Post Game Thead - The Our Best Defenseman Was a Teenager Edition

[Sidney the Kidney]

People are wishing a career-ending injury on the guy. That's pretty much as close to hate as you can get. Pretty ****ing pathetic, too.

Nobody wants to see Sid with bargain-bin wingers, but that's the reality of the cap and how this team is built. Dupuis and Kunitz work with Sid, as well... At least, the majority of the time. I'd love to have Bobby Ryan, Corey Perry, or Zach Parise on his wing, but it just isn't gonna happen. Dupuis is a perfect 3rd line winger, but unless Bylsma (lol) is willing to swap Bennett and Dupuis when Neal is healthy, that's not going to happen.

I disagree with the bolded. You know why that statement is incorrect and the cap has nothing to do with why Sid plays with Dupuis every single shift? you mentioned it yourself: Beau Bennett. He makes LESS than Dupuis, yet Bylsma chooses to play Dupuis ahead of him.

So while it's true that hoping for a $9 million Corey Perry might be out of cap reality, there are other cheap alternatives but the stubborn idiot behind the bench simply won't go with them. Instead, he wants his "best line in the league" together forever. Hell, Shero somehow found cap space to bring in Iginla last year, and we know how often Iginla/Crosby was a line under Bylsma.

 

[IcedCapp]

There is a huge in between here.

I don't think anyone, including you, is saying Dupes and Kunitz suck. They are the kind of depth guys who provide secondary scoring for championship teams.

The problem is, they are being counted on to be primary scorers and guys who can help carry the offense when Crosby and Malkin aren't plying well. As we sadly know by now, those two go as Crosby goes. They will never be the kind of guys to pick him up and carry him while he is struggling.

They will hit a big streak soon and play well and complaints will die down, but in the end, even the "Dupes/Kunitz as first line wingers" supporters have trepidations about that line come playoff time (even if they won't admit it).

that's not fair

 

[JTG]

If Jokinen-Malkin-Neal do as well as I believe they can, they will be getting the matchups come playoff time. That should at least make Dupuis and Kunitz look better. I also think the scoring threat on the 3rd line now makes it hard to key in on that one line.

 

[mpp9]

If Jokinen-Malkin-Neal do as well as I believe they can, they will be getting the matchups come playoff time. That should at least make Dupuis and Kunitz look better. I also think the scoring threat on the 3rd line now makes it hard to key in on that one line.

It's still goofy not to maximize your best player's impact in a playoff run. Bennett would help him immensely. And you lose next to nothing moving Dupuis down.

If Bennett is just average while Neal's out, fair enough. I can see why DB wouldn't change things. But last night Bennett was our best winger. If he can continue that, DB better give him a chance with Sid.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Exactly. This team is not built the right way and the person who built it needs to start being recognized as part of the big problem here.

Unfortunately people still give Shero a free pass because of the Cup and 3 great trades.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

I think it's pretty unrealistic to trade for guys like that right now given that our likeliest trade pieces are unproven, older, or not particularly hot commodities. Teams don't just give them up.

It wasn't too long ago that Stew was a healthy scratch in STL. Also Seto was traded for a 2nd this summer. I know we don't have a 2nd this year but Murray was a key contributor to the Pens "success" last year.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

so fleury is not a bad player?

Yeah, that list of bad Penguins players was definitely missing the guy who belongs right at the top.

If Jokinen-Malkin-Neal do as well as I believe they can, they will be getting the matchups come playoff time. That should at least make Dupuis and Kunitz look better. I also think the scoring threat on the 3rd line now makes it hard to key in on that one line.

I doubt this very very much, JTG. If our second line lights it up, how many more points would Malkin need to produce over Crosby for teams to game plan more for 71 rather than 87?

Reputations being what they are in the NHL, Crosby will always be the feared one. He's the engine that revs this team. Everybody knows it. Our coach doesn't exactly disguise it, either. Teams will prepare for us like they always do.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I dunno... it was Malkin's line that (mostly) drew the tough matchups against Boston. Not Crosby's.

I would speculate further from there... but I don't want to get yelled at for being a bad fan, or something.

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

It wasn't too long ago that Stew was a healthy scratch in STL. Also Seto was traded for a 2nd this summer. I know we don't have a 2nd this year but Murray was a key contributor to the Pens "success" last year.

You keep equating healthy scratch with "on the block" but we all know that's a stupid inference. Winnipeg's second rounder beats Pittsburgh's in value regardless so the Setoguchi trade is a moot point.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I dunno... it was Malkin's line that (mostly) drew the tough matchups against Boston. Not Crosby's.

I would speculate further from there... but I don't want to get yelled at for being a bad fan, or something.

IIRC, Malkin got Chara and Crosby got Bergeron. Boston used it's top D pairing against Malkin and their top shutdown line against Crosby. MOST teams will probably game plan that way against us, because no other team can claim their top two centers are both franchise-player-worthy.

Of course, every team's personnel is different and teams are top-heavy in different areas.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

You keep equating healthy scratch with "on the block" but we all know that's a stupid inference. Winnipeg's second rounder beats Pittsburgh's in value regardless so the Setoguchi trade is a moot point.

I never said Stew was on "on the block". I said he was being a healthy scratch and STL had a logjam of forwards. Stl has since made room and he's returned to his 30G pace. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that his value was much lower then than it is now.

Yes WPG's 2nd is better then ours but with all the assets Shero moved last year, he could have easily beaten WPG's 2nd. Hell he gave two 2nds for Murray and one of your top 3-5 prospects for Brendan ****ing Morrow.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I dunno... it was Malkin's line that (mostly) drew the tough matchups against Boston. Not Crosby's.

I would speculate further from there... but I don't want to get yelled at for being a bad fan, or something.

Who was Bergeron on? That's really the key.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I tend to agree but it sort of depends on who you ask.

A lot of people would defer to Chara, there.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Both of their lines were useless because of piss poor construction.

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

I never said Stew was on "on the block". I said he was being a healthy scratch and STL had a logjam of forwards. Stl has since made room and he's returned to his 30G pace. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that his value was much lower then than it is now.

Yes WPG's 2nd is better then ours but with all the assets Shero moved last year, he could have easily beaten WPG's 2nd. Hell he gave two 2nds for Murray and one of your top 3-5 prospects for Brendan ****ing Morrow.

So why does his value being low matter at all if he's not available for trade?

The Murray and Morrow trades happened at the deadline, when prices are at their highest. Setoguchi was moved on the first or second day of free agency, when prices are arguably at their lowest for run of the mill players. Comparing them in terms of raw value is foolish. Also, beating Winnipeg for Setoguchi would have meant an overpayment for a guy who might add something to this team but in and of himself wouldn't be much of a difference maker. Would you have preferred giving up a first or two seconds or Joe Morrow for Setoguchi?

 

[Shady Machine]

Who was Bergeron on? That's really the key.

What about that chara guy? I hear he's pretty good

 

[Ogrezilla]

What about that chara guy? I hear he's pretty good

he is. Bergeron is still better at shutting down a single player. Chara doesn't follow anyone around all 200 feet of the ice. Bergeron does.

 

[Tender Rip]

Who was Bergeron on? That's really the key.

That's like saying 'who was Zetterberg on' and discounting Lidstrom. Chara being mostly on Malkin says a lot.

It is hardly as if Lucic Krejci Horton was a poor line either... leading the Bruins in points, and all playoff players in plus/minus.

 

[mpp9]

Yeah Boston definitely thought of Malkin as the more dangerous player in that series. CJ even said so in post game PCs. Praising Malkin's play and not mentioning Sid very much. Kind of sad when Sid's usual linemates were healthy and ready to go, and Malkin had a rotation of a miscast Iggy, Cooke and TK.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

that's not fair

You know what isn't fair?

Zoomies.

 

[Ogrezilla]

That's like saying 'who was Zetterberg on' and discounting Lidstrom. Chara being mostly on Malkin says a lot.

It is hardly as if Lucic Krejci Horton was a poor line either... leading the Bruins in points, and all playoff players in plus/minus.

Chara and Lidstrom are better at shutting down a line. The best way to shut down a single player is with a center to shadow them. A d-man simply can't do it because they can't go out of position the way a center can.

Chara being on Malkin while Bergeron was on Sid tells me that Boston saw Malkin's line as the bigger threat, but Sid as the most important player to shut down.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

So why does his value being low matter at all if he's not available for trade?

The Murray and Morrow trades happened at the deadline, when prices are at their highest. Setoguchi was moved on the first or second day of free agency, when prices are arguably at their lowest for run of the mill players. Comparing them in terms of raw value is foolish. Also, beating Winnipeg for Setoguchi would have meant an overpayment for a guy who might add something to this team but in and of himself wouldn't be much of a difference maker. Would you have preferred giving up a first or two seconds or Joe Morrow for Setoguchi?

You don't seem to understand the difference between "on the block", "available for a hockey trade", and "untouchable". Stew could have been moved in a good hockey trade. IIRC, I argued that something around Orpik would have made a lot of sense.

I sure as hell would rather have gotten Seto for Morrow than B Morrow. Shero moved J Morrow and two 2nds for players that did not help the team and were not re-signed. Add moving TK at the draft and still holding onto Nisky and that's 5 assets that could have been used to get a top 6 winger to replace Dupuis.

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

You don't seem to understand the difference between "on the block", "available for a hockey trade", and "untouchable". Stew could have been moved in a good hockey trade. IIRC, I argued that something around Orpik would have made a lot of sense.

I sure as hell would rather have gotten Seto for Morrow than B Morrow. Shero moved J Morrow and two 2nds for players that did not help the team and were not re-signed. Add moving TK at the draft and still holding onto Nisky and that's 5 assets that could have been used to get a top 6 winger to replace Dupuis.

I know the difference, but you don't seem to understand that Chris Stewart was probably never available for any kind of trade anywhere other than your mind. It's beyond cheap and dishonest to constantly say Shero should have traded for Stewart when in all likelihood no one could have traded for him. Do you really not think the Blues got all sorts of legitimate "hockey trade" proposals for Stewart at the time? And who cares if you think something based around Orpik might've worked? That's about as relevant to the situation as what I ate for breakfast this morning.

I agree that Setoguchi might've been a better return for Joe Morrow.

 

[SHOOTANDSCORE]

Ahhh... but did he look John Curry-bad?

Where's Pechursky when we need him

 

[JTG]

It's still goofy not to maximize your best player's impact in a playoff run. Bennett would help him immensely. And you lose next to nothing moving Dupuis down.

If Bennett is just average while Neal's out, fair enough. I can see why DB wouldn't change things. But last night Bennett was our best winger. If he can continue that, DB better give him a chance with Sid.

I don't disagree with what you're saying.

Yeah, that list of bad Penguins players was definitely missing the guy who belongs right at the top.




I doubt this very very much, JTG. If our second line lights it up, how many more points would Malkin need to produce over Crosby for teams to game plan more for 71 rather than 87?

Reputations being what they are in the NHL, Crosby will always be the feared one. He's the engine that revs this team. Everybody knows it. Our coach doesn't exactly disguise it, either. Teams will prepare for us like they always do.

It wouldn't be about Sid or Geno. It would be about the line as a whole. If Jokinen and Neal mesh with Geno like I think they will, it has potential to be the most complete and lethal line in hockey this season. They will need to be respected more than KCD