Post Game Thead - The Our Best Defenseman Was a Teenager Edition

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Exactly. This team is not built the right way and the person who built it needs to start being recognized as part of the big problem here.

Agreed with you on that. Shero got a pass for a long time, but he's really starting to out himself as a farce.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

This year's team is built very well. If I were running it we would have 1 less middle pairing d-man to pay for 1 more middle 6 priced forward. And the goalie is a problem. But that isn't a bad team building strategy, he's just a bad goalie.

Good teams get rid of bad players.

 

[mpp9]

How do you obtain such players?

Via trade of course. No one knows who Shero's been talking to and what he's offered. But all I ask is that he's at least pursuing such options and not being content with Pascal Dupuis flanking Sid until he's 30.

If DB had used Iggy on Sid's RW last season, maybe we'd be talking about something else.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Good teams get rid of bad players.

how many bad players do we have?

 

[Zirakzigil]

If DB had used Iggy on Sid's RW last season, maybe we'd be talking about something else.

That I think is the key. I often believe sometimes this team wins in spite of what DB is doing. Dupuis needs to be taken off Crosbys line. First see how Bennett does for a decent stretch of games. If that doesnt work start looking at a trade.

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

Via trade of course. No one knows who Shero's been talking to and what he's offered. But all I ask is that he's at least pursuing such options and not being content with Pascal Dupuis flanking Sid until he's 30.

I think it's pretty unrealistic to trade for guys like that right now given that our likeliest trade pieces are unproven, older, or not particularly hot commodities. Teams don't just give them up.

 

[mpp9]

I think it's pretty unrealistic to trade for guys like that right now given that our likeliest trade pieces are unproven, older, or not particularly hot commodities. Teams don't just give them up.

Lee Stempniak would bring more in terms of what I'm talking about than Dupuis. Iggy would have too if given that role regularly when he was moved here.

I'll use Chris Stewart as an example because he's Sid's Neal. But obviously that's a dream scenario.

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

Desiring Stempniak is pretty much textbook "grass is always greener" mentality.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

how many bad players do we have?

I'd venture to say Glass is pretty terrible, the first couple of games aside. The first three games do not erase a full season and playoffs of total ineptitude, in my opinion. Niskanen is pretty well useless.

Two players don't ruin a team, but two players and a coaching staff (Martin aside), are a pretty big hindrance.

 

[Richard]

I'm totally confused. I am as pessimistic as anyone about certain things; Fleury, Disco, Adams/glass....

However, we played a sucky goalie and a team playing their home opener.


Whats the big deal? still 78 games left.


I sound like the grumpy old man who has watched too much hockey hahaha.

I just watch games for the skill and passion until about March (When the Pens have a good team). We have a long way to go.


Plus, seeing as how we have at least 5 top 4 quality dmen in the minors and we have a President Trophy challenging team at the NHL level; how can anyone complain about ANYTHING haha.


Dmen are the most prized possession an NHL team can have. We have like 12 of them...

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Good teams get rid of bad players.

There is a huge in between here.

I don't think anyone, including you, is saying Dupes and Kunitz suck. They are the kind of depth guys who provide secondary scoring for championship teams.

The problem is, they are being counted on to be primary scorers and guys who can help carry the offense when Crosby and Malkin aren't plying well. As we sadly know by now, those two go as Crosby goes. They will never be the kind of guys to pick him up and carry him while he is struggling.

They will hit a big streak soon and play well and complaints will die down, but in the end, even the "Dupes/Kunitz as first line wingers" supporters have trepidations about that line come playoff time (even if they won't admit it).

 

[Sh00terMcGavin]

Isn't Jose Theodore still available? I have no idea how this would work from a cap perspective, however.

 

[mpp9]

Desiring Stempniak is pretty much textbook "grass is always greener" mentality.

Na. It's recognizing that there are plenty of other players capable of improving Sid's RW. That line needs a guy who can create off the rush, while still competing in the corners.

 

[IcedCapp]

A few things to remember

1) Dupuis and Kunitz looked great at the start of last season(minus Kunitz's miserable first week) and slowed down towards the end of the year. I don't think enough people put enough stock in how ahead THAT LINE was over the rest of the NHL. They practiced together non-stop. Other players didn't play/practice, played overseas, played in the A, etc... They were more in-sync than their competition. This year, the have no head start: everyone had training camp, practices, etc... I don't expect Dupuis to look like a great top-6 player at all this year. There's a little thing called variance. It's more likely that Dupuis (and Kunitz, as far as goal scoring goes) experienced a weird bout of statistical noise in a shortened season than it is that they drastically improved in their mid-30s.

2) On the flip side of that: Glass sucked last year, but his shooting % was unsustainably low. So that he'd score more this year shouldn't be a surprise. I'd hesitate saying too much has changed, yet, but he's certainly passed the eye test through the first 4 games.

 

[mpp9]

There is a huge in between here.

I don't think anyone, including you, is saying Dupes and Kunitz suck. They are the kind of depth guys who provide secondary scoring for championship teams.

The problem is, they are being counted on to be primary scorers and guys who can help carry the offense when Crosby and Malkin aren't plying well. As we sadly know by now, those two go as Crosby goes. They will never be the kind of guys to pick him up and carry him while he is struggling.

They will hit a big streak soon and play well and complaints will die down, but in the end, even the "Dupes/Kunitz as first line wingers" supporters have trepidations about that line come playoff time (even if they won't admit it).

I like this explanation the best. Sticky this ****.

 

[billybudd]

I'm a lot less concerned that Kunitz won't snap out of this...whatever it is...in a couple games than I am that, in a broader, more long-term sense, he's stopped going to the net and started exclusively doing the Bett Hull "looking for holes" thing. There's nothing in his SPC that says he can't do a little of both.

If a rebound gets banged in at even strength on that line in these past couple years, he's the least likely of the three to do it. The opposite would have been true when he was acquired.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

I like this explanation the best. Sticky this ****.

You like the explanation because it makes sense, and it's the truth.

 

[mpp9]

You like the explanation because it makes sense, and it's the truth.

It's how Ray Shero should be looking at the situation. They're fine for the regular season. But not enough against the best the league has to offer when the games start to matter.

They're support players. No more, no less.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

It's how Ray Shero should be looking at the situation. They're fine for the regular season. But not enough against the best the league has to offer when the games start to matter.

They're support players. No more, no less.

Shero should be doing several things that he's not actually doing. Like actively looking for a replacement for Fleury (Bernier would have been a Hell of a pick up this summer, especially for what he actually fetched), and more. At least Martin's hiring seems like a bit of a warning flag to Bylsma, though I don't know if it matters. Bylsma's a likable guy, but a dunce as a coach.

 

[Shockmaster]

It's how Ray Shero should be looking at the situation. They're fine for the regular season. But not enough against the best the league has to offer when the games start to matter.

They're support players. No more, no less.

Maybe we should call it the Peyton Manning line then.

 

[Zirakzigil]

Being from Calgary I have always thought Stempniak would be a better wing option than Dupuis for Crosby. However I dont think you get him now. Stempniak has been the perfect compliment for Monahan and Sven, it wouldnt surprise me if hes given a new contract now.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

There is a huge in between here.

I don't think anyone, including you, is saying Dupes and Kunitz suck. They are the kind of depth guys who provide secondary scoring for championship teams.

The problem is, they are being counted on to be primary scorers and guys who can help carry the offense when Crosby and Malkin aren't plying well. As we sadly know by now, those two go as Crosby goes. They will never be the kind of guys to pick him up and carry him while he is struggling.

They will hit a big streak soon and play well and complaints will die down, but in the end, even the "Dupes/Kunitz as first line wingers" supporters have trepidations about that line come playoff time (even if they won't admit it).

Yeah, I get all that Jiggy but I meant Fleury as the "bad player" here.

Isn't Jose Theodore still available? I have no idea how this would work from a cap perspective, however.

Didn't he sign with Avangard Omsk, or did that deal never go down? I know Garon signed with them, for sure.

It's how Ray Shero should be looking at the situation. They're fine for the regular season. But not enough against the best the league has to offer when the games start to matter.

They're support players. No more, no less.

Of course, when Ray Shero actually did get the help Crosby needed, the idiot coach turned him into a complementary left-winger!

All the more reason Shero is now the problem, because he's hitched his wagon to said idiot coach.

 

[wgknestrick]

I'd venture to say Glass is pretty terrible, the first couple of games aside. The first three games do not erase a full season and playoffs of total ineptitude, in my opinion. Niskanen is pretty well useless.

Two players don't ruin a team, but two players and a coaching staff (Martin aside), are a pretty big hindrance.

My bad player list:

1. Glass
2. Adams
3. Vitale
4. Orpik (hit hitting does not make him any better at preventing goals)
5. Nisky (more inconsistent than bad)
6. Engelland (watching games now, so that moves him down the list)

Goaltenders:
Zatkoff? (not going to judge off of one game, but still was terrible)

 

[Waffle Fries]

So Kunitz suddenly isn't "skilled"?

I never would exactly call him a "skilled" player. I think he's a top six winger, but I would not refer to him and his style of play as "skilled"

I have no problem with Sid playing with Kunitz OR Dupuis. I hate him playing with both. Its not even just a quality thing. They are redundant. They have the same basic strengths and the same basic weaknesses. The issue comes against teams who can exploit that weakness. That is: they cannot create on their own against top defenses. If you stop Crosby, you pretty much stop them. That's fine against most teams because most teams have a very hard time stopping Crosby. But when you go up against teams with guys like Chara and Bergeron, you very quickly run into a problem. Is Bennett better than Dupuis? As a whole, no not yet. But if Sid is getting smothered and taken out of a play, I trust Bennett and Kunitz to make a play together a hell of a lot more than I trust Dupuis and Kunitz to do it.

I completely agree with this (although I do think Bennett is probably better than Dupuis right now)

Nobody wants to see Sid with bargain-bin wingers, but that's the reality of the cap and how this team is built. Dupuis and Kunitz work with Sid, as well... At least, the majority of the time. I'd love to have Bobby Ryan, Corey Perry, or Zach Parise on his wing, but it just isn't gonna happen. Dupuis is a perfect 3rd line winger, but unless Bylsma (lol) is willing to swap Bennett and Dupuis when Neal is healthy, that's not going to happen.

I don't buy into the cap excuse at all. Especially when we have a 900k winger who would be a perfect fit on that line. There's plenty of good quality wingers out there who make around the same amount as Kunitz/Dupuis do. I really don't believe that for a combined 7.6M Kunitz and Dupuis are the absolute best Shero could do.

Isn't Jose Theodore still available? I have no idea how this would work from a cap perspective, however.

It wouldn't, unless of course we got rid of Niskanen and/or he was willing to take exactly Jeff Zatkoff's salary.

A few things to remember

1) Dupuis and Kunitz looked great at the start of last season(minus Kunitz's miserable first week) and slowed down towards the end of the year. I don't think enough people put enough stock in how ahead THAT LINE was over the rest of the NHL. They practiced together non-stop. Other players didn't play/practice, played overseas, played in the A, etc... They were more in-sync than their competition. This year, the have no head start: everyone had training camp, practices, etc... I don't expect Dupuis to look like a great top-6 player at all this year. There's a little thing called variance. It's more likely that Dupuis (and Kunitz, as far as goal scoring goes) experienced a weird bout of statistical noise in a shortened season than it is that they drastically improved in their mid-30s.

2) On the flip side of that: Glass sucked last year, but his shooting % was unsustainably low. So that he'd score more this year shouldn't be a surprise. I'd hesitate saying too much has changed, yet, but he's certainly passed the eye test through the first 4 games.

Exactly. I don't think people realized how much of a head start KCD had on everyone else last season.

I even talked about this last year. If it weren't for the lockout, I feel like things would have been totally different. KCD was practicing together and therefore had a big head start on the rest of the league, who really didn't have much of a training camp. This made that line look much better comparatively to competition than it would have otherwise and distorted how good they really were. Because of this, Bylsma became extra enamored with the "best line in hockey"


Let's not forget that during development camp two years ago it appeared as though Bylsma's plan was to keep KMN together because he talked about how Bennett was going to get looks on Sid's line it camp. The lockout, and the advantage that we had because Kunitz and Dupuis were practicing with Crosby while Geno was in Russia changed all that.

 

[Til the End of Time]

so fleury is not a bad player?