Liverpool like Sonny but would be really unlikely for a lot of reasons.
 

robertmac43

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hatterson

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A solid read on the financial reliance Watford has on the Premier League.

Watford working on plan to cope with relegation as accounts...

This is one of the downsides of the league being so financially powerful and sharing resources the way they do.

Clubs like Watford shouldn’t have to have wages that are more than three times their non-tv turnover just to remain viable to avoid relegation, but they’re basically forced to.

Even a club like Everton pays double their non-broadcasting revenue in wages.

If you replaced the English TV contract with the la Liga one, you’d see most of the bottom half forced to sell players and heavily cut wages to avoid bankruptcy.
 
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YEM

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I'm not sure why that game wasn't moved to tomorrow or wednesday [winter break rules?]
neither team is slated to play again until 2/22 at the earliest...
 

bleedblue1223

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This is one of the downsides of the league being so financially powerful and sharing resources the way they do.

Clubs like Watford shouldn’t have to have wages that are more than three times their non-tv turnover just to remain viable to avoid relegation, but they’re basically forced to.

Even a club like Everton pays double their non-broadcasting revenue in wages.

If you replaced the English TV contract with the la Liga one, you’d see most of the bottom half forced to sell players and heavily cut wages to avoid bankruptcy.

Yeah, this is the argument against a promotion/relegation system. For clubs to be financially stable, only a handful should be spending a ton of money, but for clubs to stay at the top tier, they need to spend above their own means and if they are relegated, then they have a mass liquidation of players to come back down to their own financial means. Revenue sharing is ultimately a good thing to allow for these clubs to build competitive rosters, but the downside is if they do end up being relegated, their revenue tanks.
 

bleedblue1223

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For people that go to Euro football games, why is the racism and antisemitism so blatant? That's something I've never fully understood. I go to a ton of sporting events in the States from pros to minors to college, across multiple sports, and while I've seen my fair share of drunken a-holes, I rarely see blatant racism or antisemitism, but I have seen it from time to time.

Not making this a States vs Europe argument, I just genuinely want to understand the difference in the culture that makes it like this. If it purely came down to rowdy people and alcohol, I would've expected to witness it over here at a similar frequency.
 

hatterson

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Yeah, this is the argument against a promotion/relegation system. For clubs to be financially stable, only a handful should be spending a ton of money, but for clubs to stay at the top tier, they need to spend above their own means and if they are relegated, then they have a mass liquidation of players to come back down to their own financial means. Revenue sharing is ultimately a good thing to allow for these clubs to build competitive rosters, but the downside is if they do end up being relegated, their revenue tanks.

I don't think it's an argument against promotion/relegation per se, but rather an argument against promotion/relegation when the difference between being 17th in the premiership (and thus staying up) and being 18th (and thus going down) is tens of millions of pounds.

If the TV deal was structured differently (say similar to the La Liga one) where you have it based much more significantly on TV drawing power as opposed to purely based on league finish, you wouldn't see a team at the bottom being forced to spend as much because their competition also wouldn't be spending as much.

Obviously the tradeoff there is in parity. The PL has chosen to have a much more level playing field between the top and the bottom, La Liga has chosen to give Barca and Real almost 1/4 of their TV deal (based on drawing power).

The La Liga model makes it very hard for newly promoted teams to do much beyond fight to stay up, but the advantage is they're not debt spending to do it.

The PL model makes it much easier for a team like Leicester, Wolves, Sheffield, etc. to make big runs very shortly after coming up, but the disadvantage is that if a club is relegated, they either need to earn promotion back within a year or two, or they're likely going to have a firesale and have to overhaul the entire team.
 

robertmac43

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For people that go to Euro football games, why is the racism and antisemitism so blatant? That's something I've never fully understood. I go to a ton of sporting events in the States from pros to minors to college, across multiple sports, and while I've seen my fair share of drunken a-holes, I rarely see blatant racism or antisemitism, but I have seen it from time to time.

Not making this a States vs Europe argument, I just genuinely want to understand the difference in the culture that makes it like this. If it purely came down to rowdy people and alcohol, I would've expected to witness it over here at a similar frequency.

I put a lot of stock into the deep routed political and racist issues that are more prevalent in Europe. There is just more history in that part of the world and there has been more political strive and built up tension. Europe also has more areas where tensions persists, N/A has pockets where racism is an issue but the people are for the most part more spread out.

Europe has just had the issues for far longer and therefor they have been more deep routed.
 

Havre

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The La Liga structure is a good way to avoid the league being competitive. Giving less money to teams so that they lose less when getting relegated is a very odd way of looking at things. It is perfectly possible to be among the teams that are typically moving between the PL and the Championship without always running the risk of doing a Leeds.

As for racism. It is bad, but where is it not? I don't mean that as an excuse, but having lived in several countries and traveled quite a lot all over the world I am yet to find a place where you can't notice racism. Northern Europe is probably the place alongside NA where it seems to he the least problem. And having lived in Southern Europe and as an example China I would say racism is a far bigger deal in China than Southern Europe.

It is all a bit surreal to me.
 

bleedblue1223

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I don't think it's an argument against promotion/relegation per se, but rather an argument against promotion/relegation when the difference between being 17th in the premiership (and thus staying up) and being 18th (and thus going down) is tens of millions of pounds.

If the TV deal was structured differently (say similar to the La Liga one) where you have it based much more significantly on TV drawing power as opposed to purely based on league finish, you wouldn't see a team at the bottom being forced to spend as much because their competition also wouldn't be spending as much.

Obviously the tradeoff there is in parity. The PL has chosen to have a much more level playing field between the top and the bottom, La Liga has chosen to give Barca and Real almost 1/4 of their TV deal (based on drawing power).

The La Liga model makes it very hard for newly promoted teams to do much beyond fight to stay up, but the advantage is they're not debt spending to do it.

The PL model makes it much easier for a team like Leicester, Wolves, Sheffield, etc. to make big runs very shortly after coming up, but the disadvantage is that if a club is relegated, they either need to earn promotion back within a year or two, or they're likely going to have a firesale and have to overhaul the entire team.
I know it's not really an argument against pro/rel. In reality it just means the club will just be selling a bunch of players in the summer if they are relegated, and once they are able to get promoted again, they'll then be able to spend money again on new players. It's not like a club is bloated with debt where they won't be able to financially deal with it.

I much prefer the balanced share approach that promotes parity. I don't want the elite big clubs to just always dominate because they just collect all the top players.
 

bleedblue1223

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The La Liga structure is a good way to avoid the league being competitive. Giving less money to teams so that they lose less when getting relegated is a very odd way of looking at things. It is perfectly possible to be among the teams that are typically moving between the PL and the Championship without always running the risk of doing a Leeds.

As for racism. It is bad, but where is it not? I don't mean that as an excuse, but having lived in several countries and traveled quite a lot all over the world I am yet to find a place where you can't notice racism. Northern Europe is probably the place alongside NA where it seems to he the least problem. And having lived in Southern Europe and as an example China I would say racism is a far bigger deal in China than Southern Europe.

It is all a bit surreal to me.
Yeah, I agree, I don't like the La Liga structure.

Yes, racism exists everyone, it's still crazy to me to see it so blatant in public like that with this level of frequency. I know it happens in NA sports too, so not dismissing that or saying it doesn't happen. And, yeah, racism isn't isolated to one group of people or area of the world.

I also don't know what clubs are expected to do when some of these incidents occur outside of the stadium. You can't really control that behavior, you can't enforce the racism out of someone.
 

Chimaera

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I mean, the racism in some ways is deep rooted in some of the club supporter groups. They've been radicalized and how they are has existed for a long while now. But some of it has changed recently, and the differences are two fold. one, there's more media exposure to draw attention to people behaving badly. Secondly, many people who might have been limited, or shunned, or frowned upon by committing acts that are seen as poor, feel emboldened to do these things. People feel like they're ok shouting things at football matches that at some point they weren't allowed to say or do. Some of that also relates to some of the changing attitudes. Saying some things are not ok now. I also think in some ways, you've seen some of the demographics of who attends football change. As ticket prices have gone up, you've seen some of the lower classes, along with potentially immigrant groups be priced out of attending matches. Tickets are also controlled by the same groups, and in many cases passed down to generations, so they don't have exposure to new fans. The isolation does breed a familiarity and resentment against the other.

As for why it's not as prevalent in North American culture, it certainly is. It's just somewhat been sanitized or limited in scope. If you don't think it has happened in droves in college football games or basketball games or whatever, you probably have had your head in the sand. I do think though that some of the differences in someways are the fact that the US has long gone through much of the growing pains of needing to overcome integration into sports, and went through much of it in the 1940s (and in college sports much earlier). Sure, there's still some issues with it in some areas, and the racism is still there, but I think some of the explanation as to why it's different in Europe is there are many places in Europe where they don't have a lot of diversity. There are parts of the US that aren't very diverse, but athletically, every major sport (sans Hockey) has been integrated, and most to a large degree since the 1940s and 1950s. If you look at most of the major sports, there's really only hockey as the outlier that isn't dominated by non-white people. Basketball, Baseball, Football, Soccer, all of the sports are overwhelmingly diverse, many times not reflective of the populations that they exist in. If you look at some of the rosters of European football clubs, most of the clubs in smaller leagues, still really only have what are traditionally, white European players. If you go down your secondary or tertiary leagues, there might be one or two import players. Maybe. Heck, it's not that far in the past to where most of the English league rosters had just a few imported players outside of Great Britain. If you get beyond the top level or two, that's even more pronounced (although in England, there have been quite a few immigrants post WWII to increase diversity in sports). But many clubs have long been not a big location of diversity. And if they are, some of that drives some of the racism, because the player becomes the other. So combine what has long been a bit more radicalized, along with lack of exposure and integration, and you get people acting like idiots. But I wouldn't say that they have a greater problem than say in the United States. There are parts of Eastern or Southern Europe where it's a bit more prevalent, but some of that is related to having a greater rise of the far right, or feeling more stress of immigration. Racism isn't something one area has a monopoly on. But I think there was for a while (maybe it's less so of late) a greater taboo on doing things that are overtly racist in public in the United States. You maybe don't see the same society shunning in Europe that you did for a while in the US to overtly racist stuff. It doesn't meant that Americans weren't racist or didn't do things that were racist. But at least in the public sports arena, it was something that would see condemnation.
 

bleedblue1223

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I'm not saying it doesn't happen in NA sports. Subban has gotten monkey chants, and there has been plenty of reports in basketball, football, baseball, and soccer too. It's just less overt IMO. You don't see fanbases calling other fanbases antisemitic slurs or homophobic slurs, at least not nearly as much, where in Europe you can here the chants in games. It's the level of overtness that is the difference to me.
 
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