Post-Game Talk: Preds @ Those Rascals who tried to steal Shea Weber

[nine_inch_fang]

You really need to learn the difference between a fact and opinion. What I am disagreeing with is the idea Tomasino it took Tomasino the better part of November to get going versus coaching decisions making it hard to get going. That's fine if you disagree but that doesn't make your opinion a fact. I guess you've backed off the "fact" about how frequently he was scratched too.

You really don't see a difference in the play of Tomasino between now and 10 games ago?

He really started putting it together the last 3-5 games and is just now finding his scoring touch.

 

[101st_fan]

You really need to learn the difference between a fact and opinion. What I am disagreeing with is the idea Tomasino it took Tomasino the better part of November to get going versus coaching decisions making it hard to get going. That's fine if you disagree but that doesn't make your opinion a fact. I guess you've backed off the "fact" about how frequently he was scratched too.

Tomasino's play drove the coaching decisions to sit him. Tomasino not going to the low slot, not moving without the puck to find open space to execute, not getting shots on goal, not visible in the defensive zone, when trading games with players like Foudy and Fagemo failing to outperform them to stay in the lineup ... after taking three weeks in the AHL to get going last season.

Two shots for five gams in October. Twenty for November with half of those in the last three games, five days of the month.

I also haven't backed off anything. I just ignored your redefining basic words to create a narrative when objective data undermines you over and over. You have to ignore the WHY he was sat to complain about how much he was sat then. Reverse that WHY and he got his butt back in the lineup. Accountability is a beast when a coach expects it to the point he sat Glass, Pärssinen, Barrie, Trenin, Sherwood along with Tomasino.

 

[Predsanddead24]

You really don't see a difference in the play of Tomasino between now and 10 games ago?

He really started putting it together the last 3-5 games and is just now finding his scoring touch.

He's playing his best hockey of the season now for sure. I think he's played mostly good hockey going back way further than 10 games though. He's had some stinkers in between but overall I think his struggles early on were dramatically overstated by some and the reaction by the coaching staff was overkill. I see no good reason he was scratched for 4 out of 11 games over a monthlong period. Especially when the guy we put in his place was for the most part Foudy.

Tomasino's play drove the coaching decisions to sit him. Tomasino not going to the low slot, not moving without the puck to find open space to execute, not getting shots on goal, not visible in the defensive zone, when trading games with players like Foudy and Fagemo failing to outperform them to stay in the lineup ... after taking three weeks in the AHL to get going last season.

Two shots for five gams in October. Twenty for November with half of those in the last three games, five days of the month.

I also haven't backed off anything. I just ignored your redefining basic words to create a narrative when objective data undermines you over and over. You have to ignore the WHY he was sat to complain about how much he was sat then. Reverse that WHY and he got his butt back in the lineup. Accountability is a beast when a coach expects it to the point he sat Glass, Pärssinen, Barrie, Trenin, Sherwood along with Tomasino.

Lol ok. If you ever want to actually have a good faith discussion I'm here for it, but as I said before stating your opinions as fact doesn't make them so and arguing against straw men of my arguments doesn't do much for me. Hope you have a Merry Christmas!

 

[Flgatorguy87]

I'll say from my non-expert, poor hockey eye perspective, Tomasino looks nothing like he did to start the season. He looks more confident, he's getting to dangerous areas, and I'll even say he's shown a little scrap and bite after the whistle. You could argue he would've gotten into his groove faster by playing more games, but you could also argue that lighting a fire under his ass and forcing him to find his own way did him some good. Either way, I am happy with how he is playing and hope he continues to grow his game, ideally all the way up to a permanent scoring line away from his "security blanket".

 

[Predsanddead24]

I'll say from my non-expert, poor hockey eye perspective, Tomasino looks nothing like he did to start the season. He looks more confident, he's getting to dangerous areas, and I'll even say he's shown a little scrap and bite after the whistle. You could argue he would've gotten into his groove faster by playing more games, but you could also argue that lighting a fire under his ass and forcing him to find his own way did him some good. Either way, I am happy with how he is playing and hope he continues to grow his game, ideally all the way up to a permanent scoring line away from his "security blanket".

Yeah you can argue he needed those scratches to get going. A scratch or two like other guys have gotten seems reasonable to me. Scratching him to the extent we did has always seemed like overkill. Glad he’s playing well now though but I also think he’s played pretty well going back to when he regularly got back into the lineup a month ago. The big difference is his shots are finally dropping the last few games.

 

[nine_inch_fang]

He's playing his best hockey of the season now for sure. I think he's played mostly good hockey going back way further than 10 games though. He's had some stinkers in between but overall I think his struggles early on were dramatically overstated by some and the reaction by the coaching staff was overkill. I see no good reason he was scratched for 4 out of 11 games over a monthlong period. Especially when the guy we put in his place was for the most part Foudy.

I try to stay away from straight comparisons between two players that are competing for a spot in the lineup. It tends to muddy the conversation creating a player A vs player B slant that has nothing to do with either players performance.

Foudy isn't even on the roster and Tomasino was sat 5 games ago. What was the excuse then?

I guess we just disagree on how Tomasino was performing on the ice.

 

[nine_inch_fang]

Yeah you can argue he needed those scratches to get going. A scratch or two like other guys have gotten seems reasonable to me. Scratching him to the extent we did has always seemed like overkill. Glad he’s playing well now though but I also think he’s played pretty well going back to when he regularly got back into the lineup a month ago. The big difference is his shots are finally dropping the last few games.

I would say he started showing improvement when paired with McCarron and we started the Master Blaster talk around here. He had a nice point streak going but kinda back slid a little and got scratched on and off during December.

His last 4 games after being scratched on 12/12 have just been different, in a good way. If he plays every game like these last 4 he'll be a really good player in the league. If not, he'll go back to being a frequent scratch.

 

[Predsanddead24]

I would say he started showing improvement when paired with McCarron and we started the Master Blaster talk around here. He had a nice point streak going but kinda back slid a little and got scratched on and off during December.

His last 4 games after being scratched on 12/12 have just been different, in a good way. If he plays every game like these last 4 he'll be a really good player in the league. If not, he'll go back to being a frequent scratch.

See I think he’s look different since mid-November. The numbers back that up (points and fancy stats). The big difference in the last couple games is his shots are finally dropping. That’s not to say he didn’t have some rough games in that stretch but as a whole I thinks he’s been good.

He’s only been scratched once since mid-November for what it’s worth. I think that was a mistake though. Not sure why some seem to think his being scratched means it was the right decision. I know you and others I disagree with on Tomasino feel that way about Fabbro. Also FWIW Tomasino being in the lineup also coincides with us turning things around in the standings. Don’t think he’s close to the main driver of that but he has definitely elevated the production of the 4th line which has helped a lot.

 

[herzausstein]

The young guys: Parssinen, Tomasino, Evangelista, and to a lesser extent Glass are gonna struggle some with consistency from game to game. That's part of the struggle of being a young NHL player. If the coach thinks it is best to bench them, ill probably gripe about how stupid i think it is but as long as the proper message is being given behind the scenes and the player understands what he needs to be working on to get back in the games then Im ok with it. So far i think all of them have responded positively to their journeys to the pressbox.

The whole defense thing is where i just cant makes heads or tails of it. Maybe fabbro only really fits with josi but josi mcd pairing works really well leaving us stuck with whatever the hell the schenn barrie thing is. Idk. At this point, i dont think that can be fixed without a trade.

 

[ShagDaddy]

Sometimes it’s easier to learn something new by viewing the actions performed by someone else instead of fumbling your way through it in live time. That’s how I view the trips to the press box. Receive coaching/instruction during practice, watch someone with extensive experience perform it and then try it for yourself, rinse repeat until you have mastered the skill. I’ve use this method with young engineers for years. I tell them, I show them, I let them perform the task and then I have them watch me do it again and explain what they can improve on during that event, then I let them do it again.

The grizzled vets have seen and done it all so they pick it up much quicker with much less hands on. We can’t expect the younger guys to pick it up as quick or even do it correctly for a period of time. That’s what this season is all about, coaching and learning the right things done the right way by the younger guys while the vets carry the mail so to speak. years down the road, Tomasino, Evangelista, Parsinnen and the others are going to be the grizzled vets that are needed to carry the mail while the new kids are going through the learning process. its these formative years in the NHL that will determine if they can do that so lets hope the foundation Brunette is laying for them is going to work. i trust Brunette, he had over 1000 games in the league and had to earn it the hard way because he was no superstar.

The Preds are setting in a wild card spot in a season that everyone thought would be a down year for retooling so apparently Brunette is doing something right even if the benching don’t make much sense to the fan base. It’s also why I’m not too worried about Fabbro’s situation, he’ll either figure out what Brunette wants and put it on the ice or Trot will find a replacement. It’ll all work out for the better either way. Although I will say the Schenn Barrie pairing still makes absolutely no sense to me setting in my recliner drinking a beer and watching the games.

That’s my Porter post for the holiday season

 

[101st_fan]

See I think he’s look different since mid-November. The numbers back that up (points and fancy stats). The big difference in the last couple games is his shots are finally dropping. That’s not to say he didn’t have some rough games in that stretch but as a whole I thinks he’s been good.

He’s only been scratched once since mid-November for what it’s worth. I think that was a mistake though. Not sure why some seem to think his being scratched means it was the right decision. I know you and others I disagree with on Tomasino feel that way about Fabbro. Also FWIW Tomasino being in the lineup also coincides with us turning things around in the standings. Don’t think he’s close to the main driver of that but he has definitely elevated the production of the 4th line which has helped a lot.

As many besides me keep pointing out ... there is a dramatic change in his play between when he got himself sat out and now. His assist streak ran 18-28 Nov ... well past the better part of the month. His first game with more than two SOG was 11/26.

While the rest of us are providing comparisons between his perimeter play and lack of defense earlier in the season and him going to the slot and pressuring the puck handler now you keep saying that you think sitting him was a mistake ... then point out how he didn't start well, it was at least mid-November before he started to get the most basic things going in his game, then December before it really started clicking. Please keep inadvertently supporting the claims made to why he was sat.

 

[101st_fan]

He's playing his best hockey of the season now for sure. I think he's played mostly good hockey going back way further than 10 games though. He's had some stinkers in between but overall I think his struggles early on were dramatically overstated by some and the reaction by the coaching staff was overkill. I see no good reason he was scratched for 4 out of 11 games over a monthlong period. Especially when the guy we put in his place was for the most part Foudy.


Lol ok. If you ever want to actually have a good faith discussion I'm here for it, but as I said before stating your opinions as fact doesn't make them so and arguing against straw men of my arguments doesn't do much for me. Hope you have a Merry Christmas!

His lack of SOG, where he positioned himself on the ice in every zone, and what he accomplished to start the season are objective facts which you then admit to buried in your posts. Your "I don't think ...." is subjective opinion.

Hockey professionals saw a good reason to sit him .... and his play dramatically shifted afterwards ... again something you've conceded. The only strawman here is your creation while you continually concede every point made that you rant against. Thanks for the laughs.

 

[Armourboy]

See I think he’s look different since mid-November. The numbers back that up (points and fancy stats). The big difference in the last couple games is his shots are finally dropping. That’s not to say he didn’t have some rough games in that stretch but as a whole I thinks he’s been good.

He’s only been scratched once since mid-November for what it’s worth. I think that was a mistake though. Not sure why some seem to think his being scratched means it was the right decision. I know you and others I disagree with on Tomasino feel that way about Fabbro. Also FWIW Tomasino being in the lineup also coincides with us turning things around in the standings. Don’t think he’s close to the main driver of that but he has definitely elevated the production of the 4th line which has helped a lot.

Nah he's been a different guy since the last time he got sat, and it's not just his scoring. He may have been coming out of it before then, but what we've seen since then has been considerably different. It's less to do with production and more to do with what is happening when he doesn't have it on his stick.

That said Foudy was held on too for far too long. I think most of us saw after a couple of games there just wasn't anything there, at least not enough to keep him ahead of the younger guys or just the tweeners in Milwaukee.

On the Fabbro side I've about decided it may have more with keeping the room happy than anything else. Playing wise there sure as heck isn't a reason to be playing Barrie over Fabbro that's for sure. Either that or we are just trying to let Barrie play in the hopes someone takes him. Either way I think we can all agree that playing two guys on their offhand side just so you can wedge some BS player in is silly.

Personally I would have waived Barrie and sent him to the minors after the trade request, although I'm assuming since he is still here he and his agent found out the hard way there was no trade to be had, which is why we probably haven't heard anything else. Keep pushing it and he would find himself in Milwaukee.

 

[nine_inch_fang]

I agree that he looked better when he got back in and paired with Blaster (guessing that was mid November). I'm just noting that it has been a progression and he's finally gotten to a level where he's pushing to get time on a higher line. It not just the fact pucks are going in but that helps.

The thing is, that progress has to keep going. Hopefully, at the end of the season we can look back and say he's playing at an even higher level than he is now. Sure he's playing his best hockey right now but we want more, don't we?

 

[Predsanddead24]

Nah he's been a different guy since the last time he got sat, and it's not just his scoring. He may have been coming out of it before then, but what we've seen since then has been considerably different. It's less to do with production and more to do with what is happening when he doesn't have it on his stick.

That said Foudy was held on too for far too long. I think most of us saw after a couple of games there just wasn't anything there, at least not enough to keep him ahead of the younger guys or just the tweeners in Milwaukee.

On the Fabbro side I've about decided it may have more with keeping the room happy than anything else. Playing wise there sure as heck isn't a reason to be playing Barrie over Fabbro that's for sure. Either that or we are just trying to let Barrie play in the hopes someone takes him. Either way I think we can all agree that playing two guys on their offhand side just so you can wedge some BS player in is silly.

Personally I would have waived Barrie and sent him to the minors after the trade request, although I'm assuming since he is still here he and his agent found out the hard way there was no trade to be had, which is why we probably haven't heard anything else. Keep pushing it and he would find himself in Milwaukee.

I don’t disagree he is playing better the past few games. My disagreement is that he wasn’t playing well before then. I saw a lot out of him before the past few games. His assist totals were good and the fancy stats back up he was generating offense too with his 5v5 ixG rates being second only to Forsberg on the season even if you exclude the last three games where he’s started scoring (that includes the games from his rough start too). His shots weren’t dropping until recently but he’s played pretty well for a while now.

I agree that he looked better when he got back in and paired with Blaster (guessing that was mid November). I'm just noting that it has been a progression and he's finally gotten to a level where he's pushing to get time on a higher line. It not just the fact pucks are going in but that helps.

The thing is, that progress has to keep going. Hopefully, at the end of the season we can look back and say he's playing at an even higher level than he is now. Sure he's playing his best hockey right now but we want more, don't we?

Agree here. My point which has been completely lost or maybe I didn’t make clear enough was never that he hasn’t improved during the season. It is that I think the criticisms of Tomasino by many here and our coaching staff scratching him so often were way disproportionate to how bad he was actually playing early on. Either way glad he’s playing great with no room for argument now and hope he can keep it up.

 

[Kat Predator]

That said Foudy was held on too for far too long. I think most of us saw after a couple of games there just wasn't anything there, at least not enough to keep him ahead of the younger guys or just the tweeners in Milwaukee.

This was the original conversation. How much should each play between Tomasino, Foudy, and Fagemo given the waiver claims, etc.

By the way, Tomasino is still here and playing much better. The puck is finding the net recently. The other two guys are in the AHL. So maybe the people that saw something with Tomasino weren't completely off base.

 

[ShagDaddy]

I don’t disagree he is playing better the past few games. My disagreement is that he wasn’t playing well before then. I saw a lot out of him before the past few games. His assist totals were good and the fancy stats back up he was generating offense too with his 5v5 ixG rates being second only to Forsberg on the season even if you exclude the last three games where he’s started scoring (that includes the games from his rough start too). His shots weren’t dropping until recently but he’s played pretty well for a while now.

Those fancy stats are for fan fodder and reporters to talk about and provide jobs for spreadsheet nerds in sports, they dont keep a coach in his job and coaches like their jobs (I assume). They may have a place in long term player evaluation but to use them to determine ice time in a 30 game span would be a really bad case of coaching malpractice.

What we don’t see behind the scenes during practice and film when the players get benched for a game or two is key what is going on. From what we’ve seen from the young guys after returning from a game or two off the ice should be proof that how Brunette is doing it is drastically different than how Hynes did it.

 

[Mass]

No further action with the Trenin hit unsurprisingly. Maybe I'm just a biased Preds fan or I'm out of touch with what is considered a major-worthy boarding, but that seemed like standard fare 2 minutes at best to me. Didn't take extra strides into the hit, shoulder to shoulder. I guess they wanted to save face considering it was somehow called an illegal check to the head major originally, which changed the entire lense the penalty was viewed from, from the start. Watching the video, still don't know who made the call, because both of the officials in the camera view never

 

[Predsanddead24]

Those fancy stats are for fan fodder and reporters to talk about and provide jobs for spreadsheet nerds in sports, they dont keep a coach in his job and coaches like their jobs (I assume). They may have a place in long term player evaluation but to use them to determine ice time in a 30 game span would be a really bad case of coaching malpractice.

What we don’t see behind the scenes during practice and film when the players get benched for a game or two is key what is going on. From what we’ve seen from the young guys after returning from a game or two off the ice should be proof that how Brunette is doing it is drastically different than how Hynes did it.

Fancy stats are just a tool. I definitely agree they shouldn’t be the sole decision maker but they aren’t pointless either. The ixG stat just shows that Tomasino has been getting shots from areas of the ice that you’re more likely to score from consistently for most of the season. When paired with a low shooting percentage it often means the player is just snakebit but is doing the right things. We saw the same thing with Forsberg in the early part of the season where he was getting chances but not scoring. It eventually turned in to scoring and the same seems to be starting for Tomasino.

As for the scratches it wouldn’t be my approach but the one to two game scratches don’t bother me much. I still don’t think scratching Tomasino for 4 out of 11 games was the right move. It’s a valid argument that maybe he needed that time to get his head right. I don’t agree and think we just dragged out getting him going longer than it needed to. It’s the same way I felt about his prolonged AHL stint last year. In my view we could have gotten an extra 50 or so games of development time at the NHL level but have wrongly prioritized giving other players ice time that were maybe a marginal improvement in the short term but less likely to pay dividends longer term.

Coaches do have more insight than we do up here in the peanut gallery but that doesn’t make them immune from bad choices. You can also make bad choices and generally still be a good coach which is the case with Bruno so far. Most people here seem to accept we’re making poor choices on our defensive roster decisions even though we’re still winning games and the guys like Fabbro are still playing well when given opportunities. I’m not sure why so many then try and defend other roster decisions such as Tomasino with the logic that the coaches know more than we do.

Anyways there’s my final Porter post for the day.

 

[nine_inch_fang]

Fancy stats are just a tool. I definitely agree they shouldn’t be the sole decision maker but they aren’t pointless either. The ixG stat just shows that Tomasino has been getting shots from areas of the ice that you’re more likely to score from consistently for most of the season. When paired with a low shooting percentage it often means the player is just snakebit but is doing the right things. We saw the same thing with Forsberg in the early part of the season where he was getting chances but not scoring. It eventually turned in to scoring and the same seems to be starting for Tomasino.

As for the scratches it wouldn’t be my approach but the one to two game scratches don’t bother me much. I still don’t think scratching Tomasino for 4 out of 11 games was the right move. It’s a valid argument that maybe he needed that time to get his head right. I don’t agree and think we just dragged out getting him going longer than it needed to. It’s the same way I felt about his prolonged AHL stint last year. In my view we could have gotten an extra 50 or so games of development time at the NHL level but have wrongly prioritized giving other players ice time that were maybe a marginal improvement in the short term but less likely to pay dividends longer term.

Coaches do have more insight than we do up here in the peanut gallery but that doesn’t make them immune from bad choices. You can also make bad choices and generally still be a good coach which is the case with Bruno so far. Most people here seem to accept we’re making poor choices on our defensive roster decisions even though we’re still winning games and the guys like Fabbro are still playing well when given opportunities. I’m not sure why so many then try and defend other roster decisions such as Tomasino with the logic that the coaches know more than we do.

Anyways there’s my final Porter post for the day.

The astounding level of nothingness that Tomasino was doing early in the year shouldn't be compared to the defensive situation for this team. I know you don't believe it but Tomasino was THAT bad early on. Luckily, he seems to be on the other side of that now.

Most of the people that comment on not understanding the defensive situation also seem resigned to the fact that we, the fans, are missing something since this is the second head coach to pressbox Fabbro.

 

[ShagDaddy]

Sticking a struggling young player on the ice at the NHL level isn’t the right approach if you have other options. It leads to frustration, more bad play and can destroy confidence. Sticking them in the press box for a couple of games while coaching them up during film and practice is the optimal approach in my opinion. What ever Brunette is doing with the scratches and coaching is ultimately providing positive results for the young guys, not just Tomasino but ALL of them.

Here is an interesting post by someone close to the team with some insight as to what is going on.

 

[herzausstein]

Sticking a struggling young player on the ice at the NHL level isn’t the right approach if you have other options. It leads to frustration, more bad play and can destroy confidence. Sticking them in the press box for a couple of games while coaching them up during film and practice is the optimal approach in my opinion. What ever Brunette is doing with the scratches and coaching is ultimately providing positive results for the young guys, not just Tomasino but ALL of them.

Here is an interesting post by someone close to the team with some insight as to what is going on.

Fabbro isnt overly physical but he is one of the better shot blocking players on the team. He is there with Carrier and McDonagh in Blocked Shots/60.

Is there a stat that tracks fanned passes? Just from watching the last couple games Fabbro played in, i seem to recall him fanning on a few passes.

Schenn leads the team in giveaways/60 and has identical special team usage so i guess hits and age win out there.

Barrie gets almost 3 mins of PP toi per game and has 3 whole PP points for the season. At this point why not give that to Fabbro or a forward and see if they canr do better?

 

[triggrman]

Sticking a struggling young player on the ice at the NHL level isn’t the right approach if you have other options. It leads to frustration, more bad play and can destroy confidence. Sticking them in the press box for a couple of games while coaching them up during film and practice is the optimal approach in my opinion. What ever Brunette is doing with the scratches and coaching is ultimately providing positive results for the young guys, not just Tomasino but ALL of them.

Here is an interesting post by someone close to the team with some insight as to what is going on.

McDonagh led in turnovers last season, Ekholm the season before. Remember if you clear it up the boards, it’s the safe play but also leds to turnovers. Fabbro is way better positionally than every but McDonagh.

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

McDonagh led in turnovers last season, Ekholm the season before. Remember if you clear it up the boards, it’s the safe play but also leds to turnovers. Fabbro is way better positionally than every but McDonagh.

Yeah, and the rest of that that breakdown is a little dubious...like avg hits, how many hits per game did Ryan Suter have? Frequently less than 1 per game over a season. Positional defensemen are always going to generate less than physical d-men. Carrier is also less than 1 per game. Schenn isn't but has been utter shit by the eye test.

Also the lack of special teams time is not necessarily indicative of anything. Josi eats the vast majority of PP time and Fabbro's PK time is basically a dead heat for 4th with Schenn and Stastney--meaning he's solidly one of the PK personnel when playing.

Also, he is actually tied with Josi for giveaways currently and Schenn is 1 giveaway worse per 60. Fabbro is 2nd among "regular" d-men in blocks per 60 and 3rd in takeaways per 60.

All I'm seeing here is that even cherry-picking stats doesn't really explain his playing time/lack of.

 

[Armourboy]

Hits mean nothing imo, at least not when it comes to defensive play. You can be physical in the corners and never make an actual hit ( hits are a subjective stat anyways based on where you are playing ).

The special teams play is not really up to him, its not like he is sitting there begging them not to play him on special teams. As said, despite his flaws, Josi eats most of the PP time and Barrie tends to get what is left. PK wise I don't see that as his fault either, the coach is making the decision on who to put out there and considering how bad our PK has been this season, maybe the coach making those decisions hasn't been that good.

The turnovers I get, but watching the games it certainly doesn't feel like his are in any greater quantity than anyone else, and considering he only plays 1 game out of every 3 or 4 how sharp can you really expect him to be?

I kind of feel like most of the arguments presented either don't matter ( hits ), are out of his hands ( PK/PP time ), or he is more or less being asked to be as sharp as players that are seeing the ice every game.

I've watched nearly every game, fancy stats or anything else you want to spit out can't get past the fact Fabbro is at least better than two of the Dmen on the ice, Barrie and Schenn.