GDT: Pre Season Game 5: Red Wings vs penguins 10/3/22 7:30 pm et (NHLN, BSDX)

[DoMakc]

#3 is maybe Ed on the PP goal that got tipped? He got caught alone with no help on his half of the ice. Shooter at the top of the circle and a forward at the top of the crease. He chose to advance on the shooter to maybe block rather than let the shooter walk in. 1 in 100 swinging tip off the shaft of the stick. I don't remember where and why the high forward was nowhere to be found. Option 2 there would have been to battle the forward in the crease screening Husso as the shooter advances. Even if he clears that forward out (without picking up a penalty), the shooter has an unobstructed path to the net. Neither option was really the best for Ed. He picked one and got beat.

It was Määttä, Edvinsson tied up another Penguin player in front of the net on a long post.

 

[dalem177]

Just watched the highlights. Did Bert cut his mop?

 

[norrisnick]

It was Määttä, Edvinsson tied up another Penguin player in front of the net on a long post.

You're right. I was going off of memory and didn't catch the switch they made. I remembered Maatta battling and Ed higher.

 

[TheMule93]

Just watched the highlights. Did Bert cut his mop?

yup

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

yup

His power is gone!

I'm expecting a bad season for Bert now.

 

[Gniwder]

Kubalik and Berggren are PERFECT for each other. Loving that line... if JV takes a step forward this season (already looks better in these two recent games) that line may be one of our best.

Problem is there's not enough roster space for both Veleno and Berggren even if they send Smith down.

 

[Barry Amsterdam]

His power is gone!

I'm expecting a bad season for Bert now.

Tyler Samson

 

[OneMoreTry]

i really thought once Copp signed, Larkin was days away from signing. I'm assuming the cap going up has something to do with some of these delays. I'd enjoy the season more knowing him and Bert are signed long-term at reasonable term and amounts.

I gotta say, I've been thinking about trading him.

Why? Couple reasons.

First, his calling card is speed and that's not getting better over time.

Second, his style of play and in consequence his numbers might've even benefitted from the team being so bad and the other team pushing us into our end rather than us pushing them. Being on defense and counterattacking, from deep, with speed, might be best for him.

Third, whenever we are in the oppositions end and things get a little stationary and creativity and especially precision are needed, he is more likely to turn it over than get something done.

Fourth, the previous point shows on the power play, too. Compared to his overall production, Larkin is just really bad on the PP. Raymond as a rookie had more PP points last season..

Fifth, when we become the better team, the hopefully dominant team, in the future.. the team that pressures the other team into their zone.. and in consequence, get more PP opportunities...he might hold us back.

Don't get me wrong, I like the guy. And if he signs the extension, I'll cheer for him to prove me wrong. I'm just not so sure..

 

[norrisnick]

I gotta say, I've been thinking about trading him.

Why? Couple reasons.

First, his calling card is speed and that's not getting better over time.

Second, his style of play and in consequence his numbers might've even benefitted from the team being so bad and the other team pushing us into our end rather than us pushing them. Being on defense and counterattacking, from deep, with speed, might be best for him.

Third, whenever we are in the oppositions end and things get a little stationary and creativity and especially precision are needed, he is more likely to turn it over than get something done.

Fourth, the previous point shows on the power play, too. Compared to his overall production, Larkin is just really bad on the PP. Raymond as a rookie had more PP points last season..

Fifth, when we become the better team, the hopefully dominant team, in the future.. the team that pressures the other team into their zone.. and in consequence, get more PP opportunities...he might hold us back.

Don't get me wrong, I like the guy. And if he signs the extension, I'll cheer for him to prove me wrong. I'm just not so sure..

Found the guy hogging all the Valentina Black Label....

 

[OneMoreTry]

...what?

 

[norrisnick]

...what?

This stuff... @jaster is gonna have to explain it.

 

[MBH]

Zadina has to score there, one way or another. That was the chance where the goalscorers score.

Agreed.

 

[OneMoreTry]

This stuff... @jaster is gonna have to explain it.

View attachment 590769

Hehe, sounds like you think I just wanted to stir things up. But that wasn't my intention. I'm just having doubts about Larkin getting a long term, big money contract.

 

[norrisnick]

Hehe, sounds like you think I just wanted to stir things up. But that wasn't my intention. I'm just having doubts about Larkin getting a long term, big money contract.

With the above viewpoints, I don't doubt that you do.

1. Good thing he's starting as one of the best skating players in the league.
2. IMO is a silly take. There is no reason that the ways Larkin has scored thus far in his career could not be replicated on a better team. Teams will always need to break out of their zone. Even the good ones.
3. I just don't see this. Besides, we shouldn't be stationary in the first place. Always be moving.
4. There is no reason Larkin has to play on the PP if there are players better suited for it on the roster. We haven't reached that level of roster depth yet.
5. Being on a team that draws PPs is never a bad thing.

 

[MBH]

This neglects to note that Hronek - Maatta got absolutely walked in the neutral zone on that first goal against. Yes it was a PP goal, but that was horrific gap control.

Two, Hronek had the single worst D giveaway right on to the stick of a Pen in the slot. All alone. Minor miracle it didn't turn into a goal.

Second biggest D mistake of the night would probably go to Lindstrom's shot on Husso... That was a bit of a trainwreck sequence by him.

#3 is maybe Ed on the PP goal that got tipped? He got caught alone with no help on his half of the ice. Shooter at the top of the circle and a forward at the top of the crease. He chose to advance on the shooter to maybe block rather than let the shooter walk in. 1 in 100 swinging tip off the shaft of the stick. I don't remember where and why the high forward was nowhere to be found. Option 2 there would have been to battle the forward in the crease screening Husso as the shooter advances. Even if he clears that forward out (without picking up a penalty), the shooter has an unobstructed path to the net. Neither option was really the best for Ed. He picked one and got beat.

And the forwards out there with the pairings are really what drives the chances. The D can move it up ice, but if the forwards don't do anything with it... hard to hold that against the D.

Maatta looked far worse than Hronek.

Everyone wants to make Seider better with Chiarot.
But Seider played all last year with Dekeyser and Staal, etc.

Chiarot is a better skater. Play him with Hronek. Play Maatta with Seider.

Maatta is smart - usually, but he had slow feet at 22 years old and isn't getting faster. Speed is also an issue for Hronek.
Pairing Maatta and Hronek is a poor use of resources.

 

[norrisnick]

Maatta looked far worse than Hronek.

Everyone wants to make Seider better with Chiarot.
But Seider played all last year with Dekeyser and Staal, etc.

Chiarot is a better skater. Play him with Hronek. Play Maatta with Seider.

Maatta is smart - usually, but he had slow feet at 22 years old and isn't getting faster. Speed is also an issue for Hronek.
Pairing Maatta and Hronek is a poor use of resources.

I don't disagree with the above. I think the main concern for the team might be asset utilization. Want to keep the icetime for both Chiarot and Maatta representative of their abilities. But I'm down to start the season that way (provided we get at least a game or two in with them split that way).

I'd give Ed a few weeks, couple months maybe to get his skates under him at NHL speed and then have him babysit Hronek.

 

[OneMoreTry]

1. Sure.
2. Yeah, but there is a difference between

being the better team, driving play, having to gain zone vs an opposing team already back in their zone most of the time

and

being the worse team, having less possession, defending most of the time

The better we become, the more likely are opposing teams to be cautious. Or defensive minded.

3. I see it too often. Especially on the PP - I cannot remember anyone else attempting so many ill-advised cross-ice passes over the years, getting intercepted so often.

I'm not saying he has hands of stone like other forwards we unfortunately had to play over the years ( ), but when I compare him with other players on that same level/status, it seems to me he could use more skill. Or skill isn't the right word, as he is able to do a lot of stuff coming in with speed. Patience and precision, maybe? It's not like he couldn't handle the puck.

4. I agree with you, in principle, that he shouldn't have to. But in reality, that's not how it works. How many forwards, who are team captains, have the long term contract and play line 1, don't play on the PP? None. They don't even get down to PP2, they are (of course) on PP1.

Which is usually not an issue, because the first line guys are the ones with the most overall skill, including PP. A situation like ours is uncommon.
5. Converting PPs with a much higher efficiency than ours would be even better.

 

[norrisnick]

1. Sure.
2. Yeah, but there is a difference between

being the better team, driving play, having to gain zone vs an opposing team already back in their zone most of the time

and

being the worse team, having less possession, defending most of the time

The better we become, the more likely are opposing teams to be cautious. Or defensive minded.

3. I see it too often. Especially on the PP - I cannot remember anyone else attempting so many ill-advised cross-ice passes over the years, getting intercepted so often.

I'm not saying he has hands of stone like other forwards we unfortunately had to play over the years ( ), but when I compare him with other players on that same level/status, it seems to me he could use more skill. Or skill isn't the right word, as he is able to do a lot of stuff coming in with speed. Patience and precision, maybe? It's not like he couldn't handle the puck.

4. I agree with you, in principle, that he shouldn't have to. But in reality, that's not how it works. How many forwards, who are team captains, have the long term contract and play line 1, don't play on the PP? None. They don't even get down to PP2, they are (of course) on PP1.

Which is usually not an issue, because the first line guys are the ones with the most overall skill, including PP. A situation like ours is uncommon.
5. Converting PPs with a much higher efficiency than ours would be even better.

Points on the rush are points on the rush. Teams that are good defending the rush are going to defend the rush regardless of who they're playing. Same for the inverse If they're bad at it, they're bad at it.

With the roster we are putting together (and a new coaching staff) Larkin doesn't necessarily have to be the distributer. He can be a different piece of the puzzle. I'm reasonably confident that our special teams will improve from recent history.

 

[OneMoreTry]

I hope you are right.

EDIT: My #1 hope for that improvement is not coaching changes or improvement from Larkin, it's Mo playing the point, more than anything else.

 

[acetehubernoob]

I just caught up with the game and this seems like an agenda take - one that's not based in anything that happened in this game.

Red Wings D
CF vs CA
Hronek 16 v 9
Chiarot 23 v 8
Seider 28 v 10
Lindstrom 12 v 14
Edvinsson 15 v 14
Matta 19 v 9


SF vs SA
Chiarot 12 v 4
Hronek 10 v 4
Lindstrom 6 v8
Seider 13 v 6
Maatta 11 v 4
Edvinsson 8 v 8

The Hronek-Maatta pairing tilted the ice. No goals for or against.
The Chiarot-Seider pairing tilted the ice and was out there for a GF
The Edinvsson-Lindstrom pairing was neutral in shots and -1 in goals.

In terms of High Danger chances, the Maatta-Hronek pairing was the best.

Hronek is just fine as a 2 RD - especially if his contracts can be held in line.

If Seider is what he is and Edvinsson turns into something we like, the Hronek is going to be just fine on the second pairing.

Not sure where the Hronek hate comes from but it's absurd.

Someone slap me, I must be dreaming. I AGREE WITH MBH?!?!?!?!?! XD

 

[Gniwder]

Speed is also an issue for Hronek.

Hronek can skate, playing AGAINST speed is his issue because of gap control and general positioning. (Maybe that's what you meant)

Now that he's paired with NHL level D (even if low end), it's apparent he wasn't much better defensively than the AHL level partners he had until recently. His game hasn't improved on either end of the ice since he got his most recent contract. Is making the same mistake over and over a Czech hockey thing?

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

I don't disagree with the above. I think the main concern for the team might be asset utilization. Want to keep the icetime for both Chiarot and Maatta representative of their abilities. But I'm down to start the season that way (provided we get at least a game or two in with them split that way).

I'd give Ed a few weeks, couple months maybe to get his skates under him at NHL speed and then have him babysit Hronek.

Or just trade Hronek.

I am tired of his defensive mistakes. He seems unfixable.

 

[dalem177]

With the above viewpoints, I don't doubt that you do.

1. Good thing he's starting as one of the best skating players in the league.
2. IMO is a silly take. There is no reason that the ways Larkin has scored thus far in his career could not be replicated on a better team. Teams will always need to break out of their zone. Even the good ones.
3. I just don't see this. Besides, we shouldn't be stationary in the first place. Always be moving.
4. There is no reason Larkin has to play on the PP if there are players better suited for it on the roster. We haven't reached that level of roster depth yet.
5. Being on a team that draws PPs is never a bad thing.

I am a Larkin booster. He's the first player I've been able to see come up from his first shift to now (who's still a Red Wing), and without being creepy, that's kindof cool. I think he's growing into his captaincy quite well.

As far as skills/value, I have to be realistic AND I have to be aware: since Z left, Larkin has not had a normal season to deal with on a good-to-great playoff-bound roster. He's been carrying a sub-par team that, IMO, drags on him a lot, and the Chicom wuflu panic seasons did not help at all on-ice or off.

Now I see all those barriers are gone and this team is his to make of what he can. If he gets a season or two of low player turnover, high-skill, solidly-coached effort around him and can't succeed, then I'll re-assess my opinion. Until then, I'm all aboard for the D-Boss snip show.

 

[14ari13]

Lol, I give up, kid is all over the ice tonight and actually got a nice assist but because the goalie made a ridiculous save off an instant reaction batted puck, he lacks a goal scorer's touch and needs that pointed out instead of the great all around game he showed tonight....News flash, Zadina was one of the best forwards tonight. If Adam freaking Erne could do anything competently, Zadina would have had another beauty assist as well.

It was not a save even less a ridiculous one. It was Zadina hitting the goalie on a great slam dunk chance. Even a old woman could score there, yet Zadina finds the way to hit the goalie.

Maatta looked far worse than Hronek.

Everyone wants to make Seider better with Chiarot.
But Seider played all last year with Dekeyser and Staal, etc.

Chiarot is a better skater. Play him with Hronek. Play Maatta with Seider.

Maatta is smart - usually, but he had slow feet at 22 years old and isn't getting faster. Speed is also an issue for Hronek.
Pairing Maatta and Hronek is a poor use of resources.

Seider does not have chemistry with Chiarot, at least in this small sample size. We will see. I think Seider had a bad game. He was targeted all game long.
Edvidson had maybe his best game so far. Solid.
I thought both goals were a bit soft by Husso.
Redmond was wrong about their 3rd goal. It was not luck, it was skill and great deflection.

 

[dalem177]

Redmond was wrong